Tubby's Problem

[BFritz]

Recruiting aside, I'm talking about his problem coaching. He tries to make his players play his style of basketball instead of coaching to the players' strengths. That's why, even if he learns how to recruit, UK will still never be any good under his coaching.

They can fire everyone under him, all his recruiters, everyone, but until he learns that you can't coach everyone the same (I'm not even real sure who you could coach his way), he'll always be a failure as a head coach.

Amen, Merry Christmas, Hallalujah,, where's the tylenol

[rallo316]

bring John Pelfrey home.

[Mr. Baseball]

I agree with BFritz. I think Tubby has the "Bill Curry" syndrome of making players play to his style rather than a player's strength. In case you do not know...the Bill Curry Syndrome is making a player like Tim Couch run the option! Back to the subject. If Randolph Morris did not get his hands on the ball no one knows what to do offensively. Furthermore, no one on UK's team seems to have much of a basketball IQ. I love the hard nosed style of Jodie Meeks.

[braves_fan_10]

bring John Pelfrey home.
HA....You are a real funny guy.

[Meaty]

bring John Pelfrey home.

Not right now... he has to prove he can win first!

[moofer]

Is that not what Bob Knight does? Make people play his style of ball? None is tryin to fire him.

[BCF4L]

He recruits people that he sees can play his style of ball. He doesn't bring in 300 pound players and try to get them to play an uptempo game (just an analogy). Not saying Tubby's style is a bad style, it just doesn't fit the players he has. I see UK as more of a run and gun type of team. Well they have the athletes for it, just don't have the pure shooters.

[thecavemaster]

The first few years at UK OTS was basking
in the glow of what Rick Pitino had
accomplished with the program. Now, OTS
cannot get top notch players to commit to
UK, cannot "coach up" the talent he recruits
to maintain a Top 5 status program. Look at
Ohio State, North Carolina, Kansas, Memphis...
these teams have quick, great shooting guards,
"bigs" that are mobile and athletic, a "push
the ball" mentality... It is time for OTS
to leave. Period.

[SportsFan80]

How do you see UK being a run and gun team when they couldnt run with Kansas last night. They were tired and wore down, theres no way this team can win play run and gun. You are right about when u said they dont have the pure shooters. Meeks is the closest thing to that and he is by far the closest thing UK has to being a pure shooter. I was really trying to come around and support Tubby but with every game I watch and the more posts i read about him, I really believe its time for him to go whether he wants to or not. I saw the highlights of his press conference after the game last night and what Rick Majerus and the other guy had to say about it, and they are right, Tubby is a motivator to the players. That may be true, but in no way is he head coach material. The part that I thought was funny was when Majerus said he felt sorry for Tubby because of what he has went through this season. What he doesnt understand and what no one that claims to be a fan understands is that Tubby is destroying the history and tradition of UK basketball. I know college basketball is more competitive these days and there is not one dominate team out there, and that any team can win on any given night, thats beside the point, at least other schools like UNC, Duke, Kansas, etc.... are still getting high profile recruits, while UK gets stuck with mid major type players. Tubby says he doesnt recruit high profile players because they just leave after one year of playing, well I smell some contradiction with that. Point being is, he is supposed to be this great mentor and motivator, couldnt he motivate the players to stay longer than one year. That itself puts a hole in his theory of recruiting high profile recruits. Seems to me Tyler Hansbrough has stayed longer than one year, and many other big names have stayed longer than one year as well. Like someone said earlier in the thread, Tubby needs to learn to coach to players strengths and not stick with his my way or the highway philosophy.

[jammin' jamey]

Tubby says he doesnt recruit high profile players because they just leave after one year of playing, well I smell some contradiction with that. Point being is, he is supposed to be this great mentor and motivator, couldnt he motivate the players to stay longer than one year. That itself puts a hole in his theory of recruiting high profile recruits. Seems to me Tyler Hansbrough has stayed longer than one year, and many other big names have stayed longer than one year as well. Like someone said earlier in the thread, Tubby needs to learn to coach to players strengths and not stick with his my way or the highway philosophy.

I agree he needs to throw away his "my way or the highway" philosophy. Another case in point, Obrzut, who plays like other big men from Europe, he wanted to play like a forward and Tubby wanted him with his back to the basket and Tubby basically wasted four years confusing Obrzut and wasted a scholarship, after taking a chance on bringing him in from Fordam. Fordam! Who steals recruits from Fordam?

Anyway, I think Tubby needs to focus more on the short-term than the long-term. Recruit guys that are gonna be impact players now and not 3 years from now and keep reloading. It's working for Billy Ball in Florida. Problem though is you mix players like Morris and Crawford that come in with big expectations along with big egos and chemistry problems.

Where's the middle ground at?

Find me one player listed in the Top 10/20 by respected recruiting outfits that is looking to restore integrity to college basketball by foregoing millions of NBA dollars and staying four years to earn a degree and prepare for life after basketball, when all he see's is dollar signs and that he has already arrived. That's hard to find. Maybe Hansborogh is one of those guys. Do you think Jai Lucas or Patrick Patterson are gonna be one of those guys?

It's about finding diamonds in the rough like Jodie Meeks and these days, it's hard to find guys like that flying under the radar. And of course, not making mistakes like Ramel Bradley over Chris Lofton.

[FBALL]

I agree he needs to throw away his "my way or the highway" philosophy. Another case in point, Obrzut, who plays like other big men from Europe, he wanted to play like a forward and Tubby wanted him with his back to the basket and Tubby basically wasted four years confusing Obrzut and wasted a scholarship, after taking a chance on bringing him in from Fordam. Fordam! Who steals recruits from Fordam?

Anyway, I think Tubby needs to focus more on the short-term than the long-term. Recruit guys that are gonna be impact players now and not 3 years from now and keep reloading. It's working for Billy Ball in Florida. Problem though is you mix players like Morris and Crawford that come in with big expectations along with big egos and chemistry problems.

Where's the middle ground at?

Find me one player listed in the Top 10/20 by respected recruiting outfits that is looking to restore integrity to college basketball by foregoing millions of NBA dollars and staying four years to earn a degree and prepare for life after basketball, when all he see's is dollar signs and that he has already arrived. That's hard to find. Maybe Hansborogh is one of those guys. Do you think Jai Lucas or Patrick Patterson are gonna be one of those guys?

It's about finding diamonds in the rough like Jodie Meeks and these days, it's hard to find guys like that flying under the radar. And of course, not making mistakes like Ramel Bradley over Chris Lofton.
Patterson won't be.

[jammin' jamey]

Patterson won't be.

Exactly...:thanks:

[FBALL]

Patterson could very well be the worst thing to ever happen to Smith. If he doesn't sign him all of the critics will be screaming. If he does sign with UK and doesn't turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread the critics will be screaming. Its a no win situation.

[jammin' jamey]

Patterson could very well be the worst thing to ever happen to Smith. If he doesn't sign him all of the critics will be screaming. If he does sign with UK and doesn't turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread the critics will be screaming. Its a no win situation.

Great stuff...Good point. :thumpsup:

Maybe the best thing would be for Tubby to leave? I hear the Charlotte Bobcats are hiring, that seems to always raise the rumor mill about Smith.

[golfman42]

We need a coach like John Calipari who would bring back the forty minutes of **** back to UK

[jammin' jamey]

We need a coach like John Calipari who would bring back the forty minutes of **** back to UK

I thought that was Nolan Richardson?

[SportsFan80]

Patterson or Lucas either one aren't coming to UK, thats pretty much the fact. Anyone thinking otherwise is crazy. From what I hear, Patterson isnt all hes been hyped to be anyway. He played with Mayo and Mayo was the man on that team, the man that set up Patterson to look good. Anyway, you are right about Meeks, its tough to find those types of players. I wish we could find 4 more players with his skills, passion and determination. Oh, and the right coach to guide them.

[alfus21]

Patterson or Lucas either one aren't coming to UK, thats pretty much the fact. .

According to?

[SportsFan80]

According to anyone who has any sense, and doesnt listen to you.

[corndog23]

Patterson or Lucas either one aren't coming to UK, thats pretty much the fact. Anyone thinking otherwise is crazy. From what I hear, Patterson isnt all hes been hyped to be anyway. He played with Mayo and Mayo was the man on that team, the man that set up Patterson to look good. Anyway, you are right about Meeks, its tough to find those types of players. I wish we could find 4 more players with his skills, passion and determination. Oh, and the right coach to guide them.

You are wrong in so many ways. "From what I hear"??? Are you serious?? So im guessing that means you havent watched Patterson play AT ALL. Well, ive seen him probably 10 times, and from what i SEE, he is the real deal. His rankings in the recruiting index shot up over the SUMMER circuit, BEFORE OJ Mayo came to Huntington, if anything, Mayo has hindered Patterson's numbers by being such a gunner. Oh yeh, It is no fact that JL and PPat will not be at UK, it is probably more realistic that they WILL be at UK next year...wait and see...

[corndog23]

According to anyone who has any sense, and doesnt listen to you.
:)

[alfus21]

According to anyone who has any sense, and doesnt listen to you.

There's a very good chance of Lucas coming to UK according to people close with the Lucas family. Patterson will be between UK and Florida. I don't expect much, but I do expect you at least post a link if you call something a "fact". Don't get personal with me, I was just asking for your source.

[SportsFan80]

I didnt think you people were that foolish, but apparently i was wrong. My source is just plain old common sense, something that apparently left most of the people on here along time ago, and seeing UK lose in the second round, AGAIN. Along with the style Tubby plays, and the idea that u cant always go by what a recruits family says. If they were smart they wouldnt come to UK just to get to ride the bench and lose 10 games every season and have to suffer through playing Tubby Ball.

[FBALL]

I didnt think you people were that foolish, but apparently i was wrong. My source is just plain old common sense, something that apparently left most of the people on here along time ago, and seeing UK lose in the second round, AGAIN. Along with the style Tubby plays, and the idea that u cant always go by what a recruits family says. If they were smart they wouldnt come to UK just to get to ride the bench and lose 10 games every season and have to suffer through playing Tubby Ball.
How is this for common sense. Playing Time!!!! Immediate playing time at one of the top programs in the country. It is the reason why Hansbrough and Wright are in Chapel Hill instead of Lexington right now.

Put down your obvious bias against Tubby Smith and use some of that common sense you are speaking of. Calipari is just a cheap Pitino clone. Let it go. Its not a good fit.

[Bengal Cat]

I agree with BFritz. I think Tubby has the "Bill Curry" syndrome of making players play to his style rather than a player's strength. In case you do not know...the Bill Curry Syndrome is making a player like Tim Couch run the option! Back to the subject. If Randolph Morris did not get his hands on the ball no one knows what to do offensively. Furthermore, no one on UK's team seems to have much of a basketball IQ. I love the hard nosed style of Jodie Meeks.

Bill Curry had Tim Couch running the option....ROFL.
I just had to throw that in.......go ahead with the Tubby talk now.

[Panther Thunder]

bring John Pelfrey home.
pelphrey lol

[pikevillepanther#32]

Tubby is really not that bad of a coach. If UK could could get a recruter UK would be pretty good caz Tubby is not that bad of a coach

[jammin' jamey]

Patterson or Lucas either one aren't coming to UK, thats pretty much the fact. Anyone thinking otherwise is crazy. From what I hear, Patterson isnt all hes been hyped to be anyway. He played with Mayo and Mayo was the man on that team, the man that set up Patterson to look good. Anyway, you are right about Meeks, its tough to find those types of players. I wish we could find 4 more players with his skills, passion and determination. Oh, and the right coach to guide them.

That's what you hear and here's what I know...

Patterson was the reigning West Virginia Player of the Year before OJ Mayo arrived this season at Huntington High. Patterson had his best season — 17 points, 12 rebounds and 4 blocked shots per game this year — and was selected to the McDonald’s All-American team with Mayo. But he was second in state player of the year voting this season to Mayo.

BTW, here's a link if you think I'm wrong.

http://herald-dispatch.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070310/SPORTS02/70310030

[jammin' jamey]

I will add this...

If Patterson and Lucas go elsewhere, Kentucky basketball stares at an uncertain future. According to the Prep Stars recruiting service, no player in its list of the top 25 high school juniors is considering UK. The highest-rated junior listing Kentucky is No. 30 Kevin Jones, a forward from Mt. Vernon, N.Y.

Ouch...Of course there's time to correct this, but who and how?

http://www.kentucky.com/276/story/21509.html

[BFritz]

Tubby is really not that bad of a coach. If UK could could get a recruter UK would be pretty good caz Tubby is not that bad of a coach
He has no idea how to coach in situations or to have his players play to their strengths and against the other team's weaknesses

[FBALL]

Its amazing how a guy that knows absolutely nothing about baskeball is one of the most respected coaches in the country. That is everywhere except at his own school.

[thecavemaster]

Its amazing how a guy that knows absolutely nothing about baskeball is one of the most respected coaches in the country. That is everywhere except at his own school.

If Fan A suggests that Tubby knows nothing about
basketball, of course, this is ridiculous.
If Fan B suggests that the overall direction of
the UK program circa March 2007 is trending steadily
downward, and Fan B presents the "firsts" list that
OTS is accumulating as evidence, then Fan B is
certainly presenting a case that cannot be summarily
dismissed with some sort of superior "voice of reason"
air, FBALL.

[BFritz]

If Fan A suggests that Tubby knows nothing about
basketball, of course, this is ridiculous.
If Fan B suggests that the overall direction of
the UK program circa March 2007 is trending steadily
downward, and Fan B presents the "firsts" list that
OTS is accumulating as evidence, then Fan B is
certainly presenting a case that cannot be summarily
dismissed with some sort of superior "voice of reason"
air, FBALL.
When I said that he knows nothing about basketball, it was obvious that I was referring to his lack of coaching ability or knowledge of what to do in certain situations. If you need proof, watch almost, if not all of his games. He sits there and lets them play instead of instructing them to do things, screaming, yelling, talking, like every other coach in the nation. He doesn't know strategies on how to play to your team's strengths and other teams' weaknesses (i.e. playing uptempo in many, many situations). He's a horrible recruiter, two top recruites out of the top 150 are considering coming to UK, and it's #127 and higher.

Its amazing how a guy that knows absolutely nothing about baskeball is one of the most respected coaches in the country. That is everywhere except at his own school.
Show me documentation or video of where a majority of the people in the country have said that they respect Tubby as a top coach.

[FBALL]

He has no idea how to coach in situations or to have his players play to their strengths and against the other team's weaknesses

If Fan A suggests that Tubby knows nothing about
basketball, of course, this is ridiculous.
If Fan B suggests that the overall direction of
the UK program circa March 2007 is trending steadily
downward, and Fan B presents the "firsts" list that
OTS is accumulating as evidence, then Fan B is
certainly presenting a case that cannot be summarily
dismissed with some sort of superior "voice of reason"
air, FBALL.
There you go, the cavemaster.

No trend or case is being made.

[FBALL]

When I said that he knows nothing about basketball, it was obvious that I was referring to his lack of coaching ability or knowledge of what to do in certain situations. If you need proof, watch almost, if not all of his games. He sits there and lets them play instead of instructing them to do things, screaming, yelling, talking, like every other coach in the nation. He doesn't know strategies on how to play to your team's strengths and other teams' weaknesses (i.e. playing uptempo in many, many situations). He's a horrible recruiter, two top recruites out of the top 150 are considering coming to UK, and it's #127 and higher.


Show me documentation or video of where a majority of the people in the country have said that they respect Tubby as a top coach.
Take a coaches poll or ask anyone outside of the state of Kentucky and the opinion of Tubby Smith will overwhelmingly be a good one.

[thecavemaster]

There you go, the cavemaster.

No trend or case is being made.

What, FBALL? Have you not seen the LONG
lists of "firsts"? Losing to Florida
six times in a row? To Vandy four
times in a row? Playing on the first
day of the SEC tourney?...only to name
a few? I didn't think I had to restate
common knowledge: Tubby is accumulating
a "firsts" list at UK that are not the
kind of honor badges any CEO wants in
the dossier...

[FBALL]

What, FBALL? Have you not seen the LONG
lists of "firsts"? Losing to Florida
six times in a row? To Vandy four
times in a row? Playing on the first
day of the SEC tourney?...only to name
a few? I didn't think I had to restate
common knowledge: Tubby is accumulating
a "firsts" list at UK that are not the
kind of honor badges any CEO wants in
the dossier...
Please note the quote that I include with the post. It was implying that Tubby Smith knows nothing about basketball or how to coach the game. That is ridiculous.

As for the firsts lists, I don't like them anymore than you do. But times are changing. No longer will a select few programs dominate every year.

[FBALL]

Show me documentation or video of where a majority of the people in the country have said that they respect Tubby as a top coach.

Bill Self

"That goes to show everyone, when you go 22-11 or 23-11 (actually 22-11), that people are saying what's wrong and the sky is falling," he said. "That's a tribute to the program and Tubby (Smith) and his staff.
"I don't know if one game makes a season for either team, but I know for us, personally, it would be very big. And for them, I'm sure, it would be a big step for them considering they didn't have the type of year maybe that a lot of people have grown accustomed to from a won-loss record."
When asked how Kansas fans reacted when the Jayhawks lost first-round games in the past two NCAA Tournaments, Self smiled and said, "What's wrong with them? The sky is falling."

Thats just some recent remarks.

[Batpuff]

I dont agree with everything Tubby does. But he is a good coach. Yea it seems that the UK program is heading down hill fast. But take a min and think. He can teach and teach and if they dont put to use what they have been given then its no ones fault but the players. Yea he needs to recruit better players. But the time has gone of just a select few programs taking over. Look at all the mid major programs that have played beyond what anyone would have ever dreamed. Its because they get good athletes and build them to the programs needs. I see alot of this in Tubby, but the players he is getting are thinking they are better then the program itself.

[BFritz]

Bill Self

"That goes to show everyone, when you go 22-11 or 23-11 (actually 22-11), that people are saying what's wrong and the sky is falling," he said. "That's a tribute to the program and Tubby (Smith) and his staff.
"I don't know if one game makes a season for either team, but I know for us, personally, it would be very big. And for them, I'm sure, it would be a big step for them considering they didn't have the type of year maybe that a lot of people have grown accustomed to from a won-loss record."
When asked how Kansas fans reacted when the Jayhawks lost first-round games in the past two NCAA Tournaments, Self smiled and said, "What's wrong with them? The sky is falling."

Thats just some recent remarks.

Hold on, let me get this straight, it's a tribute to Tubby that he's coaching a program to that record when they should be a lot better?? Tubby took over a program that had made fans expecting a great team, and killed it, but he deserves credit for being there in the first place? How so? The man destroyed a powerhouse by not recruiting and by having horrible coaching strategies. That's the bottom line.


I dont agree with everything Tubby does. But he is a good coach. Yea it seems that the UK program is heading down hill fast. But take a min and think. He can teach and teach and if they dont put to use what they have been given then its no ones fault but the players. Yea he needs to recruit better players. But the time has gone of just a select few programs taking over. Look at all the mid major programs that have played beyond what anyone would have ever dreamed. Its because they get good athletes and build them to the programs needs. I see alot of this in Tubby, but the players he is getting are thinking they are better then the program itself.

There's been more teams that can compete, but the same few out of a group are still good every year. Look at Florida, North Carolina, Duke, Kansas, Syracuse, Maryland, UCLA, Conneticut- most of those are good every year, and that's only a few of the top programs.

As for being a good coach, are you kidding me? Look, for instance, at the points I made about him trying to play a slow paced game and not having good plays to have his players run, explain that. Explain how him sitting on the sideline and never yelling to instruct his players or anything makes him a good coach.

[FBALL]

Hold on, let me get this straight, it's a tribute to Tubby that he's coaching a program to that record when they should be a lot better?? Tubby took over a program that had made fans expecting a great team, and killed it, but he deserves credit for being there in the first place? How so? The man destroyed a powerhouse by not recruiting and by having horrible coaching strategies. That's the bottom line.




There's been more teams that can compete, but the same few out of a group are still good every year. Look at Florida, North Carolina, Duke, Kansas, Syracuse, Maryland, UCLA, Conneticut- most of those are good every year, and that's only a few of the top programs.

As for being a good coach, are you kidding me? Look, for instance, at the points I made about him trying to play a slow paced game and not having good plays to have his players run, explain that. Explain how him sitting on the sideline and never yelling to instruct his players or anything makes him a good coach.
I could find a hundred quotes from coaches and media complimenting Tubby Smith but none of them would make a difference. Nothing I could find would matter.

Sitting there and not instructing his players? Never Yelling? I say Smith is one of the more intense people in college basketball.

[BFritz]

I could find a hundred quotes from coaches and media complimenting Tubby Smith but none of them would make a difference. Nothing I could find would matter.

Sitting there and not instructing his players? Never Yelling? I say Smith is one of the more intense people in college basketball.
Did you watch either of the games in the tourney? Or any games all year?? End of games, and all of the game for that matter, Tubby's crouched on the sidelines or sitting on the bench in silence, letting things happen instead of coaching.

You didn't mention his horrible coaching strategies either or the rest of my post.

[FBALL]

Did you watch either of the games in the tourney? Or any games all year?? End of games, and all of the game for that matter, Tubby's crouched on the sidelines or sitting on the bench in silence, letting things happen instead of coaching.

You didn't mention his horrible coaching strategies either or the rest of my post.
Kansas two straight first round losses in the NCAA. Duke has been eliminated from the NCAA tournament earlier than UK in 3 of the past 5 years. Syracuse did not make the tournament this year. UNC had a losing season and did not even make the NIT 4 years ago. UCLA has been as sporadic as any and have been through more coaching changes than any of the big name schools you listed.

None of this matters anymore. Lets just hope the rebuilding process is not as painful as the demolition.

[Benchwarmer]

It's not Tubbies problem anymore, it's UK's.

[FBALL]

Show me documentation or video of where a majority of the people in the country have said that they respect Tubby as a top coach.
http://www.dailyindependent.com/localsports/local_story_084000945.html

[More Cowbell]

I did like Tubby, but if the higher-ups told him to make changes in his coaching staff, then he should have done it. Loyalty is nice, but this is a business, and his staff was not getting it done on the recruiting trail. I believe his stubborn attitude toward replacing some of his assistants is the reason he is gone, and if so, I'm ok with him leaving.

[thetribe]

But now he is gone and though he may be a problem, he is no longer OUR problem. :D