Compare Bush's house to Al Gore's

[Old School]

I thoutht that this was an interesting comparison of homes since Gore is such a environmentalist.




http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp

[Beef]

You would already know this if you watched a news station worth anything. FOXNews has a one hour special on how big of a hypocrite that Gore is. Talks all about his home and his travels.

[Coach_Owens87]

It's so funny how everyone buys into the crap that fox news spits out. This is the same news station that said that the american troops committed war crimes in malmedy, Ummm in case they didnt know, THE GERMANS SLAUGHETERD AMERICAN TROOPS. this news station is a joke and a disgrace to journalism.

Fox news is so baised, but so is most of the other news channels. Ok so Al Gore pays his electric bill, Oh god the horrors. They cant find nothing else bad about the man so they have to run a one hour special about his electric bill. thats hilarious. They are doing the same thing to Obama, they claim he went to a muslim school, not, he's a christian. so when that story was debunked they fount someting horrible on him, he smokes.. Wow, so then they do a special about that..lol...
Why not speak of the war crimes commited by bush, why not talk about his re-writting of the clean water act, or his freindship with coal companies which is leading the absolute destruction of Central applachia. They tried to link Al Gore to an oil company, but he has no stock in the company and never did. His father did, but that means nothing. Anything coming from this Pro-Bush channel cant be taken literally, fox is just entertainment.

[Beef]

It's not just about his house. It goes into detail about his travel and CO2 emissions also. Watch it and learn something. Taking private jets fro event to event doesn't help the environment any when he could easily be on commercial airliners and emit 1/100 the amount of CO2 than he does with his private jets. Yeah, seems like he really cares about the environment. And it seems to be that attacking his house is not just something to get to him, it seems to be telling the truth. That he is emitting 100s of times more greenhouse gases than a normal house isn't something bad?

They wouldn't be attacking him if he wasn't such a huge hypocrite. If he didn't push for changes in emission levels, then his house would be left alone. Lead by example and no one will bother.

[DevilsWin]

Fox Noise is poisioning America.

[Beef]

But the liberals are the best thing to happen.

[98]

Fox Noise is poisioning America.
Truth hurts huh?

[DevilsWin]

Truth hurts huh?

You wouldn't know the truth if it kicked your dog if all you listen to is Fox Noise. Do some research on FoxNews and Rupert Murdoch.

[Coach_Owens87]

It's not just about his house. It goes into detail about his travel and CO2 emissions also. Watch it and learn something. Taking private jets fro event to event doesn't help the environment any when he could easily be on commercial airliners and emit 1/100 the amount of CO2 than he does with his private jets. Yeah, seems like he really cares about the environment. And it seems to be that attacking his house is not just something to get to him, it seems to be telling the truth. That he is emitting 100s of times more greenhouse gases than a normal house isn't something bad?

They wouldn't be attacking him if he wasn't such a huge hypocrite. If he didn't push for changes in emission levels, then his house would be left alone. Lead by example and no one will bother.

If it comes from fox I really doubt I would learn something. Go to this site and read this, it debunks everyting stated by fox news, you may not know what to think of this since it is REAL JOURNALISM, something Fox knows nothing about. Here is a small excerpt from the article
1) Gore’s family has taken numerous steps to reduce the carbon footprint of their private residence, including signing up for 100 percent green power through Green Power Switch, installing solar panels, and using compact fluorescent bulbs and other energy saving technology.

2) Gore has had a consistent position of purchasing carbon offsets to offset the family’s carbon footprint — a concept the right-wing fails to understand. Gore’s office explains:
What Mr. Gore has asked is that every family calculate their carbon footprint and try to reduce it as much as possible. Once they have done so, he then advocates that they purchase offsets, as the Gore’s do, to bring their footprint down to zero.

Please stop buying into the bull**** fox feeds you. You told me to read about this issue and learn something, well I did. Know it's your turn, the truth hurts don't it.

[Coach_Owens87]

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976936582

I forgot to mention the site. But you really do need to read it, I good strong dose of the truth is good sometimes

[Old School]

If it comes from fox I really doubt I would learn something. Go to this site and read this, it debunks everyting stated by fox news, you may not know what to think of this since it is REAL JOURNALISM, something Fox knows nothing about. Here is a small excerpt from the article
1) Gore’s family has taken numerous steps to reduce the carbon footprint of their private residence, including signing up for 100 percent green power through Green Power Switch, installing solar panels, and using compact fluorescent bulbs and other energy saving technology.

2) Gore has had a consistent position of purchasing carbon offsets to offset the family’s carbon footprint — a concept the right-wing fails to understand. Gore’s office explains:
What Mr. Gore has asked is that every family calculate their carbon footprint and try to reduce it as much as possible. Once they have done so, he then advocates that they purchase offsets, as the Gore’s do, to bring their footprint down to zero.

Please stop buying into the bull**** fox feeds you. You told me to read about this issue and learn something, well I did. Know it's your turn, the truth hurts don't it.

Real Journalism - I think not!!!

What is the deal with Carbon Offsets? A person continues to live their normal lifestyle and feels guilty, so they pay a corporation (like the one Gore owns) anywhere from $5.50 to $12.00 per ton of CO2 so they can sleep at night. I calculated my carbon footprint and the results vary from 35 tons of CO2 to 60 Tons of CO2 depending on which site you use. One site said that they could plant 52 trees to offset my Carbon output, the coal company that I work for recently planted about 5,000 trees, shouldn't that count for something. Sorry but I just don't buy the idea of buying carbon offsets, if a person is so concerned with the enviroment they should make some personal sacrifices.

MSNBC, CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC and others sells just as much BULL as Fox News does!

[Coach_Owens87]

Real Journalism - I think not!!!

What is the deal with Carbon Offsets? A person continues to live their normal lifestyle and feels guilty, so they pay a corporation (like the one Gore owns) anywhere from $5.50 to $12.00 per ton of CO2 so they can sleep at night. I calculated my carbon footprint and the results vary from 35 tons of CO2 to 60 Tons of CO2 depending on which site you use. One site said that they could plant 52 trees to offset my Carbon output, the coal company that I work for recently planted about 5,000 trees, shouldn't that count for something. Sorry but I just don't buy the idea of buying carbon offsets, if a person is so concerned with the enviroment they should make some personal sacrifices.

MSNBC, CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC and others sells just as much BULL as Fox News does!

Yes they lie, but no one can lie as much as fox, they are an embarrasment to journalism. They're just a right wing propaganda network, and if you cant see that, they've already got you brainwashed (or your'e just an idiot). I don't watch any news channels, If I want to know about a topic I research it, I don't need no political pundit telling me what to believe. The only thing you can tie Gore to is a zinc mine in Tennessee, but what does all of this prove? Nothing, Global Warming does exist, it's been proven, whats wrong with someone standing up and saying carbon emissions need to be controlled. But wait you work for a coal company, if we get away from fossil fuels you want have a job. so stop being biased and do some real research, quit listening to the **** they feed you. I tell you what, do some research and show me how mining helps the environment, or how mining companies help this region (They don't, I know all the dirty secrets of the mining companies) or how Al Gore is such an evil hypocrite, if you can give me a reliable source, no conservative web sites, or conservative nutjob viewpoints, I'll hush.
Now a coal company planting 5,000 trees is a joke, who is making up for the 14 million acres of forest, and over 1,000 miles of streams they have destroyed. All that planting does it get people off thier back for a while, just like the Elk introduction did a few years ago. But if you want to debate me on the affects of mining, I'll put you to shame, so for your own sake, dont even bother.

[Armchair QB]

Yes they lie, but no one can lie as much as fox, they are an embarrasment to journalism. They're just a right wing propaganda network, and if you cant see that, they've already got you brainwashed (or your'e just an idiot). I don't watch any news channels, If I want to know about a topic I research it, I don't need no political pundit telling me what to believe. The only thing you can tie Gore to is a zinc mine in Tennessee, but what does all of this prove? Nothing, Global Warming does exist, it's been proven, whats wrong with someone standing up and saying carbon emissions need to be controlled. But wait you work for a coal company, if we get away from fossil fuels you want have a job. so stop being biased and do some real research, quit listening to the **** they feed you. I tell you what, do some research and show me how mining helps the environment, or how mining companies help this region (They don't, I know all the dirty secrets of the mining companies) or how Al Gore is such an evil hypocrite, if you can give me a reliable source, no conservative web sites, or conservative nutjob viewpoints, I'll hush.
Now a coal company planting 5,000 trees is a joke, who is making up for the 14 million acres of forest, and over 1,000 miles of streams they have destroyed. All that planting does it get people off thier back for a while, just like the Elk introduction did a few years ago. But if you want to debate me on the affects of mining, I'll put you to shame, so for your own sake, dont even bother.
Who proved global warming exists and when did they do it?

[Coach_Owens87]

Who proved global warming exists and when did they do it?

The IPCC (Intergovernmental panel on climate change) released a report last year that proved it is real. The IPCC is a agency from many countries consisting of scientist from around the world. Here is a link to read the report. http://www.ipcc.ch/

Even our energy hog, oil loving president agrees it exist. Just go hear to read it
http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/glob-warm.html

[DevilsWin]

the coal company that I work for

Well Well Well. So you work for a coal company. Imagine that.
Your credibility as an unbiased representative of this particular issue is now non-existent.

Boy it sure would suck for you if we cut back on coal mining and replaced Coal Energy with Clean/Green resources.

But no sir your way of life is dependent on the Robber Barrons of the coal industry and their ability to continue to pollute the earth, groundwater and lifeforms on this planet.

Coal mining is the old way to provide energy. We are smarter and more advanced(at least some of us are) than those who came before us. We now have new ways of providing energy that are better.

Quit thinking about yourself for a change "republican" and think of the "greater good" for all of mankind and your childrens children.

[Old School]

They're just a right wing propaganda network, and if you cant see that, they've already got you brainwashed (or your'e just an idiot).

(They don't, I know all the dirty secrets of the mining companies).

Now a coal company planting 5,000 trees is a joke, who is making up for the 14 million acres of forest, and over 1,000 miles of streams they have destroyed.

But if you want to debate me on the affects of mining, I'll put you to shame, so for your own sake, dont even bother.



But no sir your way of life is dependent on the Robber Barrons of the coal industry and their ability to continue to pollute the earth, groundwater and lifeforms on this planet.

Coal mining is the old way to provide energy. We are smarter and more advanced(at least some of us are) than those who came before us. We now have new ways of providing energy that are better.

Quit thinking about yourself for a change "republican" and think of the "greater good" for all of mankind and your childrens children. Posted by Devilswins

"WOW" I make one post about Gore and Carbon Offsets and two tree huggers come running out of the deep dark forest. One said I've either been Brainwashed by Fox News or I'm an Idiot. The other said that I work for a Robber Barron (What ever they are?) and that I'm not smarter than my Parents, Grandparents or even my Great Great Grandparents because I work in a Coal Mine today. "Devilwins" also said I was self centered and only thought of myself, he even called me a "Republician".... now I've been called a lot of names during my lifetime but ....now that I think about it "Republician" has a nice sound to it....Thanks Devilswin.

Here's a little background on myself I've been involved with the Coal Mining industry since 1980, first in Engineering then Underground Mine production, and then to production on Surface Mine, so I should know something about Coal Mining.

So OC87 if you know all the dirty little secerts of mining companies, you are either the most intelligent person on Earth or a legend in your own mind, I'm leaning toward the latter...just my opinion.

5,000 trees was my mistake it should have read 55,000 trees, we try to plant 600-800 trees per acre and allow for 75% survival rate.

(14 Million acres of forest and 1,000 miles of streams) A Myth put out by Enviromentalist
By the way OC87 and DW, What is you definition or a stream?

Robber Barons ???..... I'm still thinking about this one lol

Over half of the nations Electricity is generated by Coal. Now DW if we were to stop using coal to generate electricity today (which is what you both want). What are these new ways to provide electricity? If they're better I'm all for it, I know we will not be able to use coal forever, but we need to have another source ready to take over before you shut down coal mining.

Quit thinking of myself as a "Republician" NEVER!!

One other note the enviromentalist are trying to beat up on the coal mining industry, but do you ever see them protesting the construction of Interstate Highways, Shopping Centers (Wal-Mart/Lowes etc.) Sub-Divisions and the list can go on.

[Armchair QB]

The IPCC (Intergovernmental panel on climate change) released a report last year that proved it is real. The IPCC is a agency from many countries consisting of scientist from around the world. Here is a link to read the report. http://www.ipcc.ch/

Even our energy hog, oil loving president agrees it exist. Just go hear to read it
http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/glob-warm.html

Of course the IPCC would produce a report stating that global warming exist. If they produced one that said it didn't then they would all be out of a job.

I am not saying GW does or doesn't exist; however, I don't think you can taking a 100 years of data and model the entire future on a small trend of data.

BTW what is your carbon footprint.

[Armchair QB]

But no sir your way of life is dependent on the Robber Barrons of the coal industry and their ability to continue to pollute the earth, groundwater and lifeforms on this planet.

Coal mining is the old way to provide energy. We are smarter and more advanced(at least some of us are) than those who came before us. We now have new ways of providing energy that are better.

Quit thinking about yourself for a change "republican" and think of the "greater good" for all of mankind and your childrens children. Posted by Devilswins

"WOW" I make one post about Gore and Carbon Offsets and two tree huggers come running out of the deep dark forest. One said I've either been Brainwashed by Fox News or I'm an Idiot. The other said that I work for a Robber Barron (What ever they are?) and that I'm not smarter than my Parents, Grandparents or even my Great Great Grandparents because I work in a Coal Mine today. "Devilwins" also said I was self centered and only thought of myself, he even called me a "Republician".... now I've been called a lot of names during my lifetime but ....now that I think about it "Republician" has a nice sound to it....Thanks Devilswin.

Here's a little background on myself I've been involved with the Coal Mining industry since 1980, first in Engineering then Underground Mine production, and then to production on Surface Mine, so I should know something about Coal Mining.

So OC87 if you know all the dirty little secerts of mining companies, you are either the most intelligent person on Earth or a legend in your own mind, I'm leaning toward the latter...just my opinion.

5,000 trees was my mistake it should have read 55,000 trees, we try to plant 600-800 trees per acre and allow for 75% survival rate.

(14 Million acres of forest and 1,000 miles of streams) A Myth put out by Enviromentalist
By the way OC87 and DW, What is you definition or a stream?

Robber Barons ???..... I'm still thinking about this one lol

Over half of the nations Electricity is generated by Coal. Now DW if we were to stop using coal to generate electricity today (which is what you both want). What are these new ways to provide electricity? If they're better I'm all for it, I know we will not be able to use coal forever, but we need to have another source ready to take over before you shut down coal mining.

Quit thinking of myself as a "Republician" NEVER!!

One other note the enviromentalist are trying to beat up on the coal mining industry, but do you ever see them protesting the construction of Interstate Highways, Shopping Centers (Wal-Mart/Lowes etc.) Sub-Divisions and the list can go on.
:Clap: :thumpsup:

[Coach_Owens87]

[QUOTE=Armchair QB;390156]:Clap: :thumpsup:[/QUOT

Im niether a legend in my own mind or a genius, I'm just informed, not blinded to the truth like you.You accuse me of giving biased info from environmental groups but yet all you give is crap fed to you by the coal industry. Yes over 50% of our power comes from coal, it's actually more around 60% but what does that prove, nothing, just that we are dependent on coal.
Im not the only one who thinks this is a horrible thing, just recently a federal judge ruled mountaintop mining illegal in west virginia. This put a stop to 4 pending mine sites. The same ruling was made 3 years ago but bush re-wrote the Clean water act to make the filling of streams legal.
You really think coal companies give a crap about you or this region? not really. You miners work so hard for nothing. The coal severance tax, enacted in 1972 to help this region hasn't changed since. It still sits at 5% per ton. But that 5% goes into a general state fund, the majority of it never goes back to the counties the coal came from. here is an example "Flecther left in the budget $3.4 million in projects funded with coal severance dollars for Butler County,a county that produced no coal last year" (http://withinreason.blogspot.com/2006/06/coal-severance-tax.html)

What I stated is not a myth, they're all facts, just research them and try to prove me wrong. The real numbers for land destroyed are probably a lot higher since there is no group who keeps up with the total amount of land destroyed. Your coal company may plant trees, good for them, but the majority do not, reclaimatioin is a joke. by the latest evidence nearly 80% of all mine sites do not meet federal requirements for reclamation under the SMCRA.

Here are some facts www.appvoices.org


Over 300,000 acres of West Virginia have received surface mine permits. Less than 1 percent of mined land is currently reused for any development purpose. 1 Percent, thats an embarrassment isnt that land supposed to help this area and be put to use.

Surface mining (which includes MTR mining), accounts for only 1.2% of jobs in WV and brings in just 2.6% of the state’s total revenues. The counties where surface mining predominates are some of the still poorest counties in the country. The same is true for Ky. The poorest counties are those with high coal production. 1 percent of jobs, just how is 1% of out total jobs supposed to be such a huge economic impact?

And ive heard the same crap about "what is a stream". Coal companies use their own definition to get by with breaking the law. here is the definition "a natural body of running water flowing on or under the earth" so any flowing body of natural water is a stream. those are what is being filled.

Coal wont last forever, and as DW stated we are a smarter generation than those before us. We have the ability to use cheaper more efficient energy sources, so why not use them.

[DevilsWin]

Robber Barons ???..... I'm still thinking about this one.

Apparently you don't know much about American History.
Ever heard of Tammany Hall? Rockafeller, Carnegie, or Vanderbilt? A little post Civil War Era history lesson could do you some good.

If we forget history we are destined to repeat it my friend.

[Old School]

I'm just informed, not blinded to the truth like you.You accuse me of giving biased info from environmental groups but yet all you give is crap fed to you by the coal industry.

Yes over 50% of our power comes from coal, it's actually more around 60% but what does that prove, nothing, just that we are dependent on coal.

You really think coal companies give a crap about you or this region? not really. You miners work so hard for nothing.

The coal severance tax, enacted in 1972 to help this region hasn't changed since. It still sits at 5% per ton. But that 5% goes into a general state fund, the majority of it never goes back to the counties the coal came from. here is an example "Flecther left in the budget $3.4 million in projects funded with coal severance dollars for Butler County,a county that produced no coal last year" (http://withinreason.blogspot.com/2006/06/coal-severance-tax.html)

Your coal company may plant trees, good for them, but the majority do not, reclaimatioin is a joke. by the latest evidence nearly 80% of all mine sites do not meet federal requirements for reclamation under the SMCRA.

Coal wont last forever, and as DW stated we are a smarter generation than those before us. We have the ability to use cheaper more efficient energy sources, so why not use them.

CO87 Out of my three post on this thread tell me what info. came from Coal Companies.
My carbon footprint info came from 3 different Environmental Sites, the 55,000 trees that were just planted came from my job site, my idea of not buying into purchasing carbon offsets is my personal opinion and you agreed with me that over half of the nations electricity is produced from coal.

CO87 You ask me if I really think that Coal Companies give a crap about me and our region.
I can honestly say yes I do, now let me explain why, some of owners live in this area, some live in other states and some of the larger coal companies are owned by investors either way the Presidents or General Managers that manage the daily operations live in this area. Most Coal Companies give back to their communities, here's a few that I have been involved with: working with 10-15 fellow workers at local schools to paint, repair or install new playground equipment, landscaping, concrete work etc. I have worked for coal companies that were "Partners in Education" this included donating money for school trips, purchasing supplies, they have also taken small equipment to help with the athletic fields.
One company had a employee dress up every year as Santa Clause and they would buy gift to give to the kids. The Coal company paid for everything.
Here a story you will be interested in OC87. Annually since about 1996 our company has hired a contractor to take a back hoe and dump truck and assist the local Watershed Group clear debris from a 3-4 mile section of a large creek that runs through the community. Over the years they have picked up +100 tires, over 80 tons of plastic bottles, plastic bags, dirty diapers and other trash that had washed down stream over the years. Several Coal Companies have projects similar to these.

CO87 you brought up the Coal Severance Tax.
I agree with you, more of the tax monies should be sent to the producing counties, but remember the Coal Companies just pay the tax they have no input on how the money is distributed.

CO87 You say the land has been distroyed?
You may want to run down to the Property Valuation Administrator's office in any county and you will see that reclaimed mining property particularly the level land created by mining is assessed at a higher rate than hillside property.
Eastern Ky and Southern West Virginia have a huge need for flat land above the flood plain. I agree that we need to do a better job of utilizing the reclaimed properties we now have, one thing is that we need is better access to these properties. What manufacture would want to relocate to this area when they have to travel narrow back roads to and from their factory.

CO87 You say my company may plant trees others don't?
All Coal Companies have to have a reclamation plan and a tree planting plan in their mining permit and it has to be approved by the state. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this law.

CO87 So You say reclaimation is a joke?
I'm not sure what jobs you been on (if any) but we have inspectors in our jobs daily (yes I mean 4 to 5 days a week) checking our mining and reclamation practices. Legally a company is only allowed to distrub a certain percentage of the permitted acreage, after that number is reached they have to have portions of the distrubed area reclaimed before they are allowed to distrub any more acreage. By the way where did you come up with 80% of all mine sites not meeting Federal Requirements come from. Did you pull that number out of your hat also.

CO87 Cheapier and more efficient energy sources?
As I said before I have no problem with alternative energy, but the enviromentalist are wanting to shut mining down today. Tell me if we stop burning coal today what will take it's place tomorrow. As of today solar and wind energy cannot produce 50% of the Nations electricity. My suggestion is to develop another source of energy that can replace coal before kicking it into the weeds.

[Old School]

Apparently you don't know much about American History.
Ever heard of Tammany Hall? Rockafeller, Carnegie, or Vanderbilt? A little post Civil War Era history lesson could do you some good.

If we forget history we are destined to repeat it my friend.

Thanks for the Info. just remember I'm just a dumb coal miner
John Rockefeller the Oil tycoon rings a bell, he's the Great Grandfather of Jay D. Rockefeller the Democratic U.S. Senator from West Virginia

[Coach_Owens87]

CO87 Out of my three post on this thread tell me what info. came from Coal Companies.
My carbon footprint info came from 3 different Environmental Sites, the 55,000 trees that were just planted came from my job site, my idea of not buying into purchasing carbon offsets is my personal opinion and you agreed with me that over half of the nations electricity is produced from coal.

CO87 You ask me if I really think that Coal Companies give a crap about me and our region.
I can honestly say yes I do, now let me explain why, some of owners live in this area, some live in other states and some of the larger coal companies are owned by investors either way the Presidents or General Managers that manage the daily operations live in this area. Most Coal Companies give back to their communities, here's a few that I have been involved with: working with 10-15 fellow workers at local schools to paint, repair or install new playground equipment, landscaping, concrete work etc. I have worked for coal companies that were "Partners in Education" this included donating money for school trips, purchasing supplies, they have also taken small equipment to help with the athletic fields.
One company had a employee dress up every year as Santa Clause and they would buy gift to give to the kids. The Coal company paid for everything.
Here a story you will be interested in OC87. Annually since about 1996 our company has hired a contractor to take a back hoe and dump truck and assist the local Watershed Group clear debris from a 3-4 mile section of a large creek that runs through the community. Over the years they have picked up +100 tires, over 80 tons of plastic bottles, plastic bags, dirty diapers and other trash that had washed down stream over the years. Several Coal Companies have projects similar to these.

CO87 you brought up the Coal Severance Tax.
I agree with you, more of the tax monies should be sent to the producing counties, but remember the Coal Companies just pay the tax they have no input on how the money is distributed.

CO87 You say the land has been distroyed?
You may want to run down to the Property Valuation Administrator's office in any county and you will see that reclaimed mining property particularly the level land created by mining is assessed at a higher rate than hillside property.
Eastern Ky and Southern West Virginia have a huge need for flat land above the flood plain. I agree that we need to do a better job of utilizing the reclaimed properties we now have, one thing is that we need is better access to these properties. What manufacture would want to relocate to this area when they have to travel narrow back roads to and from their factory.

CO87 You say my company may plant trees others don't?
All Coal Companies have to have a reclamation plan and a tree planting plan in their mining permit and it has to be approved by the state. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this law.

CO87 So You say reclaimation is a joke?
I'm not sure what jobs you been on (if any) but we have inspectors in our jobs daily (yes I mean 4 to 5 days a week) checking our mining and reclamation practices. Legally a company is only allowed to distrub a certain percentage of the permitted acreage, after that number is reached they have to have portions of the distrubed area reclaimed before they are allowed to distrub any more acreage. By the way where did you come up with 80% of all mine sites not meeting Federal Requirements come from. Did you pull that number out of your hat also.

CO87 Cheapier and more efficient energy sources?
As I said before I have no problem with alternative energy, but the enviromentalist are wanting to shut mining down today. Tell me if we stop burning coal today what will take it's place tomorrow. As of today solar and wind energy cannot produce 50% of the Nations electricity. My suggestion is to develop another source of energy that can replace coal before kicking it into the weeds.

The law does require you to reclaim land, im not disagreeing. But there is ways around the law, believe it or not. From the newest data 80% of all mined land reclamation does not meet the standards set by the law (http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2006/02/16/reece/ this came from a book by Erik Reece, a professor at UK, his book one several awards. this is where most of my info came from, the rest should be contianed in my last post), remember the law states that the land must be put back to the original or better shape, unless the company can provide plans for future economic development at the end of the mining. This is the loophole that a lot of companies use. It's all in the SMCRA.

The number I gave for buried streams was incorrect, here is the ESTIMATE by the epa "The U.S. EPA estimates that over 700 miles of healthy streams have been completely buried by mountaintop removal and thousands more have been damaged" ( from above link)

Now I know some coal companies are locally owned, but where does the money go. Here is one example of how we are being used. last year American power plants burned over a billion tons of coal, accounting for over 50 percent of this country's electricity use. In Kentucky, 80 percent of the harvested coal is sold and shipped to 22 other states. (Above link) So we are destroying our land to feed the power needs of the rest of the country. Isnt it time we got something back for what we have given up. I think so, but we arent, with all that money we could really help this area, get better schools, better roads, and better medical facilites, more jobs. But none of that is happening. WE get a wal-mart and everyone thinks were "high and mighty." It's called neocolonalism, and it's happening to us. We are so dependent on coal that we cant do without it. So they basically have the power to do what they want to us.
Why are the top coal producing counties among the poorest counties in the nation?
I'm glad we agree on the coal severance tax, it's a shame that hard working people like yourself bust their butt, but yet none of the money promised to us ever makes it back. and when it does it is wasted, just like the industrial park in hazard, which cost around 30 million, it now has only 1 business.

"in Kentucky where I live, coal-related employment has dropped 60 percent in the last 15 years" (same source) it takes very few people to run a strip mine. SO actually MTR is worse for the miner
I think you should read his book, LOST MOUNTAIN, it gives a very detailed unbaised look at the coal industry.

We can sit and argue all day and not get anywhere. Go take a look at google earth, it's free to download. They have a special feature under "Global Awareness" called Memorial for the mountains. It shows before and after pics of some active MTR sites. These photos are high resolution and up to date. Just look at all the strip mines and see what the reclamation being done looks like. Im sure you will see why I call it a joke.

Today Massey energy is trying to put valley fills in nearby streams after a judge ruled that thier practices are illegal. this a great example of what I was saying, they don't really give a crap about the environment.

[Beef]

I don't know where to really jump in here because you guys seem to be far enough down each others throats to take care of this matter. But I must admit that you are doing a good job and it has been fun to read. I have way too much work over the next week and a half to throw all my thought into this but I will let you know some of the things that are on my mind.

Little information about myself. I am a Republican and my family history is in the coal industry (not currently). Bias, probably, but I wouldn't be where I am today without it so I will not badmouth it.

I'll go ahead and agree that the coal tax needs to come back to the areas that mine the coal. We (EKY) were lucky with Patton in office, because he tried his hardest to do just that. When you get people in office that do not understand the region. they will do what they want with the money. Sad, but true.

Buying carbon offsets is a JOKE. If Gore was so keen on lowering greenhouse gases, why doesn't he just lower his emissions instead of buying an "offset". Heck, why doesn't he do both. Money is not a problem for him, he could 'Go Green' in his life and still purchase offsets. Maybe it is too late for him to change his house, wait, no, he just finished it. He was building it while Inconvenient Truth was being filmed. If he had such a care for the environment then why didn't he make the needed adjustments before he started on the house? So I do not see how you can not call him a hypocrite.

I agree with Old School. Sure the land has changed, but it has increased in value for the better. No industry is going to want to come in and buy a piece of hillside only to have to pay for it to be leveled so that they can build. Then you bring up the point about being poor regions. This is because all that we have is coal. Why not more? I blame it on transportation. Companies that require a lot of freight do not want to move into our region due to the lack of roads and/or suitable airports. This goes back to the Coal Tax though and the need for the government to help the region with the money that it deserves.

So we are destroying our land to feed the power needs of the rest of the country.
What do you really want us to do? This is the only source of major income for the region. If we stopped mining coal for the rest of the country and only for our states (KY, VA, WVA), I would be willing to guess that 75% of mines would have to shut down cause the region to become even more impoverished. Not to mention the chaos that it would cause around the country. As OS said, what would replace coal as the energy source tomorrow if we stopped producing today? Talk about rolling blackouts. It would cause almost a national blackout. Think of the troubles that would start: Stocks crash, people panic, and/or depression.

[Coach_Owens87]

I don't know where to really jump in here because you guys seem to be far enough down each others throats to take care of this matter. But I must admit that you are doing a good job and it has been fun to read. I have way too much work over the next week and a half to throw all my thought into this but I will let you know some of the things that are on my mind.

Little information about myself. I am a Republican and my family history is in the coal industry (not currently). Bias, probably, but I wouldn't be where I am today without it so I will not badmouth it.

I'll go ahead and agree that the coal tax needs to come back to the areas that mine the coal. We (EKY) were lucky with Patton in office, because he tried his hardest to do just that. When you get people in office that do not understand the region. they will do what they want with the money. Sad, but true.

Buying carbon offsets is a JOKE. If Gore was so keen on lowering greenhouse gases, why doesn't he just lower his emissions instead of buying an "offset". Heck, why doesn't he do both. Money is not a problem for him, he could 'Go Green' in his life and still purchase offsets. Maybe it is too late for him to change his house, wait, no, he just finished it. He was building it while Inconvenient Truth was being filmed. If he had such a care for the environment then why didn't he make the needed adjustments before he started on the house? So I do not see how you can not call him a hypocrite.

I agree with Old School. Sure the land has changed, but it has increased in value for the better. No industry is going to want to come in and buy a piece of hillside only to have to pay for it to be leveled so that they can build. Then you bring up the point about being poor regions. This is because all that we have is coal. Why not more? I blame it on transportation. Companies that require a lot of freight do not want to move into our region due to the lack of roads and/or suitable airports. This goes back to the Coal Tax though and the need for the government to help the region with the money that it deserves.

So we are destroying our land to feed the power needs of the rest of the country.
What do you really want us to do? This is the only source of major income for the region. If we stopped mining coal for the rest of the country and only for our states (KY, VA, WVA), I would be willing to guess that 75% of mines would have to shut down cause the region to become even more impoverished. Not to mention the chaos that it would cause around the country. As OS said, what would replace coal as the energy source tomorrow if we stopped producing today? Talk about rolling blackouts. It would cause almost a national blackout. Think of the troubles that would start: Stocks crash, people panic, and/or depression.


The land here is not as valuable as you all think it is. If it was wouldn't we have more business? The coal companies want you to think the land is needed, but only 1% has been developed, so why do we need more land when what we have is not being used? I too have a family history in the coal industry, I currently have 5 uncles and numerous cousins who work in the mines. My great grandpa and grandfather both worked in the mines. That makes it difficult to speak out about, But I want my home to be protected for future generations to enjoy. What will I tell my grandkids when appalachia is nothing but a barren wasteland, I guess I can just say "Thats what we had to do"
Today's coal industry isn't the same. as it used to be It's not made up of unions and honest hard workers. It's multi-national, billion dollar energy corporations.

The notion that all we have is coal is what is keeping this region down. We have a limitless amount of natural bueaty, why not invest in tourism, which brings in more money than coal does in West Virginia. As long as the un-educated keep thinking we have no life but coal, we will never prosper. Companies dont want to come to this region not becuase of the hills, but becuase of the lack of qualified workers for high skilled jobs. I just wish people would study the issue, then talk. All this opinion crap means nothing. Stop being baised for one day, and just look at the facts, Im sure it will open your eyes to the truth. You can start by downloading google earth, it's free, and look at the current landscape of Appalachia. Look at the reclamation for yourself.



All that crap about the economy crashing is just bull made up by political parties. Both democrats and republicans lie, and neither are better than the other on environmental issues. Our former Governor Paul Patton was deeply involved in mining (no pun intended). Our present governer is also tied up in the industry.

To really get a grasp on the story,I really think everyone should read LOST MOUNTAIN by Erik Reece. He is a professor at UK and can give way more insight into the issue than I can. He done a three year study on strip mining in eastern Kentucky. His main topic is Lost Mountain in Perry County, he observes the mining covertly for 3 years, this is where I got the notion that most companies dont give a crap about reclamation. He visits many sites and talks to people on both side of the issue. Most of the sites he visits have had little to no attempt at renovation.
One of the biggest concerns I had from the book was the way the coal slurry break in Inez was handled. It was the largest environmental tragedy ever east of the Mississippi, but no one ever heard about it. and the company that built the slurry didn't get into any legal trouble. The clean up was a joke, the epa just came in and basically tilled up the land to hide the sludge. The sludge is still sitting in the big sandy today. And all those people have polluted drinking water, but no once cares. Where just "Dumb hillbillies" and no one gives a crap about our land. We aren't doing anything to change our national image, and give a better future for our next generation. The stats he gives are staggering. I knew damage has been done but I couldn't have imagined the extent that this area has been ravished.

[Old School]

[quote=Coach_Owens87;390179][quote=Armchair QB;390156]:Clap: :thumpsup:[/QUOT

I'm just informed, not blinded to the truth like you.You accuse me of giving biased info from environmental groups but yet all you give is crap fed to you by the coal industry.

by the latest evidence nearly 80% of all mine sites do not meet federal requirements for reclamation under the SMCRA.

Surface mining (which includes MTR mining), accounts for only 1.2% of jobs in WV and brings in just 2.6% of the state’s total revenues. The counties where surface mining predominates are some of the still poorest counties in the country. The same is true for Ky. The poorest counties are those with high coal production. 1 percent of jobs, just how is 1% of out total jobs supposed to be such a huge economic impact?

CO87 you ask how 1% (I'm looking into that number) of our total jobs can have a big economic impact. The following information is provided by the Kentucky office of Energy
Kentucky employed 15,012 Miners and they earned over 759 Million dollars in wages in 2004.
In 2004 Coal companies paid over 183 Million in Severance Taxes.
Created econmic activity throughout Ky totaling 9 Billion dollars.
61,158 jobs were created throughout Ky to support the Coal industry.

In 2004 Underground mining produced 73.5 million tons of coal and Surface mining produced 45.5 Million tons of coal (OC87 your Mr. Reece stated in his report that 70% of the coal mined in Kentucky came form Surface mines including Mountain Top Removal and 30% from Underground Mining) according to my math Surface mines in Kentucky produced 38 % of the coal mined in Kentucky.

In 1984 there were 1,137 Surface Mines in the State of Kentucky, in 2004 there were 196 Surface mines operating in the State of Kentucky.

In 1984 there were 926 Underground Mines in the State of Kentucky, in 2004 there were 223 Underground Mines in the State of Kentucky.

Remember these numbers came from the State of Kentucky.

Here's some numbers provided from West Virginia Office of Miners Health Safety and Training (WVOMHST) www.wvminesafety.org (http://www.wvminesafety.org)
Taxes paid by the coal industry and by utility companies that make electricity using coal accounted for two-thirds of the business taxes paid in W. Va.

The coal industry pays approximately 70 million dollars in property taxes annually in W. Va..

Coal severance taxes add approximately 214 million dollars to W. Va. economy.

The coal industry payroll is nearly 2 Billion dollars annually in W. Va.

Coal is responsible for more than 3.5 Billion annually in the gross state product in W. Va.

The coal industry employed about 20,000 people that earned an average of $50,000 per year, an additional 80,000 jobs were created

In West Virginia underground mines produced 98 million tons (62%)in 2005, and surface mines produced 60 million tons (38%).

Now I'm not an accountant, but you have to admit those numbers would have to have a huge impact a state's economy.

OC87 Federal Requirements for Reclamation
I did find out some more info the reclamation process in W. Va. a coal company can distrub up to 50% of their permited acreage or 200 acres whichever is less. Reclamation has to be started when reaching either 50% or 200 acres.

[Coach_Owens87]

[quote=Coach_Owens87;390179][quote=Armchair QB;390156]:Clap: :thumpsup:[/QUOT

I'm just informed, not blinded to the truth like you.You accuse me of giving biased info from environmental groups but yet all you give is crap fed to you by the coal industry.

by the latest evidence nearly 80% of all mine sites do not meet federal requirements for reclamation under the SMCRA.

Surface mining (which includes MTR mining), accounts for only 1.2% of jobs in WV and brings in just 2.6% of the state’s total revenues. The counties where surface mining predominates are some of the still poorest counties in the country. The same is true for Ky. The poorest counties are those with high coal production. 1 percent of jobs, just how is 1% of out total jobs supposed to be such a huge economic impact?

CO87 you ask how 1% (I'm looking into that number) of our total jobs can have a big economic impact. The following information is provided by the Kentucky office of Energy
Kentucky employed 15,012 Miners and they earned over 759 Million dollars in wages in 2004.
In 2004 Coal companies paid over 183 Million in Severance Taxes.
Created econmic activity throughout Ky totaling 9 Billion dollars.
61,158 jobs were created throughout Ky to support the Coal industry.

In 2004 Underground mining produced 73.5 million tons of coal and Surface mining produced 45.5 Million tons of coal (OC87 your Mr. Reece stated in his report that 70% of the coal mined in Kentucky came form Surface mines including Mountain Top Removal and 30% from Underground Mining) according to my math Surface mines in Kentucky produced 38 % of the coal mined in Kentucky.

In 1984 there were 1,137 Surface Mines in the State of Kentucky, in 2004 there were 196 Surface mines operating in the State of Kentucky.

In 1984 there were 926 Underground Mines in the State of Kentucky, in 2004 there were 223 Underground Mines in the State of Kentucky.

Remember these numbers came from the State of Kentucky.

Here's some numbers provided from West Virginia Office of Miners Health Safety and Training (WVOMHST) www.wvminesafety.org (http://www.wvminesafety.org)
Taxes paid by the coal industry and by utility companies that make electricity using coal accounted for two-thirds of the business taxes paid in W. Va.

The coal industry pays approximately 70 million dollars in property taxes annually in W. Va..

Coal severance taxes add approximately 214 million dollars to W. Va. economy.

The coal industry payroll is nearly 2 Billion dollars annually in W. Va.

Coal is responsible for more than 3.5 Billion annually in the gross state product in W. Va.

The coal industry employed about 20,000 people that earned an average of $50,000 per year, an additional 80,000 jobs were created

In West Virginia underground mines produced 98 million tons (62%)in 2005, and surface mines produced 60 million tons (38%).

Now I'm not an accountant, but you have to admit those numbers would have to have a huge impact a state's economy.

OC87 Federal Requirements for Reclamation
I did find out some more info the reclamation process in W. Va. a coal company can distrub up to 50% of their permited acreage or 200 acres whichever is less. Reclamation has to be started when reaching either 50% or 200 acres.


If you can give me the total income for the state. Then those numbers may mean something. I want debate you on the fact that Coal Companies make a lot of money they do. But just where is that money going. It's not helping Appalachia.

That reclamation law mentioned nothing about the requirements, or standards for reclamation. No wonder coal companies do such horrible jobs. Well that and reclamation cost money, lots of it. Most companies don't want to pay it. Thats why they pay a bond before mining that is supposed to cover reclamation if the state must step in. A lot of bigger companies create subsidiaries that shut down after one mining job. This way they cant be punished for breaking the law. You cant punish someone or something that doesn't exist.

[Old School]

[quote=Coach_Owens87;390179]


If you can give me the total income for the state. Then those numbers may mean something. I want debate you on the fact that Coal Companies make a lot of money they do. But just where is that money going. It's not helping Appalachia.

That reclamation law mentioned nothing about the requirements, or standards for reclamation. No wonder coal companies do such horrible jobs. Well that and reclamation cost money, lots of it. Most companies don't want to pay it. Thats why they pay a bond before mining that is supposed to cover reclamation if the state must step in. A lot of bigger companies create subsidiaries that shut down after one mining job. This way they cant be punished for breaking the law. You cant punish someone or something that doesn't exist.

I don't care what the total income is, 9 Billion Dollars has a huge economic impact!! Surely you're not that blinded to realize that. I'll tell you again Coal companies have no input on where or how the tax money is spent, and they can't tell their employees how to spend their hard earned money. You need to contact Frankfort if you have a problem with the way they spend the Tax dollars.

Each State has sightly different law concerning reclamation, first of all each company has to obey all state and federal laws (you can contact the West Virginia DEP or the Kentucky Department of Mines and Mineral to obtain information on each State) yes that means that you woiuld have to go to another site other than that Environmental Site you only visit now.

You are correct each company has to post a bond for their mining permit, apparently you're not familiar with the "Applicant Violator System" this is how it works, for each mining permit application the owners and officers of every company must be listed with their SS#. Once a Coal company goes into bond forfeiture a couple of things happen first they lose all off the bond money and secondly the names of the owners and officers are placed on the Applicant Violator List (a black list of sorts). These people can never apply for another coal mining permit anywhere in the United States even if they work for another Coal Company. Personaly I think this is punishment and it is deserved!

CO87 you keep talking about only using 1% of the existing land.
The source for the following information comes from the Environmenttal and Public Protection Cabinet
Mining is only a temporary land use, Mountaintop mining has created several sites for new Schools, Hospitals, Shopping Centers, Parks, Golf Courses, Housing, Airports, Industry, agriculture and timber in Kentucky
Here's a few of the Post-Mining land use and the County
1) Big Sandy Region Airport - Martin
2) Hatcher Field Airport - Pike
3) Carroll Field Airport - Breathitt
4) Ford Airport - Perry
5) Ohio County Airport - Ohio
6) Federal Correctional Institute - Clay, Martin
7) East Kentucky Correctional Complex - Morgan
8) Medium Security Prison - Muhlenberg, Knott
9) Otter Creek Correctional Center - Floyd
10) Juvenile Boot Camp - Breathitt
11) Earle C. Clements Job Corps Center - Muhlenberg
12) Army National Guard Training Center - Muhlenberg
13) U.S. Postal Service - Laurel
14) County Park - Ohio
15) Madisonville South By-Pass - Hopkins
16) Solid Waste Landfills - Daviess, Greenup, Ohio, Hopkins, Perry and Lee
17) Hazard Armory - Perry
18) Jail and State Police Barracks - Perry
19) Veterans Nursing Home - Perry
and the list goes on with another 75 Industrial or Commercial operations, and also includes 16 Farms or Agricultural Projects. Fish and wildlife projects include
20) Duck Refuge Areas - Ohio, Perry, Breathitt, Knott, Martin, Muhlenberg
21) Catfish Farming - McLean
22) Wildlife Management Area - Muhlenberg, Ohio, Perry
23) Wetland Development - Eastern Kentucky

CO87 I have a question for you, it's apparent that you've never worked in the Mining Industry, because the only information you can come up with is what the Environmentalist feed you, but have you ever visited a Active Surface or Undergound Mine Site?

In most of your post you keep saying that you are informed (post #19) and if you want to know about a topic you research it (post #12). When you research topic shouldn't you research all aspects of the topic? You keep telling me to look at Reece's web site and Appvoices and I have. I also know Reece is Anti-Coal and will never make a positive comment about Coal, this may suprise you a little but I often visit OHVEC's web site usually once or twice a week just to see what their up to.
I think you owe it to yourself to look at both sides of this topic and then form your own opinion.

CO87 did you know that only 7% of Eastern Kentucky is suitable for Surface Mining?

[Coach_Owens87]

[quote=Coach_Owens87;390845]

I don't care what the total income is, 9 Billion Dollars has a huge economic impact!! Surely you're not that blinded to realize that. I'll tell you again Coal companies have no input on where or how the tax money is spent, and they can't tell their employees how to spend their hard earned money. You need to contact Frankfort if you have a problem with the way they spend the Tax dollars.

Each State has sightly different law concerning reclamation, first of all each company has to obey all state and federal laws (you can contact the West Virginia DEP or the Kentucky Department of Mines and Mineral to obtain information on each State) yes that means that you woiuld have to go to another site other than that Environmental Site you only visit now.

You are correct each company has to post a bond for their mining permit, apparently you're not familiar with the "Applicant Violator System" this is how it works, for each mining permit application the owners and officers of every company must be listed with their SS#. Once a Coal company goes into bond forfeiture a couple of things happen first they lose all off the bond money and secondly the names of the owners and officers are placed on the Applicant Violator List (a black list of sorts). These people can never apply for another coal mining permit anywhere in the United States even if they work for another Coal Company. Personaly I think this is punishment and it is deserved!

CO87 you keep talking about only using 1% of the existing land.
The source for the following information comes from the Environmenttal and Public Protection Cabinet
Mining is only a temporary land use, Mountaintop mining has created several sites for new Schools, Hospitals, Shopping Centers, Parks, Golf Courses, Housing, Airports, Industry, agriculture and timber in Kentucky
Here's a few of the Post-Mining land use and the County
1) Big Sandy Region Airport - Martin
2) Hatcher Field Airport - Pike
3) Carroll Field Airport - Breathitt
4) Ford Airport - Perry
5) Ohio County Airport - Ohio
6) Federal Correctional Institute - Clay, Martin
7) East Kentucky Correctional Complex - Morgan
8) Medium Security Prison - Muhlenberg, Knott
9) Otter Creek Correctional Center - Floyd
10) Juvenile Boot Camp - Breathitt
11) Earle C. Clements Job Corps Center - Muhlenberg
12) Army National Guard Training Center - Muhlenberg
13) U.S. Postal Service - Laurel
14) County Park - Ohio
15) Madisonville South By-Pass - Hopkins
16) Solid Waste Landfills - Daviess, Greenup, Ohio, Hopkins, Perry and Lee
17) Hazard Armory - Perry
18) Jail and State Police Barracks - Perry
19) Veterans Nursing Home - Perry
and the list goes on with another 75 Industrial or Commercial operations, and also includes 16 Farms or Agricultural Projects. Fish and wildlife projects include
20) Duck Refuge Areas - Ohio, Perry, Breathitt, Knott, Martin, Muhlenberg
21) Catfish Farming - McLean
22) Wildlife Management Area - Muhlenberg, Ohio, Perry
23) Wetland Development - Eastern Kentucky

CO87 I have a question for you, it's apparent that you've never worked in the Mining Industry, because the only information you can come up with is what the Environmentalist feed you, but have you ever visited a Active Surface or Undergound Mine Site?

In most of your post you keep saying that you are informed (post #19) and if you want to know about a topic you research it (post #12). When you research topic shouldn't you research all aspects of the topic? You keep telling me to look at Reece's web site and Appvoices and I have. I also know Reece is Anti-Coal and will never make a positive comment about Coal, this may suprise you a little but I often visit OHVEC's web site usually once or twice a week just to see what their up to.
I think you owe it to yourself to look at both sides of this topic and then form your own opinion.

CO87 did you know that only 7% of Eastern Kentucky is suitable for Surface Mining?

yes I have visited many mine sites. But what does that have to do with anything, you can only see what the company will allow you to see. Lving in this area it is impossible not to see many old strip mines, and most of those are poorly reclamied, non native grass is sturgling to survive. Even the best reclamation efforts wont do much, it will take hundreds to thousands of years to regrow the natural forest, and the streams that are buried will never return to the past state.

Ok you mentioned 23 uses for old strip mines, Wow, out of the thousands of surface mines only 23 things are worth mentioning.10 of those sites were for airports and jails, most of those airports cant do commercial flights, so what impact does that make. The jail you mentioned in knott county doesn't exist, we share a jail with perry county.The reason most of the sites aren't used is becuase they aren't suitable to use. I do visit other sites other than the environmental sites you are criticizing me over, but no matter what side you visit they are both going to be baised, the best thing to do is to take info from both sites and come to the best conclusion. My opinion, which a lot of other people share, is that surface mining is bad for this region. Coal has been king in this region for over 100 years, and it hasn't helped us yet, what makes you think it is going to be our savior now. You need to stop thinking about yourself, and what works right now. What are we leaving the future generations? Once coal is gone, most of the companies here will follow suit and head out. What happens then?

I have never worked in the coal mines, and never will. Thats one of the big reasons I am attending college at the moment, I want a better life for myself, I dont want to be left with no option but to work in the mines.

I have heard that statistic that only 7% of eastern ky is suitable for surface mining. But that number is a little off. The projected amount of land to be affected in the next decade is one million acres for appalachia. I think that is a little more than the 6% total percent of the region that mining companies plan to affect.

We arent going to agree, so why don't we just stop arguing, it's pointless. a lot of people are starting to see that negative affects of mining, and it will be stopped. I just hope we can do it in time to save this region. These mountains define us, there our culture, our history, and our home, what will happen when they are gone. Thats the real concern here.

[Coach_Owens87]

I believe the best option for energy would be wind power. Why not use all the flat land we have, and create more energy and secure jobs for the future. This is a energy that will never run out.

"The most efficient use of Appalachian land likely merits the discontinuation of MTR coupled with the development of mountain based wind farms. If this occurs, over the next 10 years coal companies could continue to provide the energy required to meet at least 13-14% of US electric demand via wind turbines and deep mining. In addition, if coal companies chose this path as opposed to MTR, 10 years down the road they will be left with close to 1,000,000 acres of forested land suitable for economic development that also supplies 3-4% of US electric demand in perpetuity." (Mike Roth)

[Coach_Owens87]

Here is a site that you can visit. It's an article I got a lot of info from. The orginization is respected around the world, Im speaking of National Geographic, they done a tour of this region and wrote about in this article http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0603/feature5/index.html

[Old School]

yes I have visited many mine sites. But what does that have to do with anything, you can only see what the company will allow you to see. Lving in this area it is impossible not to see many old strip mines, and most of those are poorly reclamied, non native grass is sturgling to survive. Even the best reclamation efforts wont do much, it will take hundreds to thousands of years to regrow the natural forest, and the streams that are buried will never return to the past state.

Ok you mentioned 23 uses for old strip mines, Wow, out of the thousands of surface mines only 23 things are worth mentioning.10 of those sites were for airports and jails, most of those airports cant do commercial flights, so what impact does that make. The jail you mentioned in knott county doesn't exist, we share a jail with perry county.The reason most of the sites aren't used is becuase they aren't suitable to use. I do visit other sites other than the environmental sites you are criticizing me over, but no matter what side you visit they are both going to be baised, the best thing to do is to take info from both sites and come to the best conclusion. My opinion, which a lot of other people share, is that surface mining is bad for this region. Coal has been king in this region for over 100 years, and it hasn't helped us yet, what makes you think it is going to be our savior now. You need to stop thinking about yourself, and what works right now. What are we leaving the future generations? Once coal is gone, most of the companies here will follow suit and head out. What happens then?

I have never worked in the coal mines, and never will. Thats one of the big reasons I am attending college at the moment, I want a better life for myself, I dont want to be left with no option but to work in the mines.

I have heard that statistic that only 7% of eastern ky is suitable for surface mining. But that number is a little off. The projected amount of land to be affected in the next decade is one million acres for appalachia. I think that is a little more than the 6% total percent of the region that mining companies plan to affect.

We arent going to agree, so why don't we just stop arguing, it's pointless. a lot of people are starting to see that negative affects of mining, and it will be stopped. I just hope we can do it in time to save this region. These mountains define us, there our culture, our history, and our home, what will happen when they are gone. Thats the real concern here.

I only mentioned 23 because I didn't have time to type them all, apparently you missed # 19 (and the list goes on with another 75 Industrial or Commerical Operations and also includes 16 Farms or Agricultural Projects). WOW!!!

What difference does it make what the property is used for the fact is the property is being used. Yes there are 5 Airports on the list, but without surface mining creating these sites these wouldn't exist. The Big Sandy Regional Airport has a 5,000 foot runway it's still a little short for a commerical flight (Commerical flights need approx. 7,000' feet). Eastern Kentucky's topography makes it almost impossible to find a site suitable to build a 7,000' runway.

The Jail that I mentioned in Knott County is in the planning stage as was onother on the list.

Man do you realize that you just slapped over 30,000 coal miners in the face by calling them dishonest and lazy, when you said (let me qoute you "Today's coal industry isn't the same as it used to be it's not made up of unions and honest hard workers" Posted by Coach_Owens87 post # 25) Every mine or section that I've worked on has had several Christians that included Preachers, Ministers, Deacons, Sunday School Teachers that attend Church every time the doors are opened. To call these people dishonest and say they are not hard workers that their lazy just shows your IGNORANCE about everything!!!
How in the world can you call some one lazy when you have no clue of the work they do?

[Old School]

I believe the best option for energy would be wind power. Why not use all the flat land we have, and create more energy and secure jobs for the future. This is a energy that will never run out.

"The most efficient use of Appalachian land likely merits the discontinuation of MTR coupled with the development of mountain based wind farms. If this occurs, over the next 10 years coal companies could continue to provide the energy required to meet at least 13-14% of US electric demand via wind turbines and deep mining. In addition, if coal companies chose this path as opposed to MTR, 10 years down the road they will be left with close to 1,000,000 acres of forested land suitable for economic development that also supplies 3-4% of US electric demand in perpetuity." (Mike Roth)

Let's step back a minute In you post #29 you said it will take hundreds to thousands of years to regrow the natural forest, then in your post #30 you say in 10 years we will have 1,000,000 Acres of forest land suitable for economic development. Which is it 1,000 years or 10 years, see even you can't keep up with the false crap you put on here.

[Old School]

We arent going to agree, so why don't we just stop arguing, it's pointless. a lot of people are starting to see that negative affects of mining, and it will be stopped. I just hope we can do it in time to save this region. These mountains define us, there our culture, our history, and our home, what will happen when they are gone. Thats the real concern here.

I noticed that this thread has been viewed over 200 times, and I think a lot of people are also starting to see all of the false and exaggered stories you environmentalist are feeding to the public. You may be right about mining being stopped with the latest ruling in W. Va. it's very possible and we have nothing to replace the coal.

[DevilsWin]

In forums such as this when 2 people are in a seriously heated debate in the rush to present ones argument sometimes facts and figures get taken out of context.

Playing a game of statistical "gotcha" reduces the debate to the same level we have become used to seeing on cable network news channels.

I would like both Coach Owens and Old School to continue this discussion and try to find the middle ground of this issue. They should start with what they both agree on and work from there.

[DevilsWin]

You may be right about mining being stopped with the latest ruling in W. Va. it's very possible and we have nothing to replace the coal.

We live in the most beautiful part of the country IMO and Tourism should be our #1 industry.
This hand wringing over loosing the coal industry is BS anyway. The coal industry needs to be cleaned up but it doesn't need to be abolished.

[Coach_Owens87]

Let's step back a minute In you post #29 you said it will take hundreds to thousands of years to regrow the natural forest, then in your post #30 you say in 10 years we will have 1,000,000 Acres of forest land suitable for economic development. Which is it 1,000 years or 10 years, see even you can't keep up with the false crap you put on here.

Did you even read it... The message stated that over the next ten years a projected 1 million acres will be destroyed, if you use alternative energies we can save those 1 million acres.. Please read the full message before jumping to a conclusion.
Why do you continually call me bais when all the stats you can present come from the coal industry? I visit many sites from the coal company, that all say the same junk, it helps the land, we need the land, mining only impacts 10% of the mountain. OK we know the land is not valued becuase it's not being used, so why should I listen to the coal industry, you know they are only going to present facts that support them.
All you have ever been able to show me is how much money is made. But we both agree that that money is not used to help this area, so just what are you trying to prove? We do agree the a lot of things are wrong with the coal industry, and I think a lot of people who are on both sides of the issue can agree with that. For the people who think coal is the savior, look at where we are now, coal has been mined here for over 100 years, and we are still one of the poorest regions in the country. Coal is not going to save us, In West Va. Tourism brings in more money than Coal, but soon that will end, who will want to tour a barren wasteland?

The ruling in West Virginia put a stop to four pending mine permits that the Army corps of engineers issued. It was around the 4th or 5th time Corps of Engineers has been sued. We do have energy sources to replace coal, you may not like it, but we do. Coal wont last forever, we have to start thinking of alternatives not only for us, but for every generation to follow.

Oldschool, your name says it all, your of the "old" way of thinking. Were a smarter generation, we have more intelligent leaders (excluding our president), and times are changing. The political spotlight is now shining on global issues, and we are in the middle of a huge one with MTR. You cant really believe that blowing the tops off of mountains, and pushing the debris into a hollow, destroying everything nature has done is really good for this area. Were losing everything that makes this area beautiful,

I hope people reading this study the issue for themselves and come to thier own conclusion, if this happens im confident people will see the tragedy that has fallen upon this region. We should be proud to be from the mountains of eastern ky, and with that pride we should protect our home, not blow it away so others can prosper.

Just go to google and type in "Mountaintop removal", you are bombarded with thousands of hits of organizations against it, with a voice that loud, we are bound to be heard.

This is another easy site that has some startling info, it talks about the economic impact and all of the rule changes the bush administration made to the Clean Water act so that coal companies can maximize their production. The laws to protect our land are not there, thats what im fighting for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaintop_removal

[Coach_Owens87]

I only mentioned 23 because I didn't have time to type them all, apparently you missed # 19 (and the list goes on with another 75 Industrial or Commerical Operations and also includes 16 Farms or Agricultural Projects). WOW!!!

What difference does it make what the property is used for the fact is the property is being used. Yes there are 5 Airports on the list, but without surface mining creating these sites these wouldn't exist. The Big Sandy Regional Airport has a 5,000 foot runway it's still a little short for a commerical flight (Commerical flights need approx. 7,000' feet). Eastern Kentucky's topography makes it almost impossible to find a site suitable to build a 7,000' runway.

The Jail that I mentioned in Knott County is in the planning stage as was onother on the list.

Man do you realize that you just slapped over 30,000 coal miners in the face by calling them dishonest and lazy, when you said (let me qoute you "Today's coal industry isn't the same as it used to be it's not made up of unions and honest hard workers" Posted by Coach_Owens87 post # 25) Every mine or section that I've worked on has had several Christians that included Preachers, Ministers, Deacons, Sunday School Teachers that attend Church every time the doors are opened. To call these people dishonest and say they are not hard workers that their lazy just shows your IGNORANCE about everything!!!
How in the world can you call some one lazy when you have no clue of the work they do?


Ok thanks for taking me out of context. I never called todays mine workers lazy, gosh I can really tell you watch fox news, this is classic, take my words and twist them so they make me look bad. Calm down man, I never called you lazy, just that there a lot less miners today, because of MTR. My statement was that people confuse todays mine industry with the unionized industry of the past, which isnt the case.
You think by saying Christians work in the mines that I'm going to somehow think it's ok to practice MTR, NO. I stand up for what I believe in, no matter who challenges me or disagrees with me.

And the jail in Knott county has been canceled. We share a regional jail with perry county, Knott county didnt have the money to support the jail. Just like the power plant we where supposed to get. In Knott County, two former strip mines owned by Miller Bros, and Pocahontas's coal are being used for a youth center and ATV trails. I live in Knott County, this is how I knew this. Anyone who has been alive the last 4 years knows that plan was canceled, which just goes to show that your info is not current.

[Old School]

[quote=Coach_Owens87;391346]Did you even read it... The message stated that over the next ten years a projected 1 million acres will be destroyed, if you use alternative energies we can save those 1 million acres.. Please read the full message before jumping to a conclusion.

But we both agree that that money is not used to help this area We do agree the a lot of things are wrong with the coal industry

The ruling in West Virginia put a stop to four pending mine permits that the Army corps of engineers issued. It was around the 4th or 5th time Corps of Engineers has been sued. We do have energy sources to replace coal, you may not like it, but we do.


We should be proud to be from the mountains of eastern ky, and with that pride we should protect our home, not blow it away so others can prosper.

You may want to read your own post before jummping to conclusions nowhere in that post is the word "PROJECTED".

I said more money should be sent to the producing Counties, I did not say the money is not being used to help this area.

I never said a lot of things are wrong with the coal industry, but no industry is perfect.

You have said over and over that we have energy sources to replace coal and over and over again I have ask you what they are, and all you can come up with is Wind Power, then you tell us in 10 years it will only be able to repace about 13% of the over 50% that coal supplies now. Where is the other 37% going to come from?

You keep saying I'm only interrested in coal as a energy source, take a look back at all of my posts how many times have I stated that I have no problem with wind power and that we do need other energy sources at least 3 or 4 times.

I was reading a article on the "Cape Cod Wind Project" this project consist of 130 400 foot tall wind turbines and President Bush is supporting this project, but guess who is opposing the project the one and only U.S. Sentor Ted Kennedy. Why would Kennedy oppose a wind farm off shore at Cape Cod? Is it because he doesn't want to look at 130 400 foot tall turbines when he walks out his yard. I guess it ok to have them in our back yard but not his. You know what is ironic about this is that you, President Bush and I agree on Wind Power

[Old School]

[quote=Coach_Owens87;391359]Ok thanks for taking me out of context. I never called todays mine workers lazy, gosh I can really tell you watch fox news, this is classic, take my words and twist them so they make me look bad. Calm down man, I never called you lazy, just that there a lot less miners today, because of MTR. My statement was that people confuse todays mine industry with the unionized industry of the past, which isnt the case.
You think by saying Christians work in the mines that I'm going to somehow think it's ok to practice MTR, NO. I stand up for what I believe in, no matter who challenges me or disagrees with me.

I didn't take you out of context, I repeated word for word your statement, how can you twist "Todays coal industry isn't the same, as it used to be it's not made up of unions and honest hard workers" you are the one that said it. I said Christians work in the mines when you accused coal miners of being DISHONEST people.

[Coach_Owens87]

[quote=Coach_Owens87;391359]Ok thanks for taking me out of context. I never called todays mine workers lazy, gosh I can really tell you watch fox news, this is classic, take my words and twist them so they make me look bad. Calm down man, I never called you lazy, just that there a lot less miners today, because of MTR. My statement was that people confuse todays mine industry with the unionized industry of the past, which isnt the case.
You think by saying Christians work in the mines that I'm going to somehow think it's ok to practice MTR, NO. I stand up for what I believe in, no matter who challenges me or disagrees with me.

I didn't take you out of context, I repeated word for word your statement, how can you twist "Todays coal industry isn't the same, as it used to be it's not made up of unions and honest hard workers" you are the one that said it. I said Christians work in the mines when you accused coal miners of being DISHONEST people.


You can sit and put me down all you want, it's not going to change my mind.
You mention uses for former strip sites, I say that only 1% is being used. You say how much money is made, I state the money doesnt help this region. I guess I really hit a nerve with some of my statements, which is great, it's been enjoyable seeing you so ticked off.

You may have a point, In a rush to present my argument I may have said some things out of context. To read the whole article on wind power you can go to http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2006/02/16/reece/
Wind power can't solve all energy problems, but its a start, we need to break out addiction to fossil fuels.

If anyone thinks I put miners down I didnt, All I was trying to say is that the coal industry has changed, jobs have decreased and it is no longer made up the union mines like it used to be. You cant argue with that, but many people still confuse todays coal industry to that of the past, and choose not to think of the issue any farther. I just wish people would see the harm MTR is causing, but the truth has not been spoken to enough yet, knowledge is contagious, and eventually it will spread through this region. With the new google earth program people can get a view of what is happening, hopefully this will wake people up. The term dont believe it till you see it has never been so true.

We can argue all we want, but we arent going to change each others opinion. I just hope that everyone studies the issue for themselves and comes to the best conclusion.

The facts are out there for everyone to see, but obviously you only see things from one side. Not once have you ever addressed the damage done to the environment, we all share the earth and it's our duty to protect it.

This area is ravished with poverty, our drinking water is unsuitable in most areas, and our land is being destroyed. The only way to move foward is through change.

I have better things to do then involve myself in an argument that isnt proving anything.

[Old School]

OK let's look at it from this angle the Environmentalist are concerned about about coal companies filling streams and destroyiing the aquatic life in these steams, so they projest all mining projects. Why is it you never see them protesting Highway projects, they fill in more streams (with the same rock and dirt that goes into hillow fills on surface mines) than any mining operation will. Do you ever see anyone protesting raw sewage going directly into the steams, just drive up any back road or hollow in any county and look at all the straight pipes with raw sewage being dumped into the streams. When your driving anywhere in Eastern KY ever notice all of those small roads cut around the hill sides those are not from mining, those are roads loggers have made to bring the logs to a loading station. Loggers can cut roads anywhere on their leased property go thru creeks with their equipment, and even drag the logs thru the creeks, but do these Environmentlist protest Loggong operations. Why don't these Environmentist ever protest the huge shopping centers being built across the nation (did you ever look at a empty parking lot at the mall and see all of those oil spills, anti freeze leaks on the pavement, did you ever wonder what happens to those spills when it rains where does it go?). My question is why would a true Environmentalist only protest mining operation and turn a blind eye to roads filling streams, raw sewage going directly into streams, all of these other projects.

[Old School]

We live in the most beautiful part of the country IMO and Tourism should be our #1 industry.
This hand wringing over loosing the coal industry is BS anyway. The coal industry needs to be cleaned up but it doesn't need to be abolished.

Coal mining is the most regulated industry in the nation we have State inspectors (Safety, Electrical, Ventilation, DEP), Federal inspectors (Safety, Electrical, Ventilation), OSM does oversite investigations, ATF inspectors monitor our use of explosives, EPA inspections.

Coal Mining Permits have changed drastically over the years, here's a example in 1980 when I started a 500 acre mining permit appalication would constist of approx. 50 pages with about 5 or 6 maps, it would take about 3 months to have this permit appalication approved by the state and would cost about $4,000 dollars. Today this same 500 acre permit appalication will consist of over 2,000 pages with about 50 to 75 maps and will take 24 to 30 months to have this permit approved and will cost between $400,000 and $500,000 dollars. This cost does not include all of the other studies required by the state.

[Old School]

[quote=Coach_Owens87;391612]


I guess I really hit a nerve with some of my statements, which is great, it's been enjoyable seeing you so ticked off.

We can argue all we want, but we arent going to change each others opinion. I just hope that everyone studies the issue for themselves and comes to the best conclusion.

The facts are out there for everyone to see, but obviously you only see things from one side. Not once have you ever addressed the damage done to the environment, we all share the earth and it's our duty to protect it.

I must admit you did hit a nerve with some of your statements, but I believe I also hit a nerve or two with you on some of my statements.

I agree everyone needs to study the issue for themself's.

(co87 but obviously you only see things from one side) Now this is funny lol Here I have 27 years experience in mining, I know how the mines are operated daily, I think I'm better informed (on both sides) than you want to admit. I also see what the environmentlist are accusing mining companies of doing and how so many of the accusations are exggerated. You said, (CO87 "I know all the dirty secrets of the mining companies" ) but you never worked in the coal industry, your only ties to surface mining are the visits you've made over the years. So how do you know what is going on at these mining operations you don't. Tell me what have you posted on this subject that hasn't come from the Environmentalist.

[Coach_Owens87]

OK let's look at it from this angle the Environmentalist are concerned about about coal companies filling streams and destroyiing the aquatic life in these steams, so they projest all mining projects. Why is it you never see them protesting Highway projects, they fill in more streams (with the same rock and dirt that goes into hillow fills on surface mines) than any mining operation will. Do you ever see anyone protesting raw sewage going directly into the steams, just drive up any back road or hollow in any county and look at all the straight pipes with raw sewage being dumped into the streams. When your driving anywhere in Eastern KY ever notice all of those small roads cut around the hill sides those are not from mining, those are roads loggers have made to bring the logs to a loading station. Loggers can cut roads anywhere on their leased property go thru creeks with their equipment, and even drag the logs thru the creeks, but do these Environmentlist protest Loggong operations. Why don't these Environmentist ever protest the huge shopping centers being built across the nation (did you ever look at a empty parking lot at the mall and see all of those oil spills, anti freeze leaks on the pavement, did you ever wonder what happens to those spills when it rains where does it go?). My question is why would a true Environmentalist only protest mining operation and turn a blind eye to roads filling streams, raw sewage going directly into streams, all of these other projects.


First off working in the mines makes you no more informed than john who works at food city. In this day and age, all the info we need is availble for everyone to see.

You say I have no ties, which I do, I have numerous family members who work in the mines, and dozens of freinds, I actually have two mine inspectors that I talk to on a regular basis. The only thing that your 27 years experience does it prove that your just as bais as me. I wont mining to stop, you want it to continue.

Ok there sallie, hold up. I asked about mining, and you avoid the question. Yes it's wrong to dump raw sewage into a creek, but there already polluted from mining run-off so both would have to be stopped to make a difference. The raw sewage running into creeks is not as bad as it used to be, laws have prevented that from happening.
We do protest logging operations, they do just as much harm as MTR, but during logging operations, trees can be re-grown rather quickly. Logging does not fill in streams, logging does not flattten thousands of acres of forrest, which changes the run off of water from a mountain and causes flooding. Controlled logging, not Clear cutting, could be a permanent income for this area.

Ok you mention cutting roads, and are comparing that to flattening thousands of acres of land, that just doesn't make sense. Your talking to me like I dont know what eastern ky looks like, I live here, I know about logging, raw sewage and highways, but that wasnt my question to you.
You cant compare oil spills on parking lots to the damage done by mining, come on. Have you ever looked in a creek in this area, look at the orange and black gunk on the bottom, thats magnesium, coal sludge, zinc and other metals from mining. why arent mining companies testing creek waters and doing something to prevent the run off from underground and surface mines. Thats what poising our waters and killing aquatic life, not billy bob changing oil at wal-mart. Research the slurry break in Inez, it was 20 times the size of the exxon oil spill in Buffalo, 300 million gallons of coal sludge dumped into the Big sandy, but no one heard about it. why? Becuase the mining companies kept it as quiet as possible by greatly misinforming people on the damage done. Just think about all the other suldge impound mounts in this area. There just not built to last. Research the Marsh FOrk Elementary school to see just how much coal companies care about the youth and the community.
You never answered my question about mining and the envioronment, quit throwing blame onto other issues, and answer my question straight up. Major Highways, logging, and construction do cause harm, but that wasnt my question.

[Coach_Owens87]

Oldschool here is something you dont have. there is scientific evidence that MTR is harming the enviornment. a statement was released showing this, but was ignored, just read this article to get the full story. Stop blaming other issues, and answer my question. I have proof, do you? Show me that MTR is a good thing, you cant. We only have one earth to use, we all have to protect it.

you can read the report here (union of concerned scientist)
http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/interference/mountaintop-removal-mining.html

[Beef]

The raw sewage running into creeks is not as bad as it used to be, laws have prevented that from happening. Just like laws have reduced the amount of pollution that coal companies emit. Everything causes problems to the environment (except for Al Gore's house and his carbon offsets.)

Oldschool here is something you dont have. there is scientific evidence that MTR is harming the enviornment. a statement was released showing this, but was ignored, just read this article to get the full story. Stop blaming other issues, and answer my question. I have proof, do you? Show me that MTR is a good thing, you cant. We only have one earth to use, we all have to protect it.

you can read the report here (union of concerned scientist)
http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/interference/mountaintop-removal-mining.html
I do believe that he has showed you the evidence that MTR is good. Have you just forgotten about all the financial proof that he has given? Then again, you want it to stop. So if we quit tomorrow, the region dies. And I mean, dies.

[Coach_Owens87]

Just like laws have reduced the amount of pollution that coal companies emit. Everything causes problems to the environment (except for Al Gore's house and his carbon offsets.)


I do believe that he has showed you the evidence that MTR is good. Have you just forgotten about all the financial proof that he has given? Then again, you want it to stop. So if we quit tomorrow, the region dies. And I mean, dies.

The question I asked oldschool was about the environmental issues involved with MTR, not money, I never attempted to say Mining didn't make money, the money just doesn't help this region. It doesn't take genius to know this area is stricken with poverty, our school systems suck, and there are little no to job options outside of mining. This area is monopolized by mining, kids that get an education have little to do here, so they move off. We don't have skilled workers here, thats why no big companies we locate here.

You say if mining is stopped the region dies, I didn't say stop mining, just that MTR should be stopped, only 20% of our the national coal production comes from MTR. You say the region will die, well beef in case you haven't noticed, it's already on life support.

[Old School]

First off working in the mines makes you no more informed than john who works at food city. In this day and age, all the info we need is availble for everyone to see.

You say I have no ties, which I do, I have numerous family members who work in the mines, and dozens of freinds, I actually have two mine inspectors that I talk to on a regular basis. The only thing that your 27 years experience does it prove that your just as bais as me. I wont mining to stop, you want it to continue.

Ok there sallie, hold up. I asked about mining, and you avoid the question. Yes it's wrong to dump raw sewage into a creek, but there already polluted from mining run-off so both would have to be stopped to make a difference. The raw sewage running into creeks is not as bad as it used to be, laws have prevented that from happening.
We do protest logging operations, they do just as much harm as MTR, but during logging operations, trees can be re-grown rather quickly. Logging does not fill in streams, logging does not flattten thousands of acres of forrest, which changes the run off of water from a mountain and causes flooding. Controlled logging, not Clear cutting, could be a permanent income for this area.

Ok you mention cutting roads, and are comparing that to flattening thousands of acres of land, that just doesn't make sense. Your talking to me like I dont know what eastern ky looks like, I live here, I know about logging, raw sewage and highways, but that wasnt my question to you.
You cant compare oil spills on parking lots to the damage done by mining, come on. Have you ever looked in a creek in this area, look at the orange and black gunk on the bottom, thats magnesium, coal sludge, zinc and other metals from mining. why arent mining companies testing creek waters and doing something to prevent the run off from underground and surface mines. Thats what poising our waters and killing aquatic life, not billy bob changing oil at wal-mart. Research the slurry break in Inez, it was 20 times the size of the exxon oil spill in Buffalo, 300 million gallons of coal sludge dumped into the Big sandy, but no one heard about it. why? Becuase the mining companies kept it as quiet as possible by greatly misinforming people on the damage done. Just think about all the other suldge impound mounts in this area. There just not built to last. Research the Marsh FOrk Elementary school to see just how much coal companies care about the youth and the community.
You never answered my question about mining and the envioronment, quit throwing blame onto other issues, and answer my question straight up. Major Highways, logging, and construction do cause harm, but that wasnt my question.

First off I completely disagree with you on this, a person that works in the mines is better informed about the daily operations and the environmental issues surrounding mining than someone who is not familiar with mining. How can you be informed about the mining process when you know absolutely nothing about mining? You can learn only so much from books and articles from the web, but there's no substitute for experience.

About your ties to mining, just because you have family working in mining does not make you a expert in mining, I have family members that are lawyers, but that doesn't make me a lawyer NO!

You keep saying that I'm bias toward the coal industry. How many times during this thread have I said "I for alternate energy and I have no problem with wind power" but for some reason you choose to ignore those comments.

You said you want mining to stop and I want it to continue, yes I do want it to continue atleast until we have something to replace it with, I know you keep saying we have alternate energy to replace coal, and you suggested wind power, but you even said that it will take at least 10 years with the assistance of underground mining to reach 13% of our energy needs. What happens to the other 37% of our energy needs, do you think this Nation can reduce it energy needs by 37% in the next 10 years. Our demand for energy is rising every year. Common sense tell me we need to find a replacement for coal, whatever it shall be before we outlaw the use of coal alltogether.

You ask why Mining companies don't test the creek water.
This is why I say a person with mining experience is better informed about the mining operations and environmental issues, We do test the creek waters, before a permit can be submitted to the state you have to have 2 samples per month for 6 months, upstream and down stream of the area to be permitted this is continued during the permitting process and also during the mining process as well.

You mentioned the Martin County spill and I agree that was a disaster, that shouldn't have ever happend, but the coal industry isn't the only industry that has had disasters what about Nuclar disaster at Three Mile Island or the Chemical leak at Bhophal India, what about the distillary in Kentucky that spilled 500,000 gallons of Wild Turkey into the Kentucky River or countless other disasters. It's unfortunate that disaster happen but hopefully we can learn from our mistakes and not let them happen again. I'm not sure where you were for the 2 months after the spill in Martin County, heck I was in Florida the day of the spill and I heard about it on the news.

When you say sludge impound mount are you referring to a Slurry Impoundment?
The Starter Phase (the first step of the Impoundment)of the slurry impoundment is built out of dirt and rock after the starter phase is completed Phase 1 starts and course refuse is added in 1 foot lifts and is compacted to the designed rate approved in the permit. Compaction can be obtained several different ways such as trucks driving back and forth across the area, loaders can be used or rollers like you see on road construction jobs are sometimes used. We had a independent Engineering company come out every other day and check to make sure we reached our compaction rate. The slurry (which is coal fines and water) are pumped into the Impoundment with the fines settleing near the embankment and the water working it's way to the back of the impundment where it becomes clear and is pumped back to the plant. As the Impoundment is nearing compleation (coal fines reaching their max. designed level) the excess water is pumped out and the remainder of the impoundment is graded so that no water can stand behind the embankment, after the impoundment is closed out it will be just a big hollow fill.

Talking about Marsh Fork Ele. I read the other day that Environmentalist were pushing the state for a new school but the majority of the teachers and parents did not want one, maybe there not as upset as you think.

By using the environmentalist diffinition of a stream 95% of their "streams" that are coverd with dirt and rock are actually intermitent or ephemeral "streams" those that flow only during a rain or snow event, personally I would say that these are dry branches or gullies. Since the environmentlist are able to call these "streams" before mining starts then one would have to consider all of the diversion ditches built during and after mining should also be called "streams" this would almost triple the length of steams prior to mining so if they say mining has destroyed 700 miles of streams, mining should be able to claim at least 1,500 miles of new stream chanels. What about the many acres of wetlands created during reclamation on our jobs alone we have appox. 50 acres of wetlands that are used by Ducks, Geese, Turkey and other fowl Deer, Bears, Foxes, Coyotes, Bobcats and other animals use these waters. With all of the laws, rules and guideline's that mining has to follow today I have to say that mining helps the environment, but that is my opinion and I know that you will disagree with me but what's new.

[Coach_Owens87]

First off I completely disagree with you on this, a person that works in the mines is better informed about the daily operations and the environmental issues surrounding mining than someone who is not familiar with mining. How can you be informed about the mining process when you know absolutely nothing about mining? You can learn only so much from books and articles from the web, but there's no substitute for experience.

About your ties to mining, just because you have family working in mining does not make you a expert in mining, I have family members that are lawyers, but that doesn't make me a lawyer NO!

You keep saying that I'm bias toward the coal industry. How many times during this thread have I said "I for alternate energy and I have no problem with wind power" but for some reason you choose to ignore those comments.

You said you want mining to stop and I want it to continue, yes I do want it to continue atleast until we have something to replace it with, I know you keep saying we have alternate energy to replace coal, and you suggested wind power, but you even said that it will take at least 10 years with the assistance of underground mining to reach 13% of our energy needs. What happens to the other 37% of our energy needs, do you think this Nation can reduce it energy needs by 37% in the next 10 years. Our demand for energy is rising every year. Common sense tell me we need to find a replacement for coal, whatever it shall be before we outlaw the use of coal alltogether.

You ask why Mining companies don't test the creek water.
This is why I say a person with mining experience is better informed about the mining operations and environmental issues, We do test the creek waters, before a permit can be submitted to the state you have to have 2 samples per month for 6 months, upstream and down stream of the area to be permitted this is continued during the permitting process and also during the mining process as well.

You mentioned the Martin County spill and I agree that was a disaster, that shouldn't have ever happend, but the coal industry isn't the only industry that has had disasters what about Nuclar disaster at Three Mile Island or the Chemical leak at Bhophal India, what about the distillary in Kentucky that spilled 500,000 gallons of Wild Turkey into the Kentucky River or countless other disasters. It's unfortunate that disaster happen but hopefully we can learn from our mistakes and not let them happen again. I'm not sure where you were for the 2 months after the spill in Martin County, heck I was in Florida the day of the spill and I heard about it on the news.

When you say sludge impound mount are you referring to a Slurry Impoundment?
The Starter Phase (the first step of the Impoundment)of the slurry impoundment is built out of dirt and rock after the starter phase is completed Phase 1 starts and course refuse is added in 1 foot lifts and is compacted to the designed rate approved in the permit. Compaction can be obtained several different ways such as trucks driving back and forth across the area, loaders can be used or rollers like you see on road construction jobs are sometimes used. We had a independent Engineering company come out every other day and check to make sure we reached our compaction rate. The slurry (which is coal fines and water) are pumped into the Impoundment with the fines settleing near the embankment and the water working it's way to the back of the impundment where it becomes clear and is pumped back to the plant. As the Impoundment is nearing compleation (coal fines reaching their max. designed level) the excess water is pumped out and the remainder of the impoundment is graded so that no water can stand behind the embankment, after the impoundment is closed out it will be just a big hollow fill.

Talking about Marsh Fork Ele. I read the other day that Environmentalist were pushing the state for a new school but the majority of the teachers and parents did not want one, maybe there not as upset as you think.

By using the environmentalist diffinition of a stream 95% of their "streams" that are coverd with dirt and rock are actually intermitent or ephemeral "streams" those that flow only during a rain or snow event, personally I would say that these are dry branches or gullies. Since the environmentlist are able to call these "streams" before mining starts then one would have to consider all of the diversion ditches built during and after mining should also be called "streams" this would almost triple the length of steams prior to mining so if they say mining has destroyed 700 miles of streams, mining should be able to claim at least 1,500 miles of new stream chanels. What about the many acres of wetlands created during reclamation on our jobs alone we have appox. 50 acres of wetlands that are used by Ducks, Geese, Turkey and other fowl Deer, Bears, Foxes, Coyotes, Bobcats and other animals use these waters. With all of the laws, rules and guideline's that mining has to follow today I have to say that mining helps the environment, but that is my opinion and I know that you will disagree with me but what's new.

Intermittent or not, it's still a stream by definition. Nature put those gullies and streams there for a reason, and when a company goes in, blast away all the top soil, mines 200-300 feet off the top of the mountain and then pushes the dirt into nearby valleys serious problems are bound to occur. Some mining companies are better than other at reclamation, but the majority do a poor job. The reason a ditch is not called a stream is because it's man made, streams have to occur naturally.

The problem with the Marsh Fork elementary school is that they are blasting near the sludge impoundment that has violated state regulations, it's currently leaking. They have made no attempts to fix the slurry impoundment. Im sure that environmentalist are making this a bigger issue than what it is, but the health of those kids is very important. What will the coal companies say if this impoundment breaks and kills those children.

To say the Mining helps the enviornment is crazy. It took nature millions of years to create those streams, valleys, and forest, but you think that man can come in blow all that away and things will be better? come on.

Im sure you are a great person, but I don't think we can debate this issue anymore, we have both given all the facts we have and our now just going on opinion. I just hope that mining can at least be controlled better untill we find a suitable energy replacement.