Shooting at Va. Tech

[ComfortEagle]

BLACKSBURG, Va. - One person was killed and seven or eight more were shot in a dorm and in a classroom on the Virginia Tech campus Monday before police arrested a suspected gunman, officials told The Associated Press. Police confirmed they had a suspect in custody, the university said on its Web site.
On the Web site, the university also confirmed the shooting at opposite ends of the 2,600-acre campus at West Ambler Johnston, a residence hall, and reported “multiple victims” at Norris Hall, an engineering building.




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/

[15thRegionCrazy]

That's crazy! I will keep all involved in my prayers. I hope they have the right suspect in custody!

[15thRegionCrazy]

MSNBC is now saying one killed, up to 17 wounded.

[-STAT-]

Thats very scary and bad right there. All involved will be in my prayers.

[15thRegionCrazy]

CNN, MSNBC and Fox News all have coverage on about it right now

[ComfortEagle]

NBC just reported that 20 are dead, 28 injured, and the presumed suspect is dead as well.

They are not sure if the shooter killed himself or was shot by authorities.

[15thRegionCrazy]

They are now reporting at least 20 dead and 28 injured... and the gunman was shot and killed

[15thRegionCrazy]

Victims were shot in a science and engineering classroom and in 2 different dorms, Ambler Johnston Hall and Norris Hall... the gunman was shot and killed in Norris Hall...

The first shooting occured in Ambler Johnston Hall, the 2nd in the classroom and the 3rd in Norris Hall.

There was also multiple bomb threats on the campus just last week

[Beef]

Norris hall is the Engineering Building. Only 2 locations where shootings occurred.

22 Dead -- 20+ injured.

Very Sad.

[15thRegionCrazy]

Yeah... CNN reported 2 buildings.. I think it was WSAZ that said they thought 3 locations... but I just saw where it was 2

[TATE_64]

They are saying 29 wounded now and 22 dead..... Man this is crazy.....

They said the last 2 weeks they have had multiple bomb threats on campus.

[TATE_64]

MSNBC just reported the death toll is up to 31.....

[Dream_Weaver]

This is every parent's worse nightmare.

God comfort those who have lost a child and heal those who were injured.

[VHSL-helper]

Can't believe that 50+ were shot. First, the "brick wrapped in aluminum foil" bomb in Newman/Torgenson, then Morva in the Fall, now this. Totally unreal.
------
Those news anchors are pathetic.
"Where did the shooter hide duing those 2 hours?"
"... a long way between locations".
Have any of them EVER been on a college campus?
Yes, Norris is a hike from AJ (about 10 minutes on foot), but come on, that's nothing!
And why try to "hide"? Best hiding place on campus is out in the open.
Wouldn't surprise me to hear that the shooter was in Deitrich for breakfast at 8 a.m.
And before you ask, yes, I've been in AJ before. Back in h.s., I went to 4-H state congress a few years, and the check-in desk was at AJ (girls stayed there, boys over in Lee).

Just glad CNN hasn't brought up the ASL shootings ... yet.

[VHSL-helper]

Also didn't help that MedFlight couldn't get there form Roanoke because of the wind.

[alfus21]

Up to 32 dead now including the shooter and 28 wounded. Hard to believe one person could do such a horrific thing.

[thecavemaster]

HUGE thoughts and prayers to all those who lost
loved ones today at Virginia Tech.... The
media keep fishing with leading questions about
what could have been done and when emails were
sent...as for me, I don't see how these types
of things can be prevented. I know we all have
a desire to feel safe...but we just don't live
in a world where complete safety can be any
kind of guarantee.

[thetribe]

Now up to 33 dead including the shooter according to Va. Tech Press.

I've been watching the news coverage on and off all day and all that I can say is that this is a horrific tragedy. My heart goes out to all parties involved. I cannot begin to imagine how the parents of these children are feeling, other loved ones of them as well, family members of any professors if they were involved, students that had to watch their friends die at their feet, just so many people across the nation, perhaps the world involved right now. I too have been on VT's campus and there isn't THAT big of a distance between the two locations. Why would someone hide for 2 hours and then go on another shooting rampage? Would the police not be right on top of the situation trying to find out who did it before 2 hours passed and he struck again?

[15thRegionCrazy]

That's what I was thinking... why wasn't the school on lockdown after the first shooting??? Everybody should have been notified and this would have been a lot less tragic

[Beef]

What the Chief of Police and the Univ. President said was that they believed it to be an isolated incident of domestic disturbance. From witness accounts, they had a person of interest and they believed that person to be off campus so they campus was determined to be safe. When the second incident occurred, Investigators were interviewing the 'Person of Interest' at an off-campus location.

You have to remember that this is University that has over 30,000 people on site each day. It is almost impossible to communicate with all of these individuals. They took all means necessary once they determined to place the school on lock down. But there is only so much they can do -- E-mail (some people don't check before class), Phone (some people don't have room phones), Radio (most probably don't listen to that), website (again, most don't check), call-in number (no one would call on what they thought to be a normal day).

I believe that the University did what they believed to be the proper decision.

[15thRegionCrazy]

I think if a shooting occurs, until the suspect is in custody the school should be on lockdown and they should have at least tried to notify everybody (a little quicker than 2 hours later)... I know it would have been hard for them to but I just don't think it was handled properly. And I don't think they shouldn't have assumed it was isolated... it's always better to take the highest precaution to any shooting.

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Only complaint I have about this situation is the videos going along with it. You see all these police carrying out bodies when they should have been inside trying to take down the shooter.

[thetribe]

The video I saw included the swat team of police standing outside of a building when all you hear is POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! on the inside. Maybe it's just me but having bigger guns, bulletproof vests and helmets, etc. AND being officers of law entitles them to enter the building and take down the gunman...

[baseballfan]

Very sad Day at VT. I'm keeping everyone there and the people who died and thier faimly's in my prayers

[Beef]

Only complaint I have about this situation is the videos going along with it. You see all these police carrying out bodies when they should have been inside trying to take down the shooter. Considering these videos are after the shooter has killed himself and the officers are trying to carry the wounded to safety and get them help. Don't see anything wrong with trying to save a life. The bodies that you see in the pictures being carried out are of live people.

The video I saw included the swat team of police standing outside of a building when all you hear is POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! POP! on the inside. Maybe it's just me but having bigger guns, bulletproof vests and helmets, etc. AND being officers of law entitles them to enter the building and take down the gunman... Police NEVER rush into a possible hostage/shooting situation. They have to ***** the situation and make a plan. The gunman wasn't alive in the building for very long, and police were on the steps heading to the second floor when the shooting stopped and he took his life. I would think that he did all of the killing in the second building in under 15 minutes.

[VHSL-helper]

my .02 (more like .22)

First, I'm so sick of the idiotic talking heads - all hot air. Speculation and the oh-so-perfect hindsight anaysis, commenting on 1 bit of info without putting the rest of the pieces in place first. For example - the gunman entered a swipe-card access dorm. Well, yeah, it is SCA, but only at night. I heard earlier today that it's turned off at 7 am. ... anyone can enter after that. And even overnight, a "guest" can enter if someone lets them in. Come on, people, college dorms don't have chastity belts on them.

Paula is such an airhead, saying something like "the shots heard on the video didn't
come from police, because there wasn't a shootout with the killer". Girl, one has nothing to do with the other. Grundy used to put chains on the doors at night. The thing is, the doors would open enough that someone could reach in and unlock the lock with a key. MAYBE the police had the door ajar and was trying to shoot through the lock. 25 tries and no luck, so, BOOM, blast the thing. Not saying that's what happened, but it blows a big hole in her A=B theory.

And what's all this stuff about students being locked (chained) in Norris? Half a dozen of 'em have said this. Come on, heads, do a LITTLE thinking. Were the chains meat to keep people IN? I Don't THINK So. Couldn't 1 of you, just 1, have come up with "maybe he was trying to keep the police locked OUT" ?!?!?!? Nahhhhh, too simple.

Next, no one EVER said the AJ shooter was the same person as the Norris shooter. The cop answered a question about "the shooter still being out there" with something like "he was found in Norris". The question didn't have anything to do with AJ, so why was the anwser applied to AJ? Come on... anyone can take a quote and make it sound any way they want ... why not make it sound like it was supposed to for once ???

And what's all this about him hiding for 2 hours? I never heard that anywhere.
Hey, why would he hide? He walked out of AJ before anyone could do anything. It's not like each dorm has a cop at every door 24 hours. As long as he could get to the stairs or the elevator without a confrontation, he was home free. And what student is going to confront or run down the stairs safter an armed guy?

Was it the same guy in both places? Probably so, since it doesn't seem like a big deal is being made out of the AJ shooter being loose. Balistics takes a while - cops can't just pull a bullet out of live victims and determine what gun it was from. It'll really F things up if it turns out they're was a 3rd gun.

So, what about those 2 and a half hours?
How about this scenario?
Will I hide? Walk across campus? Things didn't go the way I had planned at AJ, so I'll walk ACROSS THE STREET and take the BT back to my apartment, take off these bloody clothes, put on something a bit warmer, grab another gun and some more ammo, and ride BT BACK to Burruss, then walk up to Norris and fix this up good.

WAY too much talk by people who don't "put brain in gear before opening mouth."
Gee, didn't someone get FIRED last week for doing the same thing?
Bring back Imus and get rid of Zahn!

Finally ...

Thumbs up to NBC. Great job getting Brian Williams and a crew there to be live. Lots of facts with basically no speculation. PRICELESS scene of 20 other reporters chasing after the EMS girl after she finished.

Thumbs down - CNN/Wolf Blitzer. The CT editor saying she first heard about the AJ deal when someone from CNN called her at home (whether or not it was planned) was self-promotion at it's ugliest.

[Beef]

I do believe that the dorms are locked from 10pm-10am. But it isn't too hard to get into a "locked" dorm. Wait for someone to walk out. On a day of classes, this wouldn't be too hard at all.

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Considering these videos are after the shooter has killed himself and the officers are trying to carry the wounded to safety and get them help. Don't see anything wrong with trying to save a life. The bodies that you see in the pictures being carried out are of live people.

Police NEVER rush into a possible hostage/shooting situation. They have to ***** the situation and make a plan. The gunman wasn't alive in the building for very long, and police were on the steps heading to the second floor when the shooting stopped and he took his life. I would think that he did all of the killing in the second building in under 15 minutes.

So that main video, where they counted 27 gunshots, what exactly were they shooting at if you say the gunman was already killed? I think u misunderstood what I was saying, in that video, you count like 26 gunshots, and then you see the officers in the video take off running, they shouldn't have been standing there in the first place, they had shotguns and vests, these guys could have been in the buildings trying to get this guy, but they were shown standing around. Heck, the guy videotaping with his cell phone was being almost as brave as the cops were at that time.

[TidesHoss32]

yeah, Im sure youve had countless expiriences handling mass killings and could have come up a perfect plan right on the spot..So that main video, where they counted 27 gunshots, what exactly were they shooting at if you say the gunman was already killed? I think u misunderstood what I was saying, in that video, you count like 26 gunshots, and then you see the officers in the video take off running, they shouldn't have been standing there in the first place, they had shotguns and vests, these guys could have been in the buildings trying to get this guy, but they were shown standing around. Heck, the guy videotaping with his cell phone was being almost as brave as the cops were at that time.

[Beef]

So that main video, where they counted 27 gunshots, what exactly were they shooting at if you say the gunman was already killed? I think u misunderstood what I was saying, in that video, you count like 26 gunshots, and then you see the officers in the video take off running, they shouldn't have been standing there in the first place, they had shotguns and vests, these guys could have been in the buildings trying to get this guy, but they were shown standing around. Heck, the guy videotaping with his cell phone was being almost as brave as the cops were at that time.
Are you talking about the video from the phone? If so, then the cops were still moving into position to make a run on the building. You see them advancing toward the building but being careful to try to keep cover so that they don't get shot. And not knowing where the shooter is, it is hard to watch all the windows. Vests don't stop a shot to the head/neck.

[alfus21]

Are you talking about the video from the phone? If so, then the cops were still moving into position to make a run on the building. You see them advancing toward the building but being careful to try to keep cover so that they don't get shot. And not knowing where the shooter is, it is hard to watch all the windows. Vests don't stop a shot to the head/neck.

I agree. They also had no clue how many shooters there were either. Lots of factors in this one, and it's really hard to blame the police for not storming in there without even thinking about it.

People need to realize that nothing of this magnitude has ever happened in the history of the United States.

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Only thing I witnessed from the phone video was 2 cops standing behind a tree and another behind a truck, they all just stand there until shots are firing, then the 3rd cop moves up, about 15 more shots go off and then they make forward movement. I would figure the police would have this place sealed off a long time ago since 2 hours previous someone was killed and the shooter was on the loose. You needed to have a total lock down and search of every building on the campus and a perimeter set up.

No, I don't have experience with this stuff, but my cousin is active Military Police and has to deal with this kind of stuff all the time, and through his 2 tours in Iraq. I have heard over and over how a situation like this is supposed to be handled.

Sorry if you guys feel differently, but I know that every building should have been searched within the hour of the shooting and this would have been prevented with a patrol of police roaming every building on campus for the rest of the day. It's not like they were in Virgie, KY where police would have taken a long time to respond, this could have been easily avoided but the wrong steps were taken.

And about not knowing how many shooters were in the building. I honestly feel that it doesn't matter, police are supposed to protect and serve, as soon as they felt a good amount of force was on hand, which should have been 30 minutes after a killing on a college campus, the entire campus should have been rushed with swat and police, you can see these police weren't just chasing someone down, they were armed and ready to take someone down, but ended up just carrying bodies out.

[Beef]

Only thing I witnessed from the phone video was 2 cops standing behind a tree and another behind a truck, they all just stand there until shots are firing, then the 3rd cop moves up, about 15 more shots go off and then they make forward movement. I would figure the police would have this place sealed off a long time ago since 2 hours previous someone was killed and the shooter was on the loose. You needed to have a total lock down and search of every building on the campus and a perimeter set up.

No, I don't have experience with this stuff, but my cousin is active Military Police and has to deal with this kind of stuff all the time, and through his 2 tours in Iraq. I have heard over and over how a situation like this is supposed to be handled.

Sorry if you guys feel differently, but I know that every building should have been searched within the hour of the shooting and this would have been prevented with a patrol of police roaming every building on campus for the rest of the day. It's not like they were in Virgie, KY where police would have taken a long time to respond, this could have been easily avoided but the wrong steps were taken.

And about not knowing how many shooters were in the building. I honestly feel that it doesn't matter, police are supposed to protect and serve, as soon as they felt a good amount of force was on hand, which should have been 30 minutes after a killing on a college campus, the entire campus should have been rushed with swat and police, you can see these police weren't just chasing someone down, they were armed and ready to take someone down, but ended up just carrying bodies out. Considering they were talking to there only 'person of interest' (the man who witnesses said did the first shooting), they didn't feel the need to search the other buildings. And with I believe 2,600 acres and 100's of buildings, that is easier said then done.

This was a tragedy, but was it handled in the right way? As of now, to me it seems. Police never rush into a building that has gun fire coming out of it. Maybe a SWAT team with full body armor, but not a normal patrol man. Find out information about anything similar, I don't believe that the first responders swarmed the building immediately.

[FOX SPORTS]

And what's all this stuff about students being locked (chained) in Norris? Half a dozen of 'em have said this. Come on, heads, do a LITTLE thinking. Were the chains meat to keep people IN? I Don't THINK So.



Eye witness reports say that the shooter did indeed chain two classroom doors so that students could not get out while he was walking the hall.

[15thRegionCrazy]

A Doctor from the Montgomery Regional Hospital said "There wasn't a victim with less than 3 gunshot wounds"

[THUNDERCHILD]

Here is a link to the school web paper. If this falls under a rules violation please remove.

http://www.planetblacksburg.com/

[ComfortEagle]

CBS just had a press release announcing the shooter, his name was Cho Seung-Hui.

[rallo316]

I hope congress does not start blaming gun owners for this congress is the ones who took prayer out schools and let the devil in.

[Beef]

CBS just had a press release announcing the shooter, his name was Seung Hui Cho.From South Korea

And world news has already started blaming the right to bear arms for this. There was an article in a London England paper covering the topic.

[rallo316]

I pray for the families.

[BFritz]

I read most of the posts, but didn't see this, so sorry if it's already been said.......

We were talking in class and the professor and a few students said that it's the biggest mass murder in United States history. I don't know how true it is, but every occurance that they mentioned, including Columbine, didn't have as many killed as this instance.

[Batpuff]

Well to give a little professional insight. and being one that was trained to responded to school shootings. From what I have seen and heard they (police) were doing what they were trained. They are trained to go toward the shots and at a slow but quick pace. And if they encounter wounded or unwounded they are told to head toward the exit were other are waiting to get them to saftey. So it could take a longer if there is a lot of open doors. Ok then you have to taken in the stairways. Theres a certain way that they have to climb the stairs that takes even longer. So its not they just rush in and get the bad guy. And usually its one 6 man team that goes in.

[Batpuff]

Also if they encounter a open door along the way they have to search that room on the way even if the shooting is still going on to make sure they are not going to get jumped from someone in the the room.

[THUNDERCHILD]

From South Korea

And world news has already started blaming the right to bear arms for this. There was an article in a London England paper covering the topic.
Dr. Phil said last night that part of the problem is violent video games. I wondered when they would hit on them again.

Prayers for the Hoakies

[Batpuff]

I read most of the posts, but didn't see this, so sorry if it's already been said.......

We were talking in class and the professor and a few students said that it's the biggest mass murder in United States history. I don't know how true it is, but every occurance that they mentioned, including Columbine, didn't have as many killed as this instance.

Up until now the worst was at Texas university in the 80's

[Batpuff]

Only thing I witnessed from the phone video was 2 cops standing behind a tree and another behind a truck, they all just stand there until shots are firing, then the 3rd cop moves up, about 15 more shots go off and then they make forward movement. I would figure the police would have this place sealed off a long time ago since 2 hours previous someone was killed and the shooter was on the loose. You needed to have a total lock down and search of every building on the campus and a perimeter set up.

No, I don't have experience with this stuff, but my cousin is active Military Police and has to deal with this kind of stuff all the time, and through his 2 tours in Iraq. I have heard over and over how a situation like this is supposed to be handled.

Sorry if you guys feel differently, but I know that every building should have been searched within the hour of the shooting and this would have been prevented with a patrol of police roaming every building on campus for the rest of the day. It's not like they were in Virgie, KY where police would have taken a long time to respond, this could have been easily avoided but the wrong steps were taken.

And about not knowing how many shooters were in the building. I honestly feel that it doesn't matter, police are supposed to protect and serve, as soon as they felt a good amount of force was on hand, which should have been 30 minutes after a killing on a college campus, the entire campus should have been rushed with swat and police, you can see these police weren't just chasing someone down, they were armed and ready to take someone down, but ended up just carrying bodies out.
Read my post it explains it a little bit.

[15thRegionCrazy]

Authorities evacuated buildings Tuesday at St. Edward's University after a threatening note was found.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/university.bomb.threat.ap/index.html

[15thRegionCrazy]

Here are profiles of some of the victims...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18143312/

[BFritz]

On Yahoo's homepage, they have the picture of the killer, and it says "Quiet Student, Campus Killer." That's the type of thing that ****es me off: they're trying to make it more of a drama-filled movie type thing than just the story. Don't get me wrong, it's horrible and everyone should know about it, but they're glorrifying the story.

[15thRegionCrazy]

Here's some more info. on the shooter. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/

They said he had been referred to the school's couseling service after some creating writing of his that was very disturbing.

[Beef]

I read most of the posts, but didn't see this, so sorry if it's already been said.......

We were talking in class and the professor and a few students said that it's the biggest mass murder in United States history. I don't know how true it is, but every occurance that they mentioned, including Columbine, didn't have as many killed as this instance.
It is by like 8-10 deaths.

[Batpuff]

Here is a great article about this take time to read it and look at the images.
http://emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?sectionId=1&id=5191

[VHSL-helper]

Eye witness reports say that the shooter did indeed chain two classroom doors so that students could not get out while he was walking the hall.

Not CLASSROOM doors - building doors. That's why officers were "standing around outside" while the shooting was happening - they couldn't get into Norris Hall because the building doors were chained shut from the inside.

I don't remember how the doors at Norris are, but if they're like Burruss next door, it's 2 doors side-by-side, like we have at Grundy. From the inside, you open the door by pushing on a bar that runs across the door about waist high. An 8' chain can be wrapped around the handles to lock the doors from the inside.

Chaining classroom doors would have been too time consuming and served no purpose. Chaining them before he opened fire would have greatly limited his "impact area"... afterward would have been too time consuming and not really necessary. Diff. people have said he walked into the classrooms or came back to a classroom when he heard people talking.

[Cali]

This is so scary and so sad.

Since Monday, threats have happened in 10 different states:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_us/university_bomb_threat_12;_ylt=AiAMR4ayAH5CZBkUx86 OnIqm1OFF

[thetribe]

I think the shooting at the university in Texas had around 18 victims. I could be mistaken but for some reason that is the figure that is jumping out at me.

Like Cali mentioned, I know of one this morning when a university in Texas was on lockdown because of threats and such. When the nation/schools are most vulnerable to believe this stuff is when students will start doing STUPID stuff to get out of tests/class. Pitiful.

[VHSL-helper]

A Doctor from the Montgomery Regional Hospital said "There wasn't a victim with less than 3 gunshot wounds"

X 50 victims - sounds like 150 or so bullets met flesh. So he prob.fired, what, 200 rounds, at least?

Let me continue my rant against CNN. The more I watch, the madder I get. They have video from all of these "affiliates", yet they can't seem to keep up with the facts. Was watching Nancy grace tonight and they were clueless about the 2nd gun being purchased at a local pawn shop a week or 2 ago - that came out this afternoon sometime. And a caller asked about the 1st victim being the gunman's girlfriend. To me, that was cleared up last night, when they said the person of interest that police were talking to when Norris happened was her boyfriend. Today, it starting to sound like she his latest obsession.

[alfus21]

You can read his plays/stories here...
>>LINK (http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/)

[VHSL-helper]

Sounds like most of the damage was done to students in a foreign language class (German or French).

[15thRegionCrazy]

This is what one of his classmates from last fall said....
"When I first heard about the multiple shootings at Virginia Tech yesterday, my first thought was about my friends, and my second thought was "I bet it was Seung Cho."

After reading the plays I understand why they thought it was him... his teacher had told the school admin. about him but there wasn't really much they could do... you can't force somebody to see a counselor.

[15thRegionCrazy]

In 2005 the police were called about Cho Seung-Hui after a student rejected his attempts at establishing contact with her by phone. She didn't file any charges though because she said he was just annoying. He voluntarily admitted himself into a mental health facility to be evaluated so it didn't show up on his records when he purchased the guns. (If you go voluntarily it doesn't show up on a background check, if you are taken involuntarily it will).

There is also new details about when the P22 was purchased... he had ordered it online on Feb. 9th to be delivered to the dealer where he picked it up at.

I just heard this on the news... more details should be out a little later on

[DevilsWin]

I think the shooting at the university in Texas had around 18 victims. I could be mistaken but for some reason that is the figure that is jumping out at me.

Like Cali mentioned, I know of one this morning when a university in Texas was on lockdown because of threats and such. When the nation/schools are most vulnerable to believe this stuff is when students will start doing STUPID stuff to get out of tests/class. Pitiful.
16 victims and the shooter was a former US Marine.

[thecavemaster]

I hope congress does not start blaming gun owners for this congress is the ones who took prayer out schools and let the devil in.

Prayer cannot be taken out of schools because real
prayer is prayer that takes place in a private
place, which could be a bathroom stall or inside of
a person's own head. What was ruled in violation of
church and state separation was public prayer where
a person's freedom of conscience was not considered.
Also, churches are full of public prayer, yet the
"devil" manages to split them up and cause deacons
to have affairs with members....

[DevilsWin]

Prayer cannot be taken out of schools because real
prayer is prayer that takes place in a private
place, which could be a bathroom stall or inside of
a person's own head. What was ruled in violation of
church and state separation was public prayer where
a person's freedom of conscience was not considered.
Also, churches are full of public prayer, yet the
"devil" manages to split them up and cause deacons
to have affairs with members....
Yeah the devil made them do it. LOL What happened to personal responsibility and accounting for yourself.

There is no devil under the earth with a crystal ball casting spells on the poor defensless humans. The devil is all in your mind.

I call him "Bad Judgement".

[Tom 70107]

Yeah the devil made them do it. LOL What happened to personal responsibility and accounting for yourself.

There is no devil under the earth with a crystal ball casting spells on the poor defensless humans. The devil is all in your mind.

I call him "Bad Judgement".

ABSOLEUTLY...... ALL FAMILIES ARE IN MY PRAYERS