Are You Against Coal Mining?

[RavenBoy]

Are you??

[alfus21]

I don't know why anybody would be against all forms of coal mining. I know here in Lexington a lot of people are against Mountain Top Removal but not all in general.

I'm for all coal mining until a cheaper alternative comes along which doesn't appear to be anytime soon. Alternatives are needed for the future but as for now we have to take what we can get.

[BurntTires]

Nope!!!!

[The Fan]

what do you think the economy of eastern ky revolves around ?

[-STAT-]

Keeps the lights and the TV's on.

[ComfortEagle]

Keeps the lights and the TV's on.

Keeps these computers on, lol.

[-STAT-]

Keeps these computers on, lol.


lol, yes yes cant forget about the computers.

[cig107]

yeah I don't know anyone that would disagree with it in EKY...it produces so many job's and I don't think eastern ky could survive with out it.

[PLAYBOY5]

And if anyone does disagree with it from Eastern Ky or anywhere for that matter..Then get the **** out..Just My opinion!!

[-STAT-]

And if anyone does disagree with it from Eastern Ky or anywhere for that matter..Then get the **** out..Just My opinion!!


I agree PB5. Its one of the only ways folks can make a living around these parts.

[PLAYBOY5]

Thanks STATS-. It is just alot of my family and alot of other people's family has worked hard long hours, days, nights, and years in the mines and busted there tails for all of America and the rest of the world!~

[phs1986]

My husband is a miner, my dad (and the hubby's dad) were miners, BOTH sets of my grandfathers were miners, their parents were miners... and so on and so on..... So NOPE.... I'm not against mining... Where would this part of the country be without mining?? IMO... A ghost town!!

[Redneck]

If we didn't have coal minin, you could go ahead and take KY and WV off the map.

[TidesHoss32]

yep, I agree totally Redneck. Ive recently gotten both my surface and underground cards, and am looking for an underground job..You'd be so surprised at how many people around here absolutely despise the thought of mining. Yes a lot of them say mining is out of touch, but forget that coal makes up 52% of our nations current power and 88% of our nations power reserve.If we didn't have coal minin, you could go ahead and take KY and WV off the map.

[PLAYBOY5]

Great points TH32!

[PLAYBOY5]

Would the person who voted yes please state there reasoning? PLEASE OWN UP TO YOUR THOUGHTS AND VIEWS!!!

[phs1986]

Would the person who voted yes please state there reasoning? PLEASE OWN UP TO YOUR THOUGHTS AND VIEWS!!!


LOL.... Ya know I was thinking the same thing!!! LOLOL.....I'm just curious as to why they voted yes???

[ComfortEagle]

Well it's obvious that the OP is the one who voted yes. (OP meaning original poster)

I was only the second one to vote and I voted NO, before me there was only one person who had voted, and they had voted YES. Therefore, it was the thread creator, who has now cowered since no one agrees with him.

[IISnakE]

How about we shut off the "juice" to those in Lexington, who are against it. While we're doing that... let's remove everything that has been built or bought in Lexington(pronounced Lox-ing-tahn) with Coal Dollars and see how long they last. Let's just STOP taking our COAL DOLLARS to them for car, clothes, entertainment purchases, along with schooling or sports related activities... and see how long it takes them to sing another tune! I bet all of the outlying areas adjacent to "Metropolis" would be glad to take our money and be gracious enough not to make fun of us or shut down our primary source of income while they were doing it!

[phs1986]

How about we shut off the "juice" to those in Lexington, who are against it. While we're doing that... let's remove everything that has been built or bought in Lexington(pronounced Lox-ing-tahn) with Coal Dollars and see how long they last. Let's just STOP taking our COAL DOLLARS to them for car, clothes, entertainment purchases, along with schooling or sports related activities... and see how long it takes them to sing another tune! I bet all of the outlying areas adjacent to "Metropolis" would be glad to take our money and be gracious enough not to make fun of us or shut down our primary source of income while they were doing it!



LOLOL.... I LOVE IT!!!! :Cheerlead

[IISnakE]

I knew you would....LOL!!!

[crazytaxidriver]

been doing it for 7 years.. im all for it..

[PLAYBOY5]

So TRUE and agree!

[15thRegionCrazy]

Nope

[Redneck]

yep, I agree totally Redneck. Ive recently gotten both my surface and underground cards, and am looking for an underground job..You'd be so surprised at how many people around here absolutely despise the thought of mining. Yes a lot of them say mining is out of touch, but forget that coal makes up 52% of our nations current power and 88% of our nations power reserve.

The funny thing is that's the ENTIRE NATION. Coal accounts for like 97% of KY's power and 95% of WV's.

[PLAYBOY5]

Very good points being made! What is sad is that we have to make points for some idiots!

[TidesHoss32]

thus backing up your last post about removing Kentucky and West Virginia off the map..you are exactly right though, it makes up that much of Ky's power, and imagine if this nation had to dip into the coal reserves..I bet those environmentalists would be hush hush then..The funny thing is that's the ENTIRE NATION. Coal accounts for like 97% of KY's power and 95% of WV's.

[thetribe]

Anyone against it should have to live in our shoes for a while. My dad is a miner, all of his brothers are miners, his dad was a miner, his dad was a miner, so on and so forth, my mom's dad was a miner, all of his brothers were miners, his dad was a miner, his dad was a miner, and so on and so forth yet again. Some of us here in Eastern Kentucky have it pretty bad now with our money coming in from the mining industry but without it there wouldn't be enough jobs here for a tenth of the population and even MORE people would leave the area. I won't even go into where America would be with coal mining. I can't speak for all Americans. I can speak for myself and say that I wouldn't have half of what I do without my dad mining.

[Lisa Douglas]

Coal is what greases the wheels that run the whole thing. Doctors lawyers and Indian Chiefs, all depend upon coal to some degree.

[ComfortEagle]

Has RavenBoy still not responded? That's sad. Come on RavenBoy, tell us why you don't like coal mining.

[rallo316]

i am for it everyone has stated the reasoning already bottom line is no coal no power i worked in the mines at dorton,ky 4 years and we kept Gainsville,Florida and East Lansing, Michigan going if i was still working there i believe i would cut them off for beating UK ha ha!

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

My dad always said before he died that whoever was against coal mining should freeze to death in the dark LOL!

[RavenBoy]

Wind is the new power!

[ComfortEagle]

Wind is the new power!

Lol, I'm pretty sure wind isn't "new"

[TidesHoss32]

thats funny CE, lol...:) Lol, I'm pretty sure wind isn't "new"

[cig107]

Wind is the new power!

HAHA, wind will never be able to power the country...what kind of "new" wind is it? lol

[DevilsWin]

No, I am against Mountaintop removal though.

[TidesHoss32]

you still work in the mines Rallo??i am for it everyone has stated the reasoning already bottom line is no coal no power i worked in the mines at dorton,ky 4 years and we kept Gainsville,Florida and East Lansing, Michigan going if i was still working there i believe i would cut them off for beating UK ha ha!

[Kentucky97]

How could anyone in this area be against it It puts food on our table and runs this country.

[Coach_Owens87]

How could anyone in this area be against it It puts food on our table and runs this country.

Well I can give you some reasons, MTR is destoring our land, polluting our water, and killing off all of our animal species, by 2010 60% of all native fish in ky will be gone. For the person who said if it wasn't for mining Ky and WV wouldn't be on the map, just to let you know, Tourism brings in more money in WV than mining.

Now before everyone gets all upset, I'm not against mining in general, basically all the males in my family work in the mines. And not just this generation, I had several grandfathers, great uncles and so on work in the mines. Ive lost a grandfather, and 2 cousins in mining accidents, so my family is deeply rooted in mining. I know coal allows me to type this message, but we need to find a better way to extract it. MTR only accounts for 5% of the national coal production, but that 5% is taking away everything that makes this area special, our natural beauty.

[Old School]

On June 13, 2007 Judge Chambers outlawed the construction and use of sediment ponds on mining operations, (sediment ponds have been used in mining operations for over thirty years) this is part of a lawsuit brought on by environmental groups in West Virginia. These ponds are constructed downstream of hollow fills so when water flows from a mining operation to the pond, where the solids in the water (mainly during a rain storm) are able to settle into the bottom of the pond and not enter the stream. When the sediment in the pond reaches about 50% of the ponds capacity, the pond is then cleaned out to allow for more sediment to settle into the pond.

Since both surface and underground mining operations use sediment ponds, this ruling will effect both, and if is ruling is not overturned, it could devastate the mining industry. Check out the story below.



http://www.wvgazette.com/section/News/2007061320

[RavenBoy]

Lol, I'm pretty sure wind isn't "new"Good one *edited for content*

[thetribe]

He made a better point than you did.

Not only is name calling immature, but you don't need to be cursing on the boards.

[RavenBoy]

He made a better point than you did.

Not only is name calling immature, but you don't need to be cursing on the boards.
I wasn't saying that Wind is brand new, Coal is the leading source of power right now and I was saying Wind will be the New Power, *edited for content*

[Coach_Owens87]

On June 13, 2007 Judge Chambers outlawed the construction and use of sediment ponds on mining operations, (sediment ponds have been used in mining operations for over thirty years) this is part of a lawsuit brought on by environmental groups in West Virginia. These ponds are constructed downstream of hollow fills so when water flows from a mining operation to the pond, where the solids in the water (mainly during a rain storm) are able to settle into the bottom of the pond and not enter the stream. When the sediment in the pond reaches about 50% of the ponds capacity, the pond is then cleaned out to allow for more sediment to settle into the pond.

Since both surface and underground mining operations use sediment ponds, this ruling will effect both, and if is ruling is not overturned, it could devastate the mining industry. Check out the story below.



http://www.wvgazette.com/section/News/2007061320

I really like this Judge Chambers, he doesn't back down from the rich and powerful coal companies. These slurry lakes and ponds have been breaking the rules set fourth by the clean water act for years, but no one has enforced it. The bad thing is the "clean coal" oxymoron, and the clean air act that where supposed to protect the planet but all they have done is increase the use of slurry ponds to hold the sludge from cleaning the coal.

We need to shift our attention towards cleaner, renewable energies anyway, maybe this will be a slight push to get to that point quicker.

And as far as the major blow to coal companies, they have been breaking laws and making millions for years, they're a ingenious industry, they can find a way to move on, while protecting the envioronment.

[Old School]

I really like this Judge Chambers, he doesn't back down from the rich and powerful coal companies. These slurry lakes and ponds have been breaking the rules set fourth by the clean water act for years, but no one has enforced it. The bad thing is the "clean coal" oxymoron, and the clean air act that where supposed to protect the planet but all they have done is increase the use of slurry ponds to hold the sludge from cleaning the coal.

We need to shift our attention towards cleaner, renewable energies anyway, maybe this will be a slight push to get to that point quicker.

And as far as the major blow to coal companies, they have been breaking laws and making millions for years, they're a ingenious industry, they can find a way to move on, while protecting the envioronment.

If this ruling stands it will be a major blow to both surface and underground mining, I agree that coal mining is a ingenious industry, but this could be the straw that borke the back of coal mining and if this rule stands in West Virginia it only be a short time before it is enforced everywhere. Everyone needs to keep in mind that these sediment ponds do more than anything else to protect the streams below the mining operations. If the coal industry by some chance was to come up with a alterative method envioronmentalist would still complain and try to shut down coal mining.

[TidesHoss32]

Thats scary. Thats exactly what that is. We can only hope that by some chance it gets overturned in West Virginia before that noise gets to Kentucky. Yes its an ingenious industry, but its been an industry thats allowed thousands and thousands of families to survive, mine included. If this ruling stands it will be a major blow to both surface and underground mining, I agree that coal mining is a ingenious industry, but this could be the straw that borke the back of coal mining and if this rule stands in West Virginia it only be a short time before it is enforced everywhere. Everyone needs to keep in mind that these sediment ponds do more than anything else to protect the streams below the mining operations. If the coal industry by some chance was to come up with a alterative method envioronmentalist would still complain and try to shut down coal mining.

[ComfortEagle]

I wasn't saying that Wind is brand new, Coal is the leading source of power right now and I was saying Wind will be the New Power, *edited for content*

And I was being sarcastic. Get over it. Oh, and be sure to let me know when this new wind power will take over the world, lol.

[TATE_64]

I'm all for it, That all my family has known and I drive a coal truck.... I am for all types of mining....

[DevilsWin]

If this ruling stands it will be a major blow to both surface and underground mining, I agree that coal mining is a ingenious industry, but this could be the straw that borke the back of coal mining and if this rule stands in West Virginia it only be a short time before it is enforced everywhere. Everyone needs to keep in mind that these sediment ponds do more than anything else to protect the streams below the mining operations. If the coal industry by some chance was to come up with a alterative method envioronmentalist would still complain and try to shut down coal mining.

Has everyone already forgot about the slurry spill a couple of years ago and what it did to the Big Sandy and Tug Fork? I believe it was officially the 2nd worst environmental disaster in US history. It never got the national attention it deserved because it was in Appalachia.

[NEXT]

Well I can give you some reasons, MTR is destoring our land, polluting our water, and killing off all of our animal species, by 2010 60% of all native fish in ky will be gone. For the person who said if it wasn't for mining Ky and WV wouldn't be on the map, just to let you know, Tourism brings in more money in WV than mining.

Now before everyone gets all upset, I'm not against mining in general, basically all the males in my family work in the mines. And not just this generation, I had several grandfathers, great uncles and so on work in the mines. Ive lost a grandfather, and 2 cousins in mining accidents, so my family is deeply rooted in mining. I know coal allows me to type this message, but we need to find a better way to extract it. MTR only accounts for 5% of the national coal production, but that 5% is taking away everything that makes this area special, our natural beauty.

Just to let you know coal is a little over 60% of WV's economy

[Old School]

Has everyone already forgot about the slurry spill a couple of years ago and what it did to the Big Sandy and Tug Fork? I believe it was officially the 2nd worst environmental disaster in US history. It never got the national attention it deserved because it was in Appalachia.

Sediment ponds and Slurry ponds are two completely different structures, first a sediment pond controls surface water (during a rain/snow event) and varies in size anywhere from one-tenth of acre to generally not more than one-third of a acre, the storage capacity of each sediment pond is designed for the water shed that it will control.

A Slurry pond is a much larger structure that is designed to hold coal fines. The size of Slurry Impoundments vary and are usually based on topography and the companies estimated reserve area. The slurry spill you referred to in Martin County was caused by inaccurate underground mine mapping, the roof of the un-mapped portion of the underground mine below the impoundment collapsed creating a void in the bottom of the slurry impoundment and letting the water to drain into the underground mine and out of the mine portals. Federal law now requires that underground mines maintain a certain distance from impoundments or impoundments cannot be built within a certain distance of underground mine works.

As far as the Martin County spill not getting national attention, I was in Florida the day the of the spill and I heard about it on the radio. Local and network news programs covered this for a long time.

[Coach_Owens87]

Sediment ponds and Slurry ponds are two completely different structures, first a sediment pond controls surface water (during a rain/snow event) and varies in size anywhere from one-tenth of acre to generally not more than one-third of a acre, the storage capacity of each sediment pond is designed for the water shed that it will control.

A Slurry pond is a much larger structure that is designed to hold coal fines. The size of Slurry Impoundments vary and are usually based on topography and the companies estimated reserve area. The slurry spill you referred to in Martin County was caused by inaccurate underground mine mapping, the roof of the un-mapped portion of the underground mine below the impoundment collapsed creating a void in the bottom of the slurry impoundment and letting the water to drain into the underground mine and out of the mine portals. Federal law now requires that underground mines maintain a certain distance from impoundments or impoundments cannot be built within a certain distance of underground mine works.

As far as the Martin County spill not getting national attention, I was in Florida the day the of the spill and I heard about it on the radio. Local and network news programs covered this for a long time.

I'm so happy that finally someone in standing up against these coal companies and their illegal practices. The people in the coal industry try to throw out false "facts" and say they are helping the people of this region. It's just not true, the environmental damage caused by MTR is immeasurable, we're just now starting to see some major effects of old abandoned undergound mines as they leak out coal waste. This is contaminating our water and killing off native fish species at an alarming rate. Imagine what this region will be like when the effects of MTR really start to show.
As far as the coverage of the martin county incident, it did get coverage , but not the mass national coverage that would be expected from such a huge environmental disaster. The spill put 300 million gallons of coal waste, which included water, coal, and the chemicals used to clean it for sell into the market, into the big sandy river. The Exxon-Valdez spill, in which 10 million gallons of oil was spilled, got way more national coverage. Just google it, the Exxon spill gives 580,000 hits, The martin county spill, which was 30 times larger, barely musters 50,000 hits. So to say the event was covered is a joke, it was just a small story mentioned between the "real" headlines.

[TidesHoss32]

I have got the perfect solution. Ive read and read everything you post and your completely biased view on coalmining. Why not pull every single miner from underground, away from the strip mines, and pay each of them $58,000 a year to clean the streams, feed the animals, and plant some friggin trees on those mountain tops that every one of you environmentalists cry about. Yes these jobs arent the most friendly for our environment, but you all will never mention the fact that hundreds of thousands of men have fed their familes (which will never sink in to you people). And those appalshop idiots, the ones that hate our law, government, our president, who cry and complain that our government cant do anything right (ring a bell?), with those pathetic "I went to the mountaintop..and it wasnt there" bumper stickers on thier cars, can have your **** mountaintops. So go ahead, shut it all down. And after about two months, when your power bill for your 800 square foot house is $3900 a month, dont go screaming that "you all need to do something! This is ridiculous!".. And dont give anybody your "tourism brings in more money than mining" garbage either. Tourism dont keep the lights on, pal. Tourism dont keep your kids cool in 96 degree weather. Yeah, tourism might just bring in more money, but stop mining and see how far tourism will carry your sorry argument. You say coal has been a huge part of your family, and your upbringing. Well, while your biting the hand thats fed you, others, like myself are appreciative of the fact that coal has fed our families, including mine. I'm so happy that finally someone in standing up against these coal companies and their illegal practices. The people in the coal industry try to throw out false "facts" and say they are helping the people of this region. It's just not true, the environmental damage caused by MTR is immeasurable, we're just now starting to see some major effects of old abandoned undergound mines as they leak out coal waste. This is contaminating our water and killing off native fish species at an alarming rate. Imagine what this region will be like when the effects of MTR really start to show.
As far as the coverage of the martin county incident, it did get coverage , but not the mass national coverage that would be expected from such a huge environmental disaster. The spill put 300 million gallons of coal waste, which included water, coal, and the chemicals used to clean it for sell into the market, into the big sandy river. The Exxon-Valdez spill, in which 10 million gallons of oil was spilled, got way more national coverage. Just google it, the Exxon spill gives 580,000 hits, The martin county spill, which was 30 times larger, barely musters 50,000 hits. So to say the event was covered is a joke, it was just a small story mentioned between the "real" headlines.

[Coach_Owens87]

I have got the perfect solution. Ive read and read everything you post and your completely biased view on coalmining. Why not pull every single miner from underground, away from the strip mines, and pay each of them $58,000 a year to clean the streams, feed the animals, and plant some friggin trees on those mountain tops that every one of you environmentalists cry about. Yes these jobs arent the most friendly for our environment, but you all will never mention the fact that hundreds of thousands of men have fed their familes (which will never sink in to you people). And those appalshop idiots, the ones that hate our law, government, our president, who cry and complain that our government cant do anything right (ring a bell?), with those pathetic "I went to the mountaintop..and it wasnt there" bumper stickers on thier cars, can have your **** mountaintops. So go ahead, shut it all down. And after about two months, when your power bill for your 800 square foot house is $3900 a month, dont go screaming that "you all need to do something! This is ridiculous!".. And dont give anybody your "tourism brings in more money than mining" garbage either. Tourism dont keep the lights on, pal. Tourism dont keep your kids cool in 96 degree weather. Yeah, tourism might just bring in more money, but stop mining and see how far tourism will carry your sorry argument. You say coal has been a huge part of your family, and your upbringing. Well, while your biting the hand thats fed you, others, like myself are appreciative of the fact that coal has fed our families, including mine.

Why are you calling me biased for stating my opinion, when you're being very biased yourself. You gave your fair share of "bumper sticker" slogans. "Coal keeps the lights on" "Coal feeds my family", come on, don't bash for doing something and then do it yourself. And why get so angry, I never said we should take all jobs away from miners, Strip mining has taken more jobs from miners than any environmental group has.
All your statement showed is that your biased, not once did you try to present facts, all you gave where overused prejudice statements like "environmentalist hate the government, and the law, and our president." I will admit that I strongly dislike our president, but I dislike him for more reasons than his environmental views. And I really want you to explain to me how I hate our laws, when I'm trying to get coal mining companies to obey them?

Yes Coal gives men in this area jobs, but not as many as you claim, on average there is only 123 miners per county in eastern Kentucky, thats not a significant number.

Your statement that "tourism doesn't keep the lights on" is just funny, you don't have anything knowledgeable to say, so you just give me an overused statement. I'm not saying we should stop all mining tomorrow, we just need to control the outrageous destruction caused by MTR. Coal is not the only energy source, and it's not going to last forever, we need to prepare for the future, there are other energy sources. (we can never run out of energy, its impossible, but coal will run out.) Until we can have other energy sources available, coal is the best option, but I believe we can mine the coal in a more environmentally friendly way. Remember we all share the same planet.

It's people like you who refuse to see the truth. I oppose strip mining, not miners. I oppose power greedy energy companies, not hard working Appalachian people. I don't believe that it's right for us to sit around and watch our home be destroyed.
Eastern Kentucky is among the poorest regions in the country, but listening to you, someone would never know that. I know you wont believe it , but mining is not our savior.The Appalachian region is the most ecologically diverse region in North America, all I wont to do is to protect it. I want to save this area for future generations to enjoy, I want to save our culture, I want to save everything that makes this area special. It's just sad that people like you claim to love this region, but you wont do anything to stop companies from taking away everything that makes it so special.

I am not biting the hand that feeds me, I'm trying to extend a hand to the future generations.

[TidesHoss32]

ok, an average of 123 miners per county in Eastern Kentucky. Take those jobs away from them, and Eastern Kentucky has NOTHING to fall back on. Yes Im biased. Im all for mining. And yes, you are EXACTLY right, that Eastern Kentucky is one of the poorest regions in the entire country, so why bash one of the very few jobs where someone can make a decent living at? You can pull this "you dont have any facts, you arent nearly as knowledgable as me" **** all you want, but its this crazy world you all live in that allows you to believe that theres going to be ANYTHING at all here IF you people get your way. I dont use facts, I use common sense. No 123 per county ISNT a significant number, but you take half those away, and thats over 60 starving familes. But hey, your friggin trees will be safe. Ill bet you'll be tickled pink going to bed knowing that. Yeah, stick it to those "horrible coal industries. Those law breaking greedy *******s.............that feeds familes". OK, point of it all is this..You say we need to prepare for the future. How? You say there are alternative energy sources, and that we'll never run out of energy, which is true. NOW, tell me, until those sources are prevalent in this area, what should they do without mining? How will they get the money to use those alternative energy sources around this area? And what alternative energy sources would work not only around here, but for the entire country? Because coal makes up 52% of our nations power. Of which Im sure your well aware. You say theres no such thing as clean coal, that its an oxymoron. You say you love those that stand up to the coal operators. Yet you even admit that coal is our best option. What the **** do you want them to do? You want them to mine cleaner? Ill bet you want 200mph sports cars to get 60 miles per gallon to dont you? Yeah, we all oppose greedy power companies, who doesnt? You say that I may not realize it but coal is not our savior, but right now, IT IS. Until our "smarter generation" comes up with ways that our region can make a decent living, IT IS the only hope for many families to make ends meet. And explain to me how you'd mine coal cleaner? You say we are a smarter generation, which I still believe is crap, by the way. Our generation is a wasteful generation. Our generation is lazy and selfish. And I do love this area, but like I said, when Im getting paid $58,000 a year to plant trees, stock streams, and ***** about coal companies, Ill stop mining. Until then, mining IS my savior. As its been for our family for over 100 years. And Im not angry. Im realistic. Why are you calling me biased for stating my opinion, when you're being very biased yourself. You gave your fair share of "bumper sticker" slogans. "Coal keeps the lights on" "Coal feeds my family", come on, don't bash for doing something and then do it yourself. And why get so angry, I never said we should take all jobs away from miners, Strip mining has taken more jobs from miners than any environmental group has.
All your statement showed is that your biased, not once did you try to present facts, all you gave where overused prejudice statements like "environmentalist hate the government, and the law, and our president." I will admit that I strongly dislike our president, but I dislike him for more reasons than his environmental views. And I really want you to explain to me how I hate our laws, when I'm trying to get coal mining companies to obey them?

Yes Coal gives men in this area jobs, but not as many as you claim, on average there is only 123 miners per county in eastern Kentucky, thats not a significant number.

Your statement that "tourism doesn't keep the lights on" is just funny, you don't have anything knowledgeable to say, so you just give me an overused statement. I'm not saying we should stop all mining tomorrow, we just need to control the outrageous destruction caused by MTR. Coal is not the only energy source, and it's not going to last forever, we need to prepare for the future, there are other energy sources. (we can never run out of energy, its impossible, but coal will run out.) Until we can have other energy sources available, coal is the best option, but I believe we can mine the coal in a more environmentally friendly way. Remember we all share the same planet.

It's people like you who refuse to see the truth. I oppose strip mining, not miners. I oppose power greedy energy companies, not hard working Appalachian people. I don't believe that it's right for us to sit around and watch our home be destroyed.
Eastern Kentucky is among the poorest regions in the country, but listening to you, someone would never know that. I know you wont believe it , but mining is not our savior.The Appalachian region is the most ecologically diverse region in North America, all I wont to do is to protect it. I want to save this area for future generations to enjoy, I want to save our culture, I want to save everything that makes this area special. It's just sad that people like you claim to love this region, but you wont do anything to stop companies from taking away everything that makes it so special.

I am not biting the hand that feeds me, I'm trying to extend a hand to the future generations.

[PLAYBOY5]

Very Well Put TH32! I don't think there is anything else that I could have agreed with anymore than what you wrote! It is the way it is right now. No other options available. Talk about unemployment and poverty.....IMAGINE IF WE DIDN'T HAVE COAL MINING IN EASTERN KENTUCKY! But hey, as long as the tree count is up, that means there will be pieces of paper for my children and there children and there children! Give me one tree to block the sun from my house and i will be happy! Don't really see a need for them any other way! Slap the mountains down and get us some businesses in here!

[Old School]

OK, point of it all is this..You say we need to prepare for the future. How? You say there are alternative energy sources, and that we'll never run out of energy, which is true. NOW, tell me, until those sources are prevalent in this area, what should they do without mining? How will they get the money to use those alternative energy sources around this area? And what alternative energy sources would work not only around here, but for the entire country? Because coal makes up 52% of our nations power. Of which Im sure your well aware. You say theres no such thing as clean coal, that its an oxymoron. You say you love those that stand up to the coal operators. Yet you even admit that coal is our best option. What the **** do you want them to do? You want them to mine cleaner? Ill bet you want 200mph sports cars to get 60 miles per gallon to dont you? Yeah, we all oppose greedy power companies, who doesnt? You say that I may not realize it but coal is not our savior, but right now, IT IS. Until our "smarter generation" comes up with ways that our region can make a decent living, IT IS the only hope for many families to make ends meet. And explain to me how you'd mine coal cleaner? You say we are a smarter generation, which I still believe is crap, by the way. Our generation is a wasteful generation. Our generation is lazy and selfish. And I do love this area, but like I said, when Im getting paid $58,000 a year to plant trees, stock streams, and ***** about coal companies, Ill stop mining. Until then, mining IS my savior. As its been for our family for over 100 years. And Im not angry. Im realistic.


TidesHoss32, that's one point I've been trying to get across, why are they trying to shut down coal mining when there is no alternative energy scource ready to replace coal. I know most of the environmentalist will say that they are only against surface mining, but that is simply not true, they want to shut down the mining industry altogether, just look at all the current court cases against coal mining today. These pending cases effect both underground and surface mines. If I were a environmentalist I think it would be logical to develop a alterntive engery that could replace the electricity produced by coal first, then try to shut down the coal industry. That's just my opinion, I guess that's why they won't play with any of the environmental groups

[Coach_Owens87]

ok, an average of 123 miners per county in Eastern Kentucky. Take those jobs away from them, and Eastern Kentucky has NOTHING to fall back on. Yes Im biased. Im all for mining. And yes, you are EXACTLY right, that Eastern Kentucky is one of the poorest regions in the entire country, so why bash one of the very few jobs where someone can make a decent living at? You can pull this "you dont have any facts, you arent nearly as knowledgable as me" **** all you want, but its this crazy world you all live in that allows you to believe that theres going to be ANYTHING at all here IF you people get your way. I dont use facts, I use common sense. No 123 per county ISNT a significant number, but you take half those away, and thats over 60 starving familes. But hey, your friggin trees will be safe. Ill bet you'll be tickled pink going to bed knowing that. Yeah, stick it to those "horrible coal industries. Those law breaking greedy *******s.............that feeds familes". OK, point of it all is this..You say we need to prepare for the future. How? You say there are alternative energy sources, and that we'll never run out of energy, which is true. NOW, tell me, until those sources are prevalent in this area, what should they do without mining? How will they get the money to use those alternative energy sources around this area? And what alternative energy sources would work not only around here, but for the entire country? Because coal makes up 52% of our nations power. Of which Im sure your well aware. You say theres no such thing as clean coal, that its an oxymoron. You say you love those that stand up to the coal operators. Yet you even admit that coal is our best option. What the **** do you want them to do? You want them to mine cleaner? Ill bet you want 200mph sports cars to get 60 miles per gallon to dont you? Yeah, we all oppose greedy power companies, who doesnt? You say that I may not realize it but coal is not our savior, but right now, IT IS. Until our "smarter generation" comes up with ways that our region can make a decent living, IT IS the only hope for many families to make ends meet. And explain to me how you'd mine coal cleaner? You say we are a smarter generation, which I still believe is crap, by the way. Our generation is a wasteful generation. Our generation is lazy and selfish. And I do love this area, but like I said, when Im getting paid $58,000 a year to plant trees, stock streams, and ***** about coal companies, Ill stop mining. Until then, mining IS my savior. As its been for our family for over 100 years. And Im not angry. Im realistic.

Tidehoss, you still didn't prove anything beyond the point that you are ANGRY and baised. All you are thinking of is the NOW, and yourself. I totally agree with a lot of what you said. Yes this generation is greedy, wasteful, and lazy, which is big reason for why we are in such an energy mess at the moment. To answer your idiotic question " would I want a sports car that went 200 mph and and got 60 MPG", I sure as **** would, as long as it ran on "green" fuel. lol, youre actually funny, you spent so much of your time to write that long reply, and you told me absoultely nothing. You just keep repeating yourself. All you MTR supporters keep saying the same thing, you all use the same old worn out slogans.
All you have said this whole time is "take coal away and we have nothing". Where did I ever say to take coal away, all I want is to stop the destruction of Appalachia until a better source of energy can be ready for mass consumption. You're whole argument lies on the theory that without coal we have nothing, I want to know why people think that? Are we so dumb and dependent, that we cant find nothing else to do besides mine? Or do people believe that coal is our "savior" because we were feared into thinking that? People of this region are repeatedly told we have nothing without coal. Thats totally absurd. We have the ability to build an economy without coal, tourism could be a start, but no one wants to see flat mountains.

You're whole argument is actually absurd, yes I know that your job feeds your family, so what, every person that has a job relies on that to feed their family.
I'm sure you are a hard working man, just like the dozens of family members I have that work in the mines. But things are different now, it takes a handful of men to do the job that hundreds used to do. Coal is not our savior right now, were one of the poorest regions in the country, our unemployment rate has been the same for the last 30 years, and the future doesn't look any brighter, how is that a savior?


Now to the points you made, the big reason other energy sources aren't being used, or being further researched in this area is because of the greedy oil and coal companies. Too much money is being made to get away from mining. It's that simple. Now you agree that Appalachia is one of the poorest regions in the country, and you know exactly why that is, It's mining. There aren't any other job opportunites here because we don't have the trained workers to do them, most people who get an education move away from here to get jobs, including me. The average age of a coal miner is 55, which shows that young people arent working in the mines, and since you claim mining is our "savior" what happens when all those workers retire, there wont be anyone to work in the mines. We need to get better jobs in this area, which wont happen until MTR practices are controlled.

I'm currently in pre-med, I would love to come back to this area and work, and with the way mining is going I would never be out of work, our streams and air are polluted, so I would have a constant stream of sick patients. Just to let you know 6 counties in eastern Ky rank in the top ten nationally in lung cancer, children here are 50% more likely to get asthma, and mothers are more likely to have birth defects, and why is all of this happening, it's because these "great" coal companies are polluting Appalachia. I ask a lot of people to do this, and I would guess that very few do, but I will ask again, go look at google earth and view the destruction.

The point im trying to make is that MTR needs to be controlled and stopped, yes as of right now we need the coal, but there has got to be a better way, MTR takes away jobs, and destroys our environment, and is rapidly destroying our culture. You admitted that you dont use facts, and that you think from the "gut, which shows that you don't know what you're talking about, all you're doing is trying to protect your job, which I completely understand. I know that a lot of people here wont listen to me, a lot of people will write me off as some crazy "tree hugger", which is fine with me. There is a group that sides with me, and it's a rapidly growing group of people just like you, people who want better for this region. this earth is god given, and all im trying to do is protect it and it's inhabitants.

Now I didn't put a lot of facts into this argument, but I do know what I'm talking about, anytime you want to debate over the practice of MTR just ask. The bad totally outweighs the good in the case of MTR, I can give you thousands of incidents, and stats on just how MTR is destroying this region. MTR is accountably for floods, mudslides, contaminated water, and many other things. The property value of a home near a mine site drops on average by 90%, most people here have very little, and their home is their only possession, imagine how they feel when the lose all the have. Here is one you can probably understand, and it should hit home, Mining jobs have decreased by over 50% since 1970, thats when MTR really started. Is that the great job maker coal claims to be?

[Old School]

We have the ability to build an economy without coal, tourism could be a start, but no one wants to see flat mountains.

But things are different now, it takes a handful of men to do the job that hundreds used to do. Coal is not our savior right now, were one of the poorest regions in the country, our unemployment rate has been the same for the last 30 years, and the future doesn't look any brighter, how is that a savior?


Now to the points you made, the big reason other energy sources aren't being used, or being further researched in this area is because of the greedy oil and coal companies. Too much money is being made to get away from mining. It's that simple. Now you agree that Appalachia is one of the poorest regions in the country, and you know exactly why that is, It's mining. There aren't any other job opportunites here because we don't have the trained workers to do them, most people who get an education move away from here to get jobs, including me. The average age of a coal miner is 55, which shows that young people arent working in the mines, and since you claim mining is our "savior" what happens when all those workers retire, there wont be anyone to work in the mines. We need to get better jobs in this area, which wont happen until MTR practices are controlled.

Just to let you know 6 counties in eastern Ky rank in the top ten nationally in lung cancer, children here are 50% more likely to get asthma, and mothers are more likely to have birth defects, and why is all of this happening, it's because these "great" coal companies are polluting Appalachia. I ask a lot of people to do this, and I would guess that very few do, but I will ask again, go look at google earth and view the destruction.

The point im trying to make is that MTR needs to be controlled and stopped, yes as of right now we need the coal, but there has got to be a better way, MTR takes away jobs, and destroys our environment, and is rapidly destroying our culture.

There is a group that sides with me, and it's a rapidly growing group of people just like you, people who want better for this region. this earth is god given, and all im trying to do is protect it and it's inhabitants.

MTR is destroying this region. MTR is accountably for floods, mudslides, contaminated water, and many other things. The property value of a home near a mine site drops on average by 90%, most people here have very little, and their home is their only possession, imagine how they feel when the lose all the have. Here is one you can probably understand, and it should hit home, Mining jobs have decreased by over 50% since 1970, thats when MTR really started. Is that the great job maker coal claims to be?

CO87: You say we have the ability to build a economy without coal. If this can be done then why hasn't this been started before now.

CO87: No one wants to see flat mountains. As we discussed in another thread, only 6% of the land in Eastern Ky is suitable for surface mining.

CO87: It only takes a handful of men to do the job that hundreds used to do. Give me a industry that employees as many people today that it employeed 30 to 50 years ago. The number of employees at auto manufactures have dropped, due to new technology, Construction companies are using less people and building more. Technology has changed every profession, and mining is no different, miners are able to mine more coal with less people just as the auto industry is able to build more cars with fewer people.


CO87: Lung Cancer, birth defects and asthma due to coal mining. I guess Eastern Kentucky having the highest amount of smokers doesn't affect lung cancer? Could so many women smoking, drinking or taking drugs have anything to do with birth defects?

CO87: MTR needs to be controlled or stopped. Which do you want controlled or stopped, if you want it controlled then you don't want it stopped. You say you against MTR are you ok with Contour Surface Mining?

CO87: MTR takes away jobs. I've heard this comment so many times, and it's completely false 80% of Surface mining operations mine coal that cannot be mined by underground methods. Most of these coal seams are not economical to mine underground, due to low recovery rates, geological conditions etc.

CO87: This Earth is God given. Your right God gave us this Earth, he also gave us the coal, oil, limestone, gas, trees and everything else on it to use.

CO87: Property Value of a home drops 90% near mine sites. I found a article where a reporter found just the opposite, property values were higher! The best thing would be to check with your PVA.

[PLAYBOY5]

OLD SCHOOL.....****, talk about putting someone in there place. I think you just did that in ways to back it up! BTW, to most of those people trying to save a tree or whatever in the world that our government funds for no apparent reason for useless plays, and who knows what else...WOODSTOCK IS OVER! IT IS TIME TO LEAVE NEW YORK, TURN THE BRIGHT COLORS OFF, QUIT DANCING TO A TOTING FLUTE PLAYER AND COME BACK TO THE REAL WORLD! All you talk about is polluting the air and everything else, but I guarantee you don't care to jump in that car and crank the AC up do ya! Let me guess, I bet you have a hybrid. I will guarantee that is what I will read in response!

[Coach_Owens87]

CO87: You say we have the ability to build a economy without coal. If this can be done then why hasn't this been started before now.

CO87: No one wants to see flat mountains. As we discussed in another thread, only 6% of the land in Eastern Ky is suitable for surface mining.

CO87: It only takes a handful of men to do the job that hundreds used to do. Give me a industry that employees as many people today that it employeed 30 to 50 years ago. The number of employees at auto manufactures have dropped, due to new technology, Construction companies are using less people and building more. Technology has changed every profession, and mining is no different, miners are able to mine more coal with less people just as the auto industry is able to build more cars with fewer people.


CO87: Lung Cancer, birth defects and asthma due to coal mining. I guess Eastern Kentucky having the highest amount of smokers doesn't affect lung cancer? Could so many women smoking, drinking or taking drugs have anything to do with birth defects?

CO87: MTR needs to be controlled or stopped. Which do you want controlled or stopped, if you want it controlled then you don't want it stopped. You say you against MTR are you ok with Contour Surface Mining?

CO87: MTR takes away jobs. I've heard this comment so many times, and it's completely false 80% of Surface mining operations mine coal that cannot be mined by underground methods. Most of these coal seams are not economical to mine underground, due to low recovery rates, geological conditions etc.

CO87: This Earth is God given. Your right God gave us this Earth, he also gave us the coal, oil, limestone, gas, trees and everything else on it to use.

CO87: Property Value of a home drops 90% near mine sites. I found a article where a reporter found just the opposite, property values were higher! The best thing would be to check with your PVA.

Only 6% is suitable for mining Since no industry keeps up with the total amount of land mined, that statement cannot be backed up. The latest estimate of land to be mined is 1.4 million acres by 2010, I dont know the exact land mass of eastern ky, but I would guess thats more than 6%

Less people mining Yes you are correct that as technology increases the amount of people needed to do a job decreases. Which has nothing to do with my argument, if anything you proved it. Mining jobs have decreased. Thats all I was trying to say, nothing more.

Contour surface mining Since contour mining is rarely used, I don't think it really plays an important role in this discussion. I know contour mining was used a lot in the 70's and is still being used somewhat in Tennessee. The reclamation done on contour sites is no better than what is used in MTR, the high walls cannot be filled in so that just remain there. Contour mining is not as bad on the environment as MTR, but I believe we should step away from fossil fuels.

Home values A lot of homes that are near MTR sites suffer tremendous damages during blasting. A lot of the residents don't have the money to repair their homes, which causes a tremendous decline in home value. That coupled with the dangers of mudslides, and flooding causes the majority of homes to drop in value. The only way I see an increase would be in land sold on top of the strip mine, and that would be because before mining the land wasn't suitable to build on. But 90% of mined land is not used, so that argument doesn't hold up.

Health Yes all the things you mentioned does have an impact on the health issues. Here is the point I was trying to make, the water in eastern Ky is so full of mercury, lead, ammonium and other chemicals that eating fish, or drinking water from most water sources increases the chance of birth defects by nearly 50%. Children in Eastern KY are 50% more likely to have asthma, if smoking was the only issue, states such as New York, North Carolina, and South Carolina, all with high smoker percentages should have comparable rates, they don't.

God given earth We could argue about this forever, it's all in how one takes the word of god,

[TidesHoss32]

Your right...It was an idiotic question. But you environmentalists insist on us listening to your idiotic rhetoric about destroying these mountains. And quit blaming all of peoples health problems on coal mining. I guess you forgot to point out that this place (the Appalachian region) is #1 in the ENTIRE NATION in drug abuse. Mix that in with inbreeding, high rate of smoking, among many other self-imposed hazards and VIOLA! There you have it, an instant answer to WHY Appalachia has health problems. Your in pre-med, and I guess that makes you smarter than me in a sense. But you people want to shut mining down (no matter what you say) before we have those alternative methods for energy. You want repeating? You CONSTANTLY say "theres got to be a better way". Well no kidding! Why arent your people on it? Chop Chop..And you want absurd? Tourism will bring in enough money to run those alternative methods? :lmao: ...No offense, but that is the most hysterical thing I have read in my year and a half on BGR. I live in Letcher County, but how will tourism bring in that kind of money, when Jenkins has one restaurant, Whitesburg has a handful, Knott County has what? A handful? What will these tourists do around here? What DO they do here? Did I forget to mention that these tourists have about 8 hotel choices in four or five counties? Theres only so many mountains you can look at, and for only so long. Go ahead and tell me Im repeating myself, but my repeats make a helluva lot more sense than yours. You name the same old facts every single time you post anything. And so do I. You say that I dont know what Im talking about, that I speak from my "gut". Pal, let me give you something to chew on. I am trying to protect my job. I have been completely blessed because I have been given a job. And if that means that I have to go head to head with some pre-med student trying to take my job (which you are), then by God, so be it. You say I told you nothing, because you refuse to believe that the area that you REALLY LIVE IN, is a drug-infested, poor, crime-ridden area of lazy welfare cases that refuse to work, and destroys any hope of anything OTHER than mining to open doors for our future. That, my friend, is the REAL Appalachia. Call me whatever you like, but NOBODY can deny that. Tidehoss, you still didn't prove anything beyond the point that you are ANGRY and baised. All you are thinking of is the NOW, and yourself. I totally agree with a lot of what you said. Yes this generation is greedy, wasteful, and lazy, which is big reason for why we are in such an energy mess at the moment. To answer your idiotic question " would I want a sports car that went 200 mph and and got 60 MPG", I sure as **** would, as long as it ran on "green" fuel. lol, youre actually funny, you spent so much of your time to write that long reply, and you told me absoultely nothing. You just keep repeating yourself. All you MTR supporters keep saying the same thing, you all use the same old worn out slogans.
All you have said this whole time is "take coal away and we have nothing". Where did I ever say to take coal away, all I want is to stop the destruction of Appalachia until a better source of energy can be ready for mass consumption. You're whole argument lies on the theory that without coal we have nothing, I want to know why people think that? Are we so dumb and dependent, that we cant find nothing else to do besides mine? Or do people believe that coal is our "savior" because we were feared into thinking that? People of this region are repeatedly told we have nothing without coal. Thats totally absurd. We have the ability to build an economy without coal, tourism could be a start, but no one wants to see flat mountains.

You're whole argument is actually absurd, yes I know that your job feeds your family, so what, every person that has a job relies on that to feed their family.
I'm sure you are a hard working man, just like the dozens of family members I have that work in the mines. But things are different now, it takes a handful of men to do the job that hundreds used to do. Coal is not our savior right now, were one of the poorest regions in the country, our unemployment rate has been the same for the last 30 years, and the future doesn't look any brighter, how is that a savior?


Now to the points you made, the big reason other energy sources aren't being used, or being further researched in this area is because of the greedy oil and coal companies. Too much money is being made to get away from mining. It's that simple. Now you agree that Appalachia is one of the poorest regions in the country, and you know exactly why that is, It's mining. There aren't any other job opportunites here because we don't have the trained workers to do them, most people who get an education move away from here to get jobs, including me. The average age of a coal miner is 55, which shows that young people arent working in the mines, and since you claim mining is our "savior" what happens when all those workers retire, there wont be anyone to work in the mines. We need to get better jobs in this area, which wont happen until MTR practices are controlled.

I'm currently in pre-med, I would love to come back to this area and work, and with the way mining is going I would never be out of work, our streams and air are polluted, so I would have a constant stream of sick patients. Just to let you know 6 counties in eastern Ky rank in the top ten nationally in lung cancer, children here are 50% more likely to get asthma, and mothers are more likely to have birth defects, and why is all of this happening, it's because these "great" coal companies are polluting Appalachia. I ask a lot of people to do this, and I would guess that very few do, but I will ask again, go look at google earth and view the destruction.

The point im trying to make is that MTR needs to be controlled and stopped, yes as of right now we need the coal, but there has got to be a better way, MTR takes away jobs, and destroys our environment, and is rapidly destroying our culture. You admitted that you dont use facts, and that you think from the "gut, which shows that you don't know what you're talking about, all you're doing is trying to protect your job, which I completely understand. I know that a lot of people here wont listen to me, a lot of people will write me off as some crazy "tree hugger", which is fine with me. There is a group that sides with me, and it's a rapidly growing group of people just like you, people who want better for this region. this earth is god given, and all im trying to do is protect it and it's inhabitants.

Now I didn't put a lot of facts into this argument, but I do know what I'm talking about, anytime you want to debate over the practice of MTR just ask. The bad totally outweighs the good in the case of MTR, I can give you thousands of incidents, and stats on just how MTR is destroying this region. MTR is accountably for floods, mudslides, contaminated water, and many other things. The property value of a home near a mine site drops on average by 90%, most people here have very little, and their home is their only possession, imagine how they feel when the lose all the have. Here is one you can probably understand, and it should hit home, Mining jobs have decreased by over 50% since 1970, thats when MTR really started. Is that the great job maker coal claims to be?

[Old School]

Only 6% is suitable for mining Since no industry keeps up with the total amount of land mined, that statement cannot be backed up. The latest estimate of land to be mined is 1.4 million acres by 2010, I dont know the exact land mass of eastern ky, but I would guess thats more than 6%

Less people mining Yes you are correct that as technology increases the amount of people needed to do a job decreases. Which has nothing to do with my argument, if anything you proved it. Mining jobs have decreased. Thats all I was trying to say, nothing more.

Contour surface mining Since contour mining is rarely used, I don't think it really plays an important role in this discussion. I know contour mining was used a lot in the 70's and is still being used somewhat in Tennessee. The reclamation done on contour sites is no better than what is used in MTR, the high walls cannot be filled in so that just remain there. Contour mining is not as bad on the environment as MTR, but I believe we should step away from fossil fuels.

Home values A lot of homes that are near MTR sites suffer tremendous damages during blasting. A lot of the residents don't have the money to repair their homes, which causes a tremendous decline in home value. That coupled with the dangers of mudslides, and flooding causes the majority of homes to drop in value. The only way I see an increase would be in land sold on top of the strip mine, and that would be because before mining the land wasn't suitable to build on. But 90% of mined land is not used, so that argument doesn't hold up.

Health Yes all the things you mentioned does have an impact on the health issues. Here is the point I was trying to make, the water in eastern Ky is so full of mercury, lead, ammonium and other chemicals that eating fish, or drinking water from most water sources increases the chance of birth defects by nearly 50%. Children in Eastern KY are 50% more likely to have asthma, if smoking was the only issue, states such as New York, North Carolina, and South Carolina, all with high smoker percentages should have comparable rates, they don't.

God given earth We could argue about this forever, it's all in how one takes the word of god,


CO87: Since no industry keeps up with total land being mined. You may want to contact the Office of Surface Mining and Reclamation, I'm sure they should have that number somewhere. Everyone has to keep in mind that not every mountain top or ridgeline has mineable coal reserves. I've seen several instances where there would be 5 foot of coal one ridge and less than a foot on the next ridge over. Coal seams are very sporadic especially around the top of the mountains.

CO87: Less People Mining ????

CO87: Contour Surface Mining rarely used today and doesn't play an important role in this discussion. Several companies mine by the Contour method, really the majority of companies that use MTR are the larger ones like Massey, Arch etc., the company that I work for has 5 surface mines all of them use the Contour mining method.

CO87: highwalls can not be filled in and just remain there. You got to be kidding me, Where did you come up with this information, FYI Federal Law passed in 1977 requires highwalls to be reclaimed, if you see any old highwalls along the hillsides then it had to be mined before 1977 or someone forfeited their bond if it was mined after 1977.

CO87: Home Values First if there is anyone out there that lives within a 3/4 mile radius of a surface mine they should have a Pre Blast survey on their house before mining starts or as soon as possible. Coal companies will pay a independent contractor that is licensed to preform a pre blast survey to come to your home, during this survey they will examine the interior for any defects (cracks, water leaks, doors that don't shut well, etc.) pictures or video's will be shoud be taken. The outside of the house will be examined they should pay special attention to the foundation and roof. I would strongly recommend this to anyone living near a mining operation where there is blasting, this can help the home owner prove the damage has been done since blasting started or it can prove the damage was already there prior to blasting. The ATF requires that companies record the amount of explosives and what is used in each shot, the certified blaster will either shoot by scaled distances (houses or building are located on a map with the permitted area) the blaster will use a GPS unit for his location and a distance is then determined to the nearest house or protected structure, or a box is set up at the nearest house to measure the ground vibrations this reading is recorded in the box. If a person calls in a blasting complaint to the state office, all they have to do is to either check the box or the blasting logs and if the company is out of compliance they will be liable for damages.

CO87: 90% of mined land is not used I have no idea where you came up with that number? Must be from a environmental web site.

The waters in Eastern Kentucky and Southern West Virginia are polluted, they are not as bad as they once were, but I think the biggest problem with the streams is the fact that there are still to many sewer lines that run straight into them. Just the other day a man who owned a septic cleaning service was caught dumping raw sewage into the Big Sandy River a few miles above the water plant intake, and he had been doing this for months.
Am I understanding you to say that mining is to blame of all of the chemicals in the streams and rivers?

[PLAYBOY5]

Such a good debate, and really enjoy reading. Well, if you are against coal mining that is because I am just not seeing how anyone could be against it! I would like to see a poll of people who ARE against coal mining and people who ARE against the death penalty and I would guarantee that those people who did vote against it are 99% the same people!

[DevilsWin]

Such a good debate, and really enjoy reading. Well, if you are against coal mining that is because I am just not seeing how anyone could be against it! I would like to see a poll of people who ARE against coal mining and people who ARE against the death penalty and I would guarantee that those people who did vote against it are 99% the same people!
So would it suffice to say that in your opinion people who are against coal put justice, morality and the greater good for all ahead of their own selfish personal wants or needs?
Cause just let me tell you, innocent people get sent to death row all the time. I just hope it's not you or me next time they get it wrong.

[Coach_Owens87]

CO87: Since no industry keeps up with total land being mined. You may want to contact the Office of Surface Mining and Reclamation, I'm sure they should have that number somewhere. Everyone has to keep in mind that not every mountain top or ridgeline has mineable coal reserves. I've seen several instances where there would be 5 foot of coal one ridge and less than a foot on the next ridge over. Coal seams are very sporadic especially around the top of the mountains.

CO87: Less People Mining ????

CO87: Contour Surface Mining rarely used today and doesn't play an important role in this discussion. Several companies mine by the Contour method, really the majority of companies that use MTR are the larger ones like Massey, Arch etc., the company that I work for has 5 surface mines all of them use the Contour mining method.

CO87: highwalls can not be filled in and just remain there. You got to be kidding me, Where did you come up with tis information, FYI Federal Law passed in 1977 requires highwalls to be reclaimed, if you see any old highwalls along the hillsides then it had to be mined before 1977 or someone forfeited their bond if it was mined after 1977.

CO87: Home Values First if there is anyone out there that lives within a 3/4 mile radius of a surface mine they should have a Pre Blast survey on their house before mining starts or as soon as possible. Coal companies will pay a independent contractor that is licensed to preform a pre blast survey to come to your home, during this survey they will examine the interior for any defects (cracks, water leaks, doors that don't shut well, etc.) pictures or video's will be shoud be taken. The outside of the house will be examined they should pay special attention to the foundation and roof. I would strongly recommend this to anyone living near a mining operation where there is blasting, this can help the home owner prove the damage has been done since blasting started or it can prove the damage was already there prior to blasting. The ATF requires that companies record the amount of explosives and what is used in each shot, the certified blaster will either shoot by scaled distances (houses or building are located on a map with the permitted area) the blaster will use a GPS unit for his location and a distance is then determined to the nearest house or protected structure, or a box is set up at the nearest house to measure the ground vibrations this reading is recorded in the box. If a person calls in a blasting complaint to the state office, all they have to do is to either check the box or the blasting logs and if the company is out of compliance they will be liable for damages.

CO87: 90% of mined land is not used I have no idea where you came up with that number? Must be from a environmental web site.

The waters in Eastern Kentucky and Southern West Virginia are polluted, they are not as bad as they once were, but I think the biggest problem with the streams is the fact that there are still to many sewer lines that run straight into them. Just the other day a man who owned a septic cleaning service was caught dumping raw sewage into the Big Sandy River a few miles above the water plant intake, and he had been doing this for months.
Am I understanding you to say that mining is to blame of all of the chemicals in the streams and rivers?

I researched and tried to find the total area of land mined, I couldn't. I read several articles that gave an estimate, which is 1.2 million acres since 1980, 5% of the total land mass, so according to you coal companies should only mine 1% more of the land, thats just not true. (these stats are from the UK department of agriculture.)

Reclamation You can say they are filled in and reclaimed, and I wont argue that some are, but a lot aren't. All I can go by is pictures of the land before and after mining, a lot of the pictures I see just show brown, barren land. Gravity works against you, you cant completely put the land back, it's impossible.

Home valuesI know the procedure that a homeowner can take when around a blasting site, i've studied it all. You can give me all the crap you want about coal companies paying to fix the damages. It does sound nice, and the coal companies have got a good setup, everything would seem to work right, but it doesn't. In a lot of cases, when coal companies set up small subsidiaries, they file bankruptcy after mining, and whatever damage they caused is left unattended. This happens a lot, and in the other cases calling in a complaint gets you no where, it's just an endless cycle. Coal companies don't care what damage they cause, all they care about is getting money, no matter who, or what the damage in the process.

I dont know why you put ??? for less people mining, you even admitted that was true, but just to restate, mining jobs have decreased by 50% in eastern ky and West Virginia.
90% of mined land not usedI figured you would try to slam my stats, I hate to break you're heart but it didn't come from an environmental site, although I'm sure they have the stats too. The statistics I got came from the UK department of agriculture.

The sewage running into the water could have been an issue 20 years ago, but not now. The majority of people now have running water, a few rural homes may not have it, but most do. What is found in the water is mercury (found just underneath the surface, which is released during blasting), zinc, lead, ammonium nitrate ( which is used in blasting), and others. Some of this does come from waste running into the water, but not all of it. If all of that was coming from human waste, there shouldn't be anyone alive in eastern ky. It's really sad that people here are poor and some don't have the luxury of sewage and running water. The coal companies use that fact to blame others for their mess.

Here are some good sites that aren't by environmental "whackos" that have some really good information and stats about the coal counties. I know you will just glaze over them, throw them off, and go back to your "coal websites", and bash me for using so called environmental sites.

Did you know that coal mining is responsible for burring and damaging more streams than any other form of pollution? That doesnt stack up well for your argument.

http://windpub.com/dirtymoney.htm
http://arri.osmre.gov/KYResearch.htm

[BFritz]

I haven't been following this so this might have been said already, but as soon as we can find a way to cheaply utilize all of coal, it will replace our dependance on oil.

[Football Widow]

I have also really enjoyed this debate.:Thumbs: I think that Old School did have alot of good points that he has stated.

I had a couple of points that I wanted to reply too also. Coach Owens 87 thinks that there is not a problem with sewage running into the creek....Where have you been? Straight pipes are every where. . Also there is alot more people out there without running water than what you think. You should also take into the account that there is a mine over in the Big Creek area that hooked alot of "straight pipers" up to a municiple sewer system. Maybe you should return to examine your county a little bit more. Lung cancer can be more attributed to smoking than anything. Alot of children have asthma simply because their parents smoke inside their tiny car with all the windows up. What could you expect? Also alot more people are sick today, not because of coal mining, but because they won't get off their big lazy rumps and exercise, eat correctly,quit smoking, etc. You should also really check the stats on STD's and hepatitis. Last time I checked my med book, none of these could be coal mining related (unless there is some extra curricular activities going on that I'm not aware of ??:) I could tell that you were "pre-med" when you started talking about illness. Wait till you get out in the "real world" with a job and see real patients. You'll understand where I'm coming from. Coal mining companies give back to the community as well. Don't forget about all the money that they give towards scholarships, school athletics and educational programs. There was also an article in a Prestonsburg news paper about how a mine had donated money to pave a parking lot at Jenny Wiley. Please try to remember the good things that these companies do as well!

[PLAYBOY5]

So would it suffice to say that in your opinion people who are against coal put justice, morality and the greater good for all ahead of their own selfish personal wants or needs?
Cause just let me tell you, innocent people get sent to death row all the time. I just hope it's not you or me next time they get it wrong.
And thank you very much for proving the point I was trying to make!

[Old School]

CO87: Less People Mining ????

Reclamation You can say they are filled in and reclaimed, and I wont argue that some are, but a lot aren't. All I can go by is pictures of the land before and after mining, a lot of the pictures I see just show brown, barren land. Gravity works against you, you cant completely put the land back, it's impossible.

Home valuesI know the procedure that a homeowner can take when around a blasting site, i've studied it all. You can give me all the crap you want about coal companies paying to fix the damages. It does sound nice, and the coal companies have got a good setup, everything would seem to work right, but it doesn't. In a lot of cases, when coal companies set up small subsidiaries, they file bankruptcy after mining, and whatever damage they caused is left unattended. This happens a lot, and in the other cases calling in a complaint gets you no where, it's just an endless cycle. Coal companies don't care what damage they cause, all they care about is getting money, no matter who, or what the damage in the process.

I dont know why you put ??? for less people mining, you even admitted that was true, but just to restate, mining jobs have decreased by 50% in eastern ky and West Virginia.
90% of mined land not usedI figured you would try to slam my stats, I hate to break you're heart but it didn't come from an environmental site, although I'm sure they have the stats too. The statistics I got came from the UK department of agriculture.

The sewage running into the water could have been an issue 20 years ago, but not now. The majority of people now have running water, a few rural homes may not have it, but most do. What is found in the water is mercury (found just underneath the surface, which is released during blasting), zinc, lead, ammonium nitrate ( which is used in blasting), and others. Some of this does come from waste running into the water, but not all of it. If all of that was coming from human waste, there shouldn't be anyone alive in eastern ky. It's really sad that people here are poor and some don't have the luxury of sewage and running water. The coal companies use that fact to blame others for their mess.

Here are some good sites that aren't by environmental "whackos" that have some really good information and stats about the coal counties. I know you will just glaze over them, throw them off, and go back to your "coal websites", and bash me for using so called environmental sites.

Did you know that coal mining is responsible for burring and damaging more streams than any other form of pollution? That doesnt stack up well for your argument.

http://windpub.com/dirtymoney.htm
http://arri.osmre.gov/KYResearch.htm[/quote]


You hit the nail on the head with "all I can go by is pictures of land before and after mining" the photographs show you what they want you to see, do you know the details, were they finished with the reclamation or what time of the year were the photos taken.
I never said you could put the land back to it's original contour, most coal companies try to reach 85% of the original contour.

So you know the procedures a homeowner has around a blasting site, and you say you've studied it all. Well sonny you may want to go back to study hall and hit the books one more time, because I have dealt with blasting problems before and if we were at fault we did pay for damages, most of the property owners agreed to have the pre blast surveys, and sometimes it showed that the damage was done after we started blasting and sometimes it proved that the damage was there before we started blasting. In West Virginia if a property owner calls in a complaint if it's blasting or something else a inspector has to investigate and file a report on his findings.

Now CO87 we've went down this same road a couple of months ago in another thread, I know you've heard of the Applicant Violator System in case you've forgot let me refresh your memory, before a permit is issued the Name and Social Security No. of the owner/owners and company officers are entered into this program, now every coal company has to put up a bond for each permit they receive, if they file bankruptcy and don't reclaim the distrubed areas the bond is forfeited, the names of the owner/owners and company officers are flagged in the Applicant Violator System and they will never be able to obtain another permit in their names or be a officer, even if they start another company or go to work for someone else.

Don't give me that "Coal Companies don't care about anyone but themselfs" bit as I told you in the other thread (Compare Bush's House to Al Gores) about the services that some coal companies provide to the surrounding communities. If any one is interested they can go the (Compare Bush's House to Al Gores thread) and read some of the same information that is being posted on this thread.

The question marks were my mistake, I intended to come back and comment,

So why all the fuss about decreasing jobs in the coal mines, like I stated before new techology enables more coal to be mined with fewer people, just like more cars can be built with fewer people and so on. Are you wanting us to go back to the days of the pick and shovel, while were at it let's do away with the assembly line and bring back the old crank phones with party lines.

Straight sewer pipes are not a problem Like Football Widow said "where have you been they are everywhere" you need to get out of the Big City every once in a while and revisit you roots. What does having running water in your house have to do with running raw sewage straight into the creek?

Sorry to bust you bubble but, we've been surface and underground mining on the same property (+/- 40,000 acres) the last 15 years and we have never detected any amount of mercury, zinc, lead or ammonium nitrate in any of our water samples taken from our ponds, streams.

As far as your web sites I'll try to look at them tomarrow it already past my bed time.

[Coach_Owens87]

CO87: Less People Mining ????

Reclamation You can say they are filled in and reclaimed, and I wont argue that some are, but a lot aren't. All I can go by is pictures of the land before and after mining, a lot of the pictures I see just show brown, barren land. Gravity works against you, you cant completely put the land back, it's impossible.

Home valuesI know the procedure that a homeowner can take when around a blasting site, i've studied it all. You can give me all the crap you want about coal companies paying to fix the damages. It does sound nice, and the coal companies have got a good setup, everything would seem to work right, but it doesn't. In a lot of cases, when coal companies set up small subsidiaries, they file bankruptcy after mining, and whatever damage they caused is left unattended. This happens a lot, and in the other cases calling in a complaint gets you no where, it's just an endless cycle. Coal companies don't care what damage they cause, all they care about is getting money, no matter who, or what the damage in the process.


I dont know why you put ??? for less people mining, you even admitted that was true, but just to restate, mining jobs have decreased by 50% in eastern ky and West Virginia.
90% of mined land not usedI figured you would try to slam my stats, I hate to break you're heart but it didn't come from an environmental site, although I'm sure they have the stats too. The statistics I got came from the UK department of agriculture.

The sewage running into the water could have been an issue 20 years ago, but not now. The majority of people now have running water, a few rural homes may not have it, but most do. What is found in the water is mercury (found just underneath the surface, which is released during blasting), zinc, lead, ammonium nitrate ( which is used in blasting), and others. Some of this does come from waste running into the water, but not all of it. If all of that was coming from human waste, there shouldn't be anyone alive in eastern ky. It's really sad that people here are poor and some don't have the luxury of sewage and running water. The coal companies use that fact to blame others for their mess.

Here are some good sites that aren't by environmental "whackos" that have some really good information and stats about the coal counties. I know you will just glaze over them, throw them off, and go back to your "coal websites", and bash me for using so called environmental sites.

Did you know that coal mining is responsible for burring and damaging more streams than any other form of pollution? That doesnt stack up well for your argument.

http://windpub.com/dirtymoney.htm
http://arri.osmre.gov/KYResearch.htm


You hit the nail on the head with "all I can go by is pictures of land before and after mining" the photographs show you what they want you to see, do you know the details, were they finished with the reclamation or what time of the year were the photos taken.
I never said you could put the land back to it's original contour, most coal companies try to reach 85% of the original contour.

So you know the procedures a homeowner has around a blasting site, and you say you've studied it all. Well sonny you may want to go back to study hall and hit the books one more time, because I have dealt with blasting problems before and if we were at fault we did pay for damages, most of the property owners agreed to have the pre blast surveys, and sometimes it showed that the damage was done after we started blasting and sometimes it proved that the damage was there before we started blasting. In West Virginia if a property owner calls in a complaint if it's blasting or something else a inspector has to investigate and file a report on his findings.

Now CO87 we've went down this same road a couple of months ago in another thread, I know you've heard of the Applicant Violator System in case you've forgot let me refresh your memory, before a permit is issued the Name and Social Security No. of the owner/owners and company officers are entered into this program, now every coal company has to put up a bond for each permit they receive, if they file bankruptcy and don't reclaim the distrubed areas the bond is forfeited, the names of the owner/owners and company officers are flagged in the Applicant Violator System and they will never be able to obtain another permit in their names or be a officer, even if they start another company or go to work for someone else.

Don't give me that "Coal Companies don't care about anyone but themselfs" bit as I told you in the other thread (Compare Bush's House to Al Gores) about the services that some coal companies provide to the surrounding communities. If any one is interested they can go the (Compare Bush's House to Al Gores thread) and read some of the same information that is being posted on this thread.

The question marks were my mistake, I intended to come back and comment,

So why all the fuss about decreasing jobs in the coal mines, like I stated before new techology enables more coal to be mined with fewer people, just like more cars can be built with fewer people and so on. Are you wanting us to go back to the days of the pick and shovel, while were at it let's do away with the assembly line and bring back the old crank phones with party lines.

Straight sewer pipes are not a problem Like Football Widow said "where have you been they are everywhere" you need to get out of the Big City every once in a while and revisit you roots. What does having running water in your house have to do with running raw sewage straight into the creek?

Sorry to bust you bubble but, we've been surface and underground mining on the same property (+/- 40,000 acres) the last 15 years and we have never detected any amount of mercury, zinc, lead or ammonium nitrate in any of our water samples taken from our ponds, streams.

As far as your web sites I'll try to look at them tomarrow it already past my bed time.[/QUOTE]

The photos I spoke of where taken after reclamation, and during the spring, so everything was in full bloom, all that could be seen along the ridges where barren land. Some sites had fescue grass, there root system fights against those of the native trees and makes it nearly impossible for a forest to return.

I need to get out of the big city, lol, last time I checked Hindman Ky was not a "big city", Ive lived in eastern KY all my life, Ive never left my roots.

I know that companies are supposed to put things back, but don't kid yourself and say that they do. Yes some do, but a lot of companies don't. Many companies open subsidiaries, mine a place, and then shut down and move on to another site and do the same thing. I know you say they are flagged and that they have to put up bond money, I know all of that, they put up money, a majority of the amount required to reclaim before they mine, if they shut down, the state then takes over and reclaims. The whole crap about not being able to mine again is bull, yes the subsidiary cant mine, but the head company just moves on.


You say you never tested any water that contained mercury, zinc, or lead, thats kind of hard to believe since I took water from the creek in front of my house and fount all of those elements in a chemical lab test at my college. MY professor took water samples from creeks in three different counties and discovered the same thing. All of these streams are fed by headwaters that have been affected by mining. I looked at samples that where evaluated by the epa, and other agencies and they fount many of the same things. If all companies where as clean as yours I wouldn't have anything to complain about.

The point I was trying to make with running water is that things have changed here, years ago many people didnt have running water, or sewage, they drew water from wells, and dumped waste anywhere they could. people run sewage into the creek to keep from paying for a septic tank. Getting more jobs, an education opportunites to this region would end most of those problems.

You can give me all the rules, and regulations from the coal companies that you wont. You can also say that I want to end all mining jobs, and scare people into believing you, it's what you guys do best, but It doesn't matter, I know the rules, I'm just trying to tell you that a lot of coal companies aren't obeying laws and trying to get a good citizen award.

Yeah yeah yeah, coal companies do great things for the communities, the only reason they do that is to keep a good image with a community that is already feared into thinking life cannot go on without them. Thats like saying the mob done great things for the communities in Chicago, or that the terrorist who give money for schools in their region are good people. Them donating money, and doing community projects does not make up for the atrocities they are causing in Appalachia.

[DevilsWin]

And thank you very much for proving the point I was trying to make!
I wish to retract my last sentence. I do hope that you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and have to sit on death row knowing your an innocent man. Is that what it would take to convince you that your just plain wrong?

I'm not gonna go on about the death penalty but I will say that you seem very selfish and only worried about yourself and your families needs. The whole rest of the world can go to **** in a hand basket as long as Playboy5 gets to do as he wishes regardless of how it effects other people. That's not the American Way and that's not the Christian Way either.

This whole generation of people in their 20's gets me with their sense of "entitlement".:puking:

[TidesHoss32]

Yeah, and you sitting there wishing for an innocent man to be put on death row isnt exactly a Christian thing either. Or is that the DevilsWin logic behind things? I support the death penalty, does that make me selfish? To wish child molesters, murderers, rapists to get the punishment they deserve? Yeah, it IS our sense of "entitlement". And I would doubt very seriously, betting the house on it, that we've ever hung an "innocent" human. I wish to retract my last sentence. I do hope that you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and have to sit on death row knowing your an innocent man. Is that what it would take to convince you that your just plain wrong?

I'm not gonna go on about the death penalty but I will say that you seem very selfish and only worried about yourself and your families needs. The whole rest of the world can go to **** in a hand basket as long as Playboy5 gets to do as he wishes regardless of how it effects other people. That's not the American Way and that's not the Christian Way either.

This whole generation of people in their 20's gets me with their sense of "entitlement".:puking:

[Coach_Owens87]

Tidehoss, I think you took DW's reply the wrong way. I don't believe he was wishing for you to die, just that he wonders what you would be feeling if you were sitting on death row knowing you're an innocent man. People just like to know that someone paid for the crime, even though it may not be the man/woman that committed it.

I don't believe that the death penalty is right, for a society that condemns murder, how is it ok for that societies government to do the same thing. When we punish a murderer to death, aren't we just as bad?

Now before you give me the typical "why do you hate justice, and the law", I don't, I believe some sort of punishment is deserved, but our justice systems needs to work on changing criminals, not locking them up for a while, and then releasing them.

[TidesHoss32]

OK, I have a question for you. And I know we are way off topic, but I have a serious question for anybody that opposes the death penalty. I worked 7 1/2 years in a Supermaximum security prison, and Ive dealt with these animals personally. But answer this question for me. I know nothing about you CO87, other than we disagree on coalmining. That doesnt by any means make you a bad person in my eyes at all, just we have a disagreement on a subject we consider serious. Now for my question. Say you have a family, because like I said, I dont know..but say you married your high school sweetheart, had two children. And some punk coward rapist breaks into your house. He molests both of your children before bashing both of them, screaming, to their deaths. He then rapes your wife, stabs her and beats her, screaming, to her death. Now, I use this because this is absolutely typical of what DIDNT get the death penalty. Im asking you, not being sarcastic, but how can you oppose the death penalty, when something like that happens to your family? I use my neice and nephew, because Im not married, nor do I have kids. But if someone hurt either of them, IF they escape me (which they wouldnt but anyways), I would want them dead immediately. Id want their time in **** to be served ASAP. Tidehoss, I think you took DW's reply the wrong way. I don't believe he was wishing for you to die, just that he wonders what you would be feeling if you were sitting on death row knowing you're an innocent man. People just like to know that someone paid for the crime, even though it may not be the man/woman that committed it.

I don't believe that the death penalty is right, for a society that condemns murder, how is it ok for that societies government to do the same thing. When we punish a murderer to death, aren't we just as bad?

Now before you give me the typical "why do you hate justice, and the law", I don't, I believe some sort of punishment is deserved, but our justice systems needs to work on changing criminals, not locking them up for a while, and then releasing them.

[Coach_Owens87]

OK, I have a question for you. And I know we are way off topic, but I have a serious question for anybody that opposes the death penalty. I worked 7 1/2 years in a Supermaximum security prison, and Ive dealt with these animals personally. But answer this question for me. I know nothing about you CO87, other than we disagree on coalmining. That doesnt by any means make you a bad person in my eyes at all, just we have a disagreement on a subject we consider serious. Now for my question. Say you have a family, because like I said, I dont know..but say you married your high school sweetheart, had two children. And some punk coward rapist breaks into your house. He molests both of your children before bashing both of them, screaming, to their deaths. He then rapes your wife, stabs her and beats her, screaming, to her death. Now, I use this because this is absolutely typical of what DIDNT get the death penalty. Im asking you, not being sarcastic, but how can you oppose the death penalty, when something like that happens to your family? I use my neice and nephew, because Im not married, nor do I have kids. But if someone hurt either of them, IF they escape me (which they wouldnt but anyways), I would want them dead immediately. Id want their time in **** to be served ASAP.

I knew you would ask that question.

I'm not married, but I have 2 younger sisters that I absolutely adore, if something happened like the story you mentioned I would be absolutely destroyed. It would take a lot from me to not kill the person myself. One thing would stop me though, my faith, I do not believe that I would make things better by stooping to their level and killing them, it would just make me as bad as they are. You say you would want their time in **** served ASAP, but wouldn't you go to **** too? Doesn't the bible warn against the evils of revenge, and if my memory serves me correct god says in the ten commandments "Thou shall not kill". Not matter what happens to the criminal, the victims will never return.

My faith just tells me that killing is wrong, no matter who is killed.

[cig107]

CO87: Since no industry keeps up with total land being mined. You may want to contact the Office of Surface Mining and Reclamation, I'm sure they should have that number somewhere. Everyone has to keep in mind that not every mountain top or ridgeline has mineable coal reserves. I've seen several instances where there would be 5 foot of coal one ridge and less than a foot on the next ridge over. Coal seams are very sporadic especially around the top of the mountains.

CO87: Less People Mining ????

CO87: Contour Surface Mining rarely used today and doesn't play an important role in this discussion. Several companies mine by the Contour method, really the majority of companies that use MTR are the larger ones like Massey, Arch etc., the company that I work for has 5 surface mines all of them use the Contour mining method.

CO87: highwalls can not be filled in and just remain there. You got to be kidding me, Where did you come up with tis information, FYI Federal Law passed in 1977 requires highwalls to be reclaimed, if you see any old highwalls along the hillsides then it had to be mined before 1977 or someone forfeited their bond if it was mined after 1977.

CO87: Home Values First if there is anyone out there that lives within a 3/4 mile radius of a surface mine they should have a Pre Blast survey on their house before mining starts or as soon as possible. Coal companies will pay a independent contractor that is licensed to preform a pre blast survey to come to your home, during this survey they will examine the interior for any defects (cracks, water leaks, doors that don't shut well, etc.) pictures or video's will be shoud be taken. The outside of the house will be examined they should pay special attention to the foundation and roof. I would strongly recommend this to anyone living near a mining operation where there is blasting, this can help the home owner prove the damage has been done since blasting started or it can prove the damage was already there prior to blasting. The ATF requires that companies record the amount of explosives and what is used in each shot, the certified blaster will either shoot by scaled distances (houses or building are located on a map with the permitted area) the blaster will use a GPS unit for his location and a distance is then determined to the nearest house or protected structure, or a box is set up at the nearest house to measure the ground vibrations this reading is recorded in the box. If a person calls in a blasting complaint to the state office, all they have to do is to either check the box or the blasting logs and if the company is out of compliance they will be liable for damages.

CO87: 90% of mined land is not used I have no idea where you came up with that number? Must be from a environmental web site.

The waters in Eastern Kentucky and Southern West Virginia are polluted, they are not as bad as they once were, but I think the biggest problem with the streams is the fact that there are still to many sewer lines that run straight into them. Just the other day a man who owned a septic cleaning service was caught dumping raw sewage into the Big Sandy River a few miles above the water plant intake, and he had been doing this for months.
Am I understanding you to say that mining is to blame of all of the chemicals in the streams and rivers?

I researched and tried to find the total area of land mined, I couldn't. I read several articles that gave an estimate, which is 1.2 million acres since 1980, 5% of the total land mass, so according to you coal companies should only mine 1% more of the land, thats just not true. (these stats are from the UK department of agriculture.)

Reclamation You can say they are filled in and reclaimed, and I wont argue that some are, but a lot aren't. All I can go by is pictures of the land before and after mining, a lot of the pictures I see just show brown, barren land. Gravity works against you, you cant completely put the land back, it's impossible.

Home valuesI know the procedure that a homeowner can take when around a blasting site, i've studied it all. You can give me all the crap you want about coal companies paying to fix the damages. It does sound nice, and the coal companies have got a good setup, everything would seem to work right, but it doesn't. In a lot of cases, when coal companies set up small subsidiaries, they file bankruptcy after mining, and whatever damage they caused is left unattended. This happens a lot, and in the other cases calling in a complaint gets you no where, it's just an endless cycle. Coal companies don't care what damage they cause, all they care about is getting money, no matter who, or what the damage in the process.

I dont know why you put ??? for less people mining, you even admitted that was true, but just to restate, mining jobs have decreased by 50% in eastern ky and West Virginia.
90% of mined land not usedI figured you would try to slam my stats, I hate to break you're heart but it didn't come from an environmental site, although I'm sure they have the stats too. The statistics I got came from the UK department of agriculture.

The sewage running into the water could have been an issue 20 years ago, but not now. The majority of people now have running water, a few rural homes may not have it, but most do. What is found in the water is mercury (found just underneath the surface, which is released during blasting), zinc, lead, ammonium nitrate ( which is used in blasting), and others. Some of this does come from waste running into the water, but not all of it. If all of that was coming from human waste, there shouldn't be anyone alive in eastern ky. It's really sad that people here are poor and some don't have the luxury of sewage and running water. The coal companies use that fact to blame others for their mess.

Here are some good sites that aren't by environmental "whackos" that have some really good information and stats about the coal counties. I know you will just glaze over them, throw them off, and go back to your "coal websites", and bash me for using so called environmental sites.

Did you know that coal mining is responsible for burring and damaging more streams than any other form of pollution? That doesnt stack up well for your argument.

http://windpub.com/dirtymoney.htm
http://arri.osmre.gov/KYResearch.htm

TREEHUGGER!!!

[PLAYBOY5]

I wish to retract my last sentence. I do hope that you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and have to sit on death row knowing your an innocent man. Is that what it would take to convince you that your just plain wrong?

I'm not gonna go on about the death penalty but I will say that you seem very selfish and only worried about yourself and your families needs. The whole rest of the world can go to **** in a hand basket as long as Playboy5 gets to do as he wishes regardless of how it effects other people. That's not the American Way and that's not the Christian Way either.

This whole generation of people in their 20's gets me with their sense of "entitlement".:puking:

So you hope I am in the wrong place and get accused of something that i didn't do and am sent on DEATH ROW, LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Too many connections bro! Sorry! You are the one wrong IMO! Just Like TH32 put it, which knowing you, you probably would still be against it and try to council the guy huh. I wouldn't be shocked one bit! The Christian way MR. DEVILS WIN! Yeah, you have so many great points and boy have you brought everything into this one. How am I selfish, because I believe in coal in Eastern Ky and I believe in the death penalty? And I could care less what you think of people and the entire generation in there 20's!:popcorn: :howdy: :1:

[PLAYBOY5]

I knew you would ask that question.

I'm not married, but I have 2 younger sisters that I absolutely adore, if something happened like the story you mentioned I would be absolutely destroyed. It would take a lot from me to not kill the person myself. One thing would stop me though, my faith, I do not believe that I would make things better by stooping to their level and killing them, it would just make me as bad as they are. You say you would want their time in **** served ASAP, but wouldn't you go to **** too? Doesn't the bible warn against the evils of revenge, and if my memory serves me correct god says in the ten commandments "Thou shall not kill". Not matter what happens to the criminal, the victims will never return.

My faith just tells me that killing is wrong, no matter who is killed.

Well I am glad you feel that way. You are ALOT better person than I am because they would be killed the first chance I got if they did something like that to my family or **** even friends. AND BTW, YOU WOULDN'T BE THE ONE KILLING THEM! THAT IS WHY THEY ARE A COURT SYSTEM AND THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE JURORS! God isn't looking at you like you are the one killing them! You aren't injecting them. We are talking about the death penalty not literally killing someone. But that is another thread anyways!

[PLAYBOY5]

And I am not sure if you have looked at the poll numbers yet, but well, 46-2 uh...I think I will keep on having paper for a while! TATA MOUNTAIN TOPS!

[DevilsWin]

And I would doubt very seriously, betting the house on it, that we've ever hung an "innocent" human.

This statement proves that you kow absolutely nothing about the death penalty. Why do you think the state of Illinios has stopped all executions?

I have a better solutions for the guy who raped, molested and murdered a family. Lets put him in a labor camp making big rocks into little rocks all day. Work him so hard that he dies of natural causes at an early age so we don't have to feed him forever. I'm not against punishment and I don't support counseling for Criminals given life sentences. However If an inmate doesn't get life in prison he or she must be rehabilitated through counseling and education otherwise when thay get out they will victimize people the same way they did before getting locked up. Now if you don't mind lets get back to coal mining or start another thread about the death penalty. PS have you seen the movie Monsters Ball? Great movie about the Texas Prison system death squads.


P.S. The United States Constition and the Bill of Rights give all US Citizens protection from "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". If the death penalty isn't Cruel and Unusual then I don't know what would be.

[DevilsWin]

Tidehoss, I think you took DW's reply the wrong way. I don't believe he was wishing for you to die, just that he wonders what you would be feeling if you were sitting on death row knowing you're an innocent man. People just like to know that someone paid for the crime, even though it may not be the man/woman that committed it.

I don't believe that the death penalty is right, for a society that condemns murder, how is it ok for that societies government to do the same thing. When we punish a murderer to death, aren't we just as bad?

Now before you give me the typical "why do you hate justice, and the law", I don't, I believe some sort of punishment is deserved, but our justice systems needs to work on changing criminals, not locking them up for a while, and then releasing them.

Well said Coach! These "Me First, Screw everyone else" philosophers are a dying breed and that's why they're so angry. People that believe the way we do vastly outnumber the backwards thinking people in this debate. The reason we get outnumbered on the poll is simply because this is a board for an area that has been historically dependent on Coal. As you pointed out earlier. Coal jobs are becoming an endangered species. First it was strip mining then mountaintop removal.
Remember what John Prine said when he wrote.
"Then the Coal company came with the worlds largest shovel and they tortured the timber and stripped all the land. They dug for their coal till the land was forsaken and they wrote it all down as the progress of man."

We will prevail coach, and they'll just get angry.

[PLAYBOY5]

Right, John Prine huh..Well tell John Denver..OH WAIT...WE CAN'T! He believes in taking tree tops off too~

[Coach_Owens87]

DW, thanks for the support, it's rare that I get anything positive on this board.

Lets get back to death penalty for one second, Tidehoss said that the death penalty is not literally killing someone. lol, when someone is put to death, that is killing them, I dont see how being killed is not "literary killing".

Tidehoss I don't care who kills the person, it's still wrong.

DW, You're exactly right on this area being dependent on coal, everyone on this board has shown that. We're so afraid that if coal leaves we will have nothing, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.


I knew I was fighting a losing debate when I stated my opinion on this site, but no matter how many people disagree with me, It will never change my mind I want I think is right. I will not join the rest and be silent as my home is destroyed.

There is a large and growing number of people that opposes MTR, there has always been a large group, but most have never spoken out. I believe that some think turning a deaf ear to them will silence all critics, it's not working for George Bush and it's not going to work for coal companies.

BTW, I love the John Prine quote.

[Coach_Owens87]

And I am not sure if you have looked at the poll numbers yet, but well, 46-2 uh...I think I will keep on having paper for a while! TATA MOUNTAIN TOPS!

Tidehoss, removing a mountain has very little to do with you having paper, it powers this computer, but the majority of wood used in paper manufacturing does not come from this area. If MTR has anything to do with paper manufacturing it would decrease it, NO TREES = NO PAPER, simple math.

[DevilsWin]

DW, thanks for the support, it's rare that I get anything positive on this board.

Lets get back to death penalty for one second, Tidehoss said that the death penalty is not literally killing someone. lol, when someone is put to death, that is killing them, I dont see how being killed is not "literary killing".

Tidehoss I don't care who kills the person, it's still wrong.

DW, You're exactly right on this area being dependent on coal, everyone on this board has shown that. We're so afraid that if coa