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Old 03-03-2018, 09:23 PM
Hoot Gibson Hoot Gibson is offline
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Default Trump must think twice about tariffs
Big labor union leaders like Richard Trumpka are praising President Trump's announcements of steep tariffs on imported steel and aluminum. Other liberals are cheering his gun control proposals and his proposal to hike the federal gasoline tax. Will this country every have another conservative president who believes in free trade, capitalism, enforcement of our immigration laws, and is willing to fight to protect our Constitutional rights?

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Trump must think twice about tariffs

One of the ironies of trade protectionism is that tariffs and import quotas are what we do to ourselves in times of peace and what foreign nations do to u‎s with blockades to keep imports from entering our country in times of war. Or consider that we impose sanctions on U.S. enemies such as North Korea, Russia and Iran because we want them to feel the economic pain of being deprived of imports. But now we are imposing sanctions on our own country by punishing with tariffs in order to make Americans more prosperous. If ever there were a crisis of logic, this is it.

‎Donald Trump genuinely believes that his steel and aluminum tariffs will save thousands of blue-collar jobs. We know from our interactions with him that he truly cares about these workers in Pennsylvania, Ohio and other Rust Belt states. We do too and we don't want factories to shut down. But even if tariffs save every one of the 140,000 or so steel jobs in America, it puts at risk five million manufacturing and related jobs in industries that use steel. These producers now have to compete in hyper-competitive international markets using steel that is 20 percent above the world price and aluminum that is 7 percent to 10 percent above the price paid by our foreign rivals.

In other words, steel and aluminum may win in the short term, but the‎ steel and aluminum users and consumers lose. In fact, tariff hikes are really tax hikes. Some of those five million jobs will be put in harmís way. If they sell less to foreigners, the trade deficit goes up, not down. Since so many of the things Americans consumers buy today are made of steel or aluminum, a 25 percent tariff may get passed on to consumers at the cash register. This is a regressive tax on low income families.

Trump should also examine the historical record on tariffs, because they have almost never worked as intended and almost always deliver an unhappy ending. The Smoot Hawley tariff of 1929 signed into law by Herbert Hoover gave us the Great Depression and worsened it. Richard Nixonís 10 percent import surcharge contributed to the stagflation of the 1970s. George W. Bush tried to save the steel industry by imposing tariffs on steel. If those tariffs worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion today. ‎We tried to save the color television industry with protectionist measures. Instead, they wiped out domestic production.

We arenít persuaded by the Trump administrationís claim that we need to impose these tariffs for national security reasons. Despite stiff competition from imports, many specialty steel producers are doing just fine and actually exporting steel to Mexico and Canada. Meanwhile, Canada is the No. 1 exporter of steel to the United States. Does anyone really believe Canada is a national security threat to the United States?

What does worry us is that Canada and Mexico are now both threatening retaliatory tariffs against America. This tit-for-tat trade breakdown could put the North American Free Trade Agreement in serious jeopardy. That could inflict severe economic damage to all three nations, and a stock market meltdown.

Trump should continue to make American producers more competitive in global markets through tax, regulatory, energy, and other pro-America policy changes that bring jobs and capital back to the United States. That is happening at a furious pace right now as Trump has made America almost overnight the best and most reliable place in the world to invest. Steel and aluminum import tariffs will work decisively against this goal.

In the early 1980s, Ronald Reaganís invoked anti-dumping provisions against Japanese steel. It was one of his few decisions he later confessed he wishes he hadnít made. ‎Trump will come to learn the same thing, and we hope it is sooner, not later.

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Old 03-04-2018, 05:08 PM
ekyswvahsfan ekyswvahsfan is offline
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Free trade is not a conservative litmus test. I consider myself an implacable social conservative, but would never support a free trader- no matter how conservative- for public office. Free trade has been a curse on much of this country. I suggest you tell textile workers throughout the Upper South, furniture workers, steelworkers, and auto parts workers- among others- how great it is. Free trade is the curse of our small towns and cities. The proponents of free trade are the enemies of the common people.
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Old 03-04-2018, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ekyswvahsfan View Post
Free trade is not a conservative litmus test. I consider myself an implacable social conservative, but would never support a free trader- no matter how conservative- for public office. Free trade has been a curse on much of this country. I suggest you tell textile workers throughout the Upper South, furniture workers, steelworkers, and auto parts workers- among others- how great it is. Free trade is the curse of our small towns and cities. The proponents of free trade are the enemies of the common people.
Trade wars create a lot of very poor common people. The steel industry has been thriving in this country in recent years and 70 percent of the steel used in this country is produced domestically.

Trump was on the right track when he lowered personal and corporate tax rates and rolled back ridiculous regulations on manufacturing, but he has jumped the rails with his tariff proposals. The biggest villain in the global economy is China, which systematically steals our intellectual property and widely uses slave labor to produce cheap knock-offs, but these tariffs will hurt trading partners like Canada and EU most.

The Great Depression should have ended the debate over whether high tariffs can produce prosperity and the notion that trade wars are easy to "win."

BTW, the article to which I linked was written by three of Trump's top economic advisers, who obviously did not believe his campaign promises to impose high tariffs on imports. The proponents of protectionist policies are the real enemies of so-called "common people." If you want to know who pays tariffs, then look to your left, look to your right, and then look in the mirror.
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Old 03-04-2018, 10:05 PM
ekyswvahsfan ekyswvahsfan is offline
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As someone who has seen firsthand the devastation caused by free trade I can say categorically that the common people are not helped by free trade. It is impossible to find hardly a community that has suffered the loss of an industry to free trade that has been able to find an adequate substitute for the industries that have been lost. Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and West Virginia have been disproportionately affected. The small towns and rural areas that were dependent on these industries have suffered massive economic dislocation. Upper income surburbia and high tech areas have disproportionately benefited. Far better to have somewhat more expensive furniture, textiles, and other commonplace goods than to have these communities become welfare havens. I am very much a Theodore Roosevelt Republican when it comes to business- especially big business. The anti-trust laws should be applied forcefully to large economic aggregates. A lot of the largest companies now in existence- heavily dependent on free trade- should be broken up.
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Old 03-04-2018, 10:30 PM
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As somebody who has worked on site at one of Nucor's large, modern steel mills, I can tell you that modern American steel mills can and do compete with any in the world. Trump's tariff on imported steel is a gift to a big, corrupt labor union - the kind of gift that usually comes from liberal Democrats who do not understand or care about how our economy works.

No government has ever created a more robust economy by raising taxes on consumers and a tariff is a tax on consumption. It has never worked in the past and it will not work for Trump either.

This country developed the largest economy in the history of the world through free trade. I don't understand how any American cannot grasp that fact. High tariffs are just as much an attempt to interfere with free trade as government backed monopolies are. Both are drags on this country's economy.
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:23 AM
jetpilot jetpilot is offline
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Originally Posted by Hoot Gibson View Post
As somebody who has worked on site at one of Nucor's large, modern steel mills, I can tell you that modern American steel mills can and do compete with any in the world. Trump's tariff on imported steel is a gift to a big, corrupt labor union - the kind of gift that usually comes from liberal Democrats who do not understand or care about how our economy works.

No government has ever created a more robust economy by raising taxes on consumers and a tariff is a tax on consumption. It has never worked in the past and it will not work for Trump either.

This country developed the largest economy in the history of the world through free trade. I don't understand how any American cannot grasp that fact. High tariffs are just as much an attempt to interfere with free trade as government backed monopolies are. Both are drags on this country's economy.
More like through debt. As in awash in debt. We don't produce much anymore but we are consumers of other countries' goods to the tune of a trade deficit on a pace of >$600 BILLION a year, transferring wealth to other nations, again while piling up consumer and national debt that has spiraled way out of control. Trump is right, other countries have been eating our lunch and it's time to get tough. And no I don't believe establishment politicians and the media when they whine about it either. You are usually good at backing up your claims, please provide a few links to back up your argument and I will be happy to give them a read.
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Old 03-05-2018, 02:33 AM
Hoot Gibson Hoot Gibson is offline
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Originally Posted by jetpilot View Post
More like through debt. As in awash in debt. We don't produce much anymore but we are consumers of other countries' goods to the tune of a trade deficit on a pace of >$600 BILLION a year, transferring wealth to other nations, again while piling up consumer and national debt that has spiraled way out of control. Trump is right, other countries have been eating our lunch and it's time to get tough. And no I don't believe establishment politicians and the media when they whine about it either. You are usually good at backing up your claims, please provide a few links to back up your argument and I will be happy to give them a read.
You are right about debt financing our recent prosperity, but this country was transformed into an economic powerhouse before both parties started burdening future generations with unmanageable debt. Trump's first budget, with its projected $1.2 trillion deficit continues that tradition of passing the bill forward.

I would be glad to provide some links, which I have done before, but I don't have time tonight. I have a project due tomorrow. The base was closed on Friday and our power was out for 18 hours. Wind gusts over 60 mph left more than 250,000 NOVA customers without power.

I think Milton Friedman did the best job defending free market principles and there are many hours of video of his debates and lectures on Youtube. Thomoas Sowell, who was a student of Friedman's is also very good.
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Old 03-05-2018, 09:53 AM
Bob Seger Bob Seger is offline
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I think everyone needs to just calm down and see the deeper picture..This is nothing more than a "shock awakening" to initiate a starting point for negotiating a NAFTA deal....What better way to send a message than to do the outrageous? If you are trying to negotiate a deal you have to start with a worst case scenario with your supplier or trading partner to bring a soberness to possible consequences...Anyone in business will tell you that this is doing business 101. It sometimes takes a nasty and dirty recourse to get a fair or advantageous deal. Of course if you have never been in business and all you know is to listen to the TV and radio experts then....well you see where I'm going.

Classic Trump, the business man, and no one can see it.

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Old 03-05-2018, 10:12 AM
Bob Seger Bob Seger is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Seger View Post
I think everyone needs to just calm down and see the deeper picture..This is nothing more than a "shock awakening" to initiate a starting point for negotiating a NAFTA deal....What better way to send a message than to do the outrageous. If you are trying to negotiate a deal you have to start with a worst case scenario with your supplier or trading partner to bring a soberness to possible consequences...Anyone in business will tell you that this is doing business 101. It sometimes takes a nasty and dirty recourse to get a fair or advantageous deal. Of course if you have never been in business and all you know is to listen to the TV and radio experts then....well you see where I'm going.

Classic Trump, the business man, and no one can see it.
I love how the media, the dems and the republican establishment are reacting to what they don't understand....Ignorant fools, ignorant professional career politicians, who think they have a clue, but in reality don't have a first inkling. Then you have the dumbest and sleezeiest form of life that God has ever placed on this planet (aka "the media" ) who want to throw in their 2 cents of idiocy into the discussion.

If there is an outrage, it should be directed at any former or current leader of our country who has not applied Trump's tactics in negotiating our country's business interests before now.

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Old 03-05-2018, 12:12 PM
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BELOW---- Iconic blast furnaces of Armco Steel Corporation cold as a wedge. Ashland has to change it's City Motto from "Where Coal Meets Iron" to "Where Coal Met Iron" This is just one of many examples. There is a reason America transitioned from an industrial based nation to a service based nation. Ask any graduating college student how many good jobs are out there.


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Old 03-06-2018, 12:54 PM
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The news shows are chocked full of financial omniscients this morning. All of them speaking in categorical factualities where it comes to tariffs and such. Of course, the thing that gives me pause is the fact that these are the same experts who presided over the 'new normal' of 1% growth over the past 16 years. These are the same guys who owing to their own failings, were incapable of doing a thing to stem the American industrial downturn. But now magically, despite their flawed record of leadership, the economic mantle of majesty has somehow been conferred upon them anyway, and they are now become the reigning and infallible experts. All of a sudden Karl Rove, Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan know everything there is to know about finance.

Let's just not mention that they had not the first thing to do with the financial surge of 2017. Or that Paul Ryan obligingly went against all that he is so sure about today, to fund the failed policy and programs of the Obama Administration. Or that McConnell cooperated with the Obama Administration to gut the military, and to pursue Romper Room foreign policy. The same foreign policies which contributed so mightily in overburdening 'the people,' with the inequitable and unfair trade imbalances that presently have us in such a strangle hold. Imbalances they all still insist are beneficial BTW.

And let's at least be honest about US economic history here. After WW2 America dominated world industry, banking, and the production of goods. We produced everything here, and became the by far the world's premier superpower. Then came the resurgence of liberal thinking, and the enormous transfer of wealth. In which basically, we rebuilt the planet and made China the premier superpower. Meanwhile, from one end of the Ohio River Valley to the other lay the shuttered ruins of industry.

Liberal thinking, supposedly over concerns about the environment, had rich oil reserves under moratorium for decades. And while we abandon the use of coal over dubious concerns about the environment, ineffective and unreliable wind turbines kill millions of birds annually, many of them eagles and other great birds of prey. But from the bleeding heart libs? not a peep. Over concerns for the endangered Snail darter, liberals successfully caused precious irrigation water for California's critically important farming regions to be diverted instead, to the sea. I don't hear a lot about skyrocketing vegetable costs though, nor the scarcity of fresh produce. Meanwhile, farmers cannot so much as move a rock without the approval of the EPA, and the list of all things stupid is way too long to list in a post. I applaud the man who at least has the courage to go against a going wisdom which has cost America so much.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TheRealThing View Post
The news shows are chocked full of financial omniscients this morning. All of them speaking in categorical factualities where it comes to tariffs and such. Of course, the thing that gives me pause is the fact that these are the same experts who presided over the 'new normal' of 1% growth over the past 16 years. These are the same guys who owing to their own failings, were incapable of doing a thing to stem the American industrial downturn. But now magically, despite their flawed record of leadership, the economic mantle of majesty has somehow been conferred upon them anyway, and they are now become the reigning and infallible experts. All of a sudden Karl Rove, Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan know everything there is to know about finance.

Let's just not mention that they had not the first thing to do with the financial surge of 2017. Or that Paul Ryan obligingly went against all that he is so sure about today, to fund the failed policy and programs of the Obama Administration. Or that McConnell cooperated with the Obama Administration to gut the military, and to pursue Romper Room foreign policy. The same foreign policies which contributed so mightily in overburdening 'the people,' with the inequitable and unfair trade imbalances that presently have us in such a strangle hold. Imbalances they all still insist are beneficial BTW.

And let's at least be honest about US economic history here. After WW2 America dominated world industry, banking, and the production of goods. We produced everything here, and became the by far the world's premier superpower. Then came the resurgence of liberal thinking, and the enormous transfer of wealth. In which basically, we rebuilt the planet and made China the premier superpower. Meanwhile, from one end of the Ohio River Valley to the other lay the shuttered ruins of industry.

Liberal thinking, supposedly over concerns about the environment, had rich oil reserves under moratorium for decades. And while we abandon the use of coal over dubious concerns about the environment, ineffective and unreliable wind turbines kill millions of birds annually, many of them eagles and other great birds of prey. But from the bleeding heart libs? not a peep. Over concerns for the endangered Snail darter, liberals successfully caused precious irrigation water for California's critically important farming regions to be diverted instead, to the sea. I don't hear a lot about skyrocketing vegetable costs though, nor the scarcity of fresh produce. Meanwhile, farmers cannot so much as move a rock without the approval of the EPA, and the list of all things stupid is way too long to list in a post. I applaud the man who at least has the courage to go against a going wisdom which has cost America so much.
Does this mean that you have lost faith in Art Laffer and Stephen Moore now that they have criticized Trump's protectionist moves?

No country has ever taxed itself to prosperity and this country will not be the first to do so.

I agree with you 100 percent about environmental extremists and other liberals being toxic to the economic health of this country, but the reason that the U.S. dominated manufacturing during the late 40s, 50s, and into the 60s was that WWII was not fought on our soil. We rebuilt Germany and Japan, in part, to create an export market for our manufactured goods.

However, Trump's projected $1.2 trillion deficit budget, his amnesty plan for 1.8 million illegal aliens, and his gun control initiatives are not conservative negotiating positions. If you want to continue to blame liberals for what ails this country, you might want to reserve some criticism for the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

These tariffs make no sense to me. China is U.S. Enemy #1, IMO. Only 2 percent of the steel used in this country is imported from China. If Trump was going to punish the bad actors in the global economy and raise prices for American consumers, then he should have wielded a big economic stick at China - not at Canada and the EU.
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Old 03-07-2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoot Gibson View Post
Does this mean that you have lost faith in Art Laffer and Stephen Moore now that they have criticized Trump's protectionist moves?

No country has ever taxed itself to prosperity and this country will not be the first to do so.

I agree with you 100 percent about environmental extremists and other liberals being toxic to the economic health of this country, but the reason that the U.S. dominated manufacturing during the late 40s, 50s, and into the 60s was that WWII was not fought on our soil. We rebuilt Germany and Japan, in part, to create an export market for our manufactured goods.

However, Trump's projected $1.2 trillion deficit budget, his amnesty plan for 1.8 million illegal aliens, and his gun control initiatives are not conservative negotiating positions. If you want to continue to blame liberals for what ails this country, you might want to reserve some criticism for the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

These tariffs make no sense to me. China is U.S. Enemy #1, IMO. Only 2 percent of the steel used in this country is imported from China. If Trump was going to punish the bad actors in the global economy and raise prices for American consumers, then he should have wielded a big economic stick at China - not at Canada and the EU.


It remains to be seen whether Canada would really be included.

It is not my intention to come on here and try to act like an economist and I understand all about tariffs. I do trust Laffer and Young, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Kudlow. Laffer said, subsequent to 'The Hill' article in question, that he believes Trump may be using the real threat of tariffs to strengthen our negotiating position on NAFTA. Laffer sees NAFTA as a drag on our economy, because absent normal trade controls based on competition, they have become fat on our substance, and lazy and complacent on NAFTA's guarantees.


I posted the picture of the now idled Armco Steel Mill just to make a point. ALL of the diverse industry that once flourished along the Ohio River valley for the 100 mile or so stretch of which I am familiar, are now closed. I watched the cascading calamity begin to go down soon after the signing of NAFTA. In referencing that particular situation a couple of days ago, Art Laffer said all NAFTA did was create a trade safety net for Canada and Mexico. No matter what goes wrong for them, America is on the financial hook. Once set in motion, terms of the agreement guaranteed that the only entity that could lose money in most foreseeable pitfalls of governed trade, is the US. Consequently we have transferred much wealth to those two countries since signing NAFTA. It is possible that in the minds of some, tariffs though not the best option, may nonetheless still be a preferable last ditch fall back if the other negotiations fail.

Reagan (or his advisors) supposedly came up with the forerunning ideas for what would eventually become NAFTA, back in the early 80's. It is said that if H W Bush had been reelected, a finalized NAFTA would have never been signed. At any rate the original vote went down party lines with no Democrats voting for the bill as signed between H. W. and Mexico. But Bill Clinton was elected, and running against what seemed to be the wishes of his own party, he was all hair-on-fire to get the thing through. Go figure. No matter how we got here or whose fault it is, the plants and mills are gone, as are the jobs. We might not, maybe probably won't, get all the jobs back. But even splitting the odds down the middle for a level playing field would be a tremendous victory for the trades. And we need that element for our society to remain relevant if you ask me.

Following the example and advice of Lyndon Baines Johnson when he advocated for Americans to subsidize the poor through the Great Society Initiative, and to paraphrase what Mark Levin says; America "bought" the world's financial problems. We give money to anybody who can, at least for the short term, be bought. And that is a very replete list.

Every week, if not every day, somebody somewhere comes up with a charge or a case for why Trump will surely fail. It's been ridiculous. To date, the thick smoke of controversy has been completely unwarranted. The establishment and the Deepstate STILL deny 'we the people' the government we elected, by not allowing the administration to properly staff agencies and bureaus. Cabinet changes are nearly out of the question owing to a confirmation process in which it is guaranteed that Dems will do everything possible to deny outright, or drag confirmations out so long that the effect of which is that we are still languishing under Obama administration loyalists. Trump ain't the bad guy here. IF the entrenched establishment would work with him, even if only on a cooperation level of say 25%, things would be waaay better. Instead he's having to fight in effect, something that looks like a coup de etat. The Chinese dictator isn't stupid. He knows as does North Korea, Russia and Iran, that American opposition to their global aspirations will rise and fall with this administration and more particularly the midterms of 2018. Resistance Dems and establishment Republicans should be so proud of themselves.
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:05 PM
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US Steel CEO: We're reopening an idled plant and bringing back 500 jobs due to Trump tariffs;

http://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/07/us-st...p-tariffs.html


And it will go on and on and on....
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:29 AM
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Trump is already talking about exempting countries like Canada and Mexico from the tariffs. Once again, Trump's tough talk followed immediately by contradictory gives the impression of incompetence. Most of this country's idle steel mills use traditional blast furnaces with coke. Most steel is produced in smaller specialty mills using electric arc furnaces.

When the federal government enacts legislation and regulations to pick winners and losers in the economy, the law of unintended consequences also takes effect.

Trump should have limited his tinkering with the economy to cutting taxes and regulations. Selective imposition of tariffs will cost more jobs than it will create.
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Old 03-08-2018, 06:56 AM
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Good news for the coal/coke industry too, then.....Killing 2 birds with one stone.

"Negotiating 101"...Make em think you're just crazy enough to do it.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:01 AM
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Which means more trucks on the road. More tires being sold to go on those trucks. More pop and snacks being sold by workers stopping at the C store on their way to work.....More railroad workers working to haul that coal. More railroad workers needed to haul that finished steel. Means more bass boats being sold..Means more people needed to fix those bass boats when they tear up. Means more 4 wheelers being sold at the local motorcycle shop. Which means more people needed to fix em when they tear up....Means stores like the Hometown IGA has a chance to keep their doors open...Yada , yada, yada.


That's how you build an economy.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:16 AM
Bob Seger Bob Seger is offline
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Personally I don't care if they rub two sticks together and build a campfire to melt iron ore. just as long.......

Put people that want to work, back to work. Screw the world. We are all their sugar daddy to begin with. I don't care what they think, I don't care what they do....Do whatever it takes, however it takes. They need our yankee dollars way more than we need them. We built these country's economys by sacrificing our own.
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  #19  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Seger View Post
Personally I don't care if they rub two sticks together and build a campfire to melt iron ore. just as long.......

Put people that want to work, back to work. Screw the world. We are all their sugar daddy to begin with. I don't care what they think, I don't care what they do....Do whatever it takes, however it takes. They need our yankee dollars way more than we need them. We built these our countries economy's sacrificing our own.


I keep hearing the example of cheap iphones from China. According to going wisdom, if Apple were to bring their phone manufacturing operations back to the USA we'd all be hurting, because the cost per phone would go from 500 dollars to 2,500 dollars. I got a news flash for them, not for me. I'll go with a cheap ol flip phone or do without. I spend more for cell phones anymore than I used to pay for my house payment anyway.

Competition drives the cost on consumer goods. It is likely that Apple moved iphone production to China so that they could compete more effectively with Samsung and other phone companies. That way, they make a lot more money on each phone to be sure. At any rate, they don't make their phones in China as a favor to the consumer, so that we can all have 'relatively?' cheap cell phones. Can you imagine how badly maligned one of the founders would be if he lived in our time rather than in the days of the American Revolution? He'd be spit on if he walked down the street. But this is the mentality of liberals and 'ap' happy millennials who think supper means the drive-thru at McDonald's, and who live for the most part in their parent's basement and have a particular osteitis called text-neck.

I'm with you Bob, America's kneejerk reaction to every challenge these days, seems only to be to shrink back like snowflakes and whine about not rocking the boat. No wonder many of the women in the Congress seem to have more courage than pencil necked men like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. At least the President is man enough to take a stand for what he genuinely believes. Which of course is what separated him from the entirety of DC elites in the first place when he had the courage to call out the idiocy of political correctness long BEFORE he even got elected.
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:06 PM
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Making a major policy announcement like imposing stiffer tariffs on our trading partners on one day and then announcing that some countries may be exempted from the tariffs within two days, in response to widespread criticism does not make Trump appear tough. In fact, it makes him look weak.

Also, announcing that the U.S. will be working with China to reduce our trade deficit by ONE billion dollars on Twitter only reenforces that image. A one billion dollar reduction in our trade deficit with China would be a reduction of about 0.30%. At that rate, our trade with China will be balanced in only three centuries.

After everybody not named Trump realized how ridiculous his tweet was, his staff scampered out to explain that Trump meant to tweet $100 billion. I hope that the next POTUS will have sense enough not too concerned foreign policy on Twitter.
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:28 PM
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^^ As an employer, if I want to discipline an employee who has sloppy work habits, comes in late all the time and generally takes advantage of the situation, I call him in over these infractions and let him see that I have started a file. I have him sign at the bottom of the various pages in which I have documented his bad behavior.

In taking these actions I saw on many occasions, the habits of the employee in question take a notable turn for the better. And their habits stayed that way. Same thing with these tariffs. Countries used to playing in the margins of already bad trade agreements have been summarily called to the office. In short and as we speak, President Trump has the attention of the entire world. He has prefaced his intent to renegotiate our trade situation with warnings for the past year. And now he is ready to drop the hammer on those persisting to demand the unreasonable continuation of detrimental trade agreements. Or, they can snap out of it and do the right thing for us as well as themselves. Pretty straightforward approach if you ask me.

Globalists don't care who makes steel, they will make their money no matter who does it. So, they're going to lurch violently when the status quo is altered. But as for those guys who used to make steel in the US? While their kids play in the shadows of now defunct mills and plants, they're still sitting at the house worrying how in the world those kids will ever make a living. And they're worrying how they will feed and clothe and provide the necessary medical care for them. Not to mention how long it might be before they are kicked to the curb by the financial institution holding their faltering mortgage. All Trump is saying is let's let our own people make the money for making the steel. And I agree with him and frankly, that is the element to all of this which is missing from your argument. This is another example of a fulfilled campaign promise by DJT.

As to Trump's tweet? Anybody can make a typo. Heck, you've even done it.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TheRealThing View Post
^^ As an employer, if I want to discipline an employee who has sloppy work habits, comes in late all the time and generally takes advantage of the situation, I call him in over these infractions and let him see that I have started a file. I have him sign at the bottom of the various pages in which I have documented his bad behavior.

In taking these actions I saw on many occasions, the habits of the employee in question take a notable turn for the better. And their habits stayed that way. Same thing with these tariffs. Countries used to playing in the margins of already bad trade agreements have been summarily called to the office. In short and as we speak, President Trump has the attention of the entire world. He has prefaced his intent to renegotiate our trade situation with warnings for the past year. And now he is ready to drop the hammer on those persisting to demand the unreasonable continuation of detrimental trade agreements. Or, they can snap out of it and do the right thing for us as well as themselves. Pretty straightforward approach if you ask me.

Globalists don't care who makes steel, they will make their money no matter who does it. So, they're going to lurch violently when the status quo is altered. But as for those guys who used to make steel in the US? While their kids play in the shadows of now defunct mills and plants, they're still sitting at the house worrying how in the world those kids will ever make a living. And they're worrying how they will feed and clothe and provide the necessary medical care for them. Not to mention how long it might be before they are kicked to the curb by the financial institution holding their faltering mortgage. All Trump is saying is let's let our own people make the money for making the steel. And I agree with him and frankly, that is the element to all of this which is missing from your argument. This is another example of a fulfilled campaign promise by DJT.

As to Trump's tweet? Anybody can make a typo. Heck, you've even done it.
Tariffs have their place, TRT. China uses slave labor, systematically steals our intellectual property, and costs American companies billions by ignoring patents and counterfeiting popular name brand products. Why do you think that Trump did not choose to target China with steep tariffs, as he promised to do on the campaign trail? If any country in the world deserves American retaliatory actions over unfair trade practices, it is China.

I think that Trump understands that if he starts a trade war with China, it will cost him any chance and a second term and will cost Republicans control of Congress. Americans are addicted to cheap cell phones and shelves loaded with cheap Chinese goods. Nearly all Americans will claim to be appalled at China's use of child and slave labor, but relatively few would be happy to pay much higher prices for consumer products to punish China for its labor and trade practices.

Compared to the silky smooth roll out of Trump's tax reforms, the announcement of the tariffs has been handled very poorly, IMO. Decisions about which countries would be targeted and which would be exempted should have been made before the announcement, not as an afterthought.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:21 PM
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Perhaps because we owe China 100 trillion dollars?
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:33 PM
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Hoot I like you but now you're in the globalist complainer camp who doesn't offer any solutions. People who make their living from the government (oops, my bad, the taxpayers) stick out like a sore thumb and you know what they are going to say before they ever say it. But what they never offer is solutions. So Hoot, what is your solution to our HUUUUUGE trade imbalance, especially with China? Don't dance around an answer, either offer your solution or go with the standard politician response, it's not a problem/it's the "new normal."
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jetpilot View Post
Hoot I like you but now you're in the globalist complainer camp who doesn't offer any solutions. People who make their living from the government (oops, my bad, the taxpayers) stick out like a sore thumb and you know what they are going to say before they ever say it. But what they never offer is solutions. So Hoot, what is your solution to our HUUUUUGE trade imbalance, especially with China? Don't dance around an answer, either offer your solution or go with the standard politician response, it's not a problem/it's the "new normal."
I'm not going to get into an exchange of personal insults with you, JP. You always revert to them when people disagree with you in this forum. I already stated that tariffs have their place and China deserves retaliation if any country does. It won't happen because politicians, including Trump, know that a trade war with China would likely result in the loss of their jobs.

For somebody who rails against government workers, you sure seem comfortable having Trump buying political support with other people's money. I remember a time when Obama's trillion dollar deficits were condemned by every conservative on this site. Ditto for amnesty for illegal aliens.

Now that a former liberal Democrat is engaged in the same liberal behavior that Obama favored, while calling himself a Republican, you are bashing conservatives for objecting the very things for which you condemned Obama. I am amused, but not surprised at the inconsistency.

I am a conservative and will remain so, no matter what Trump does. I don't regret voting for Trump but he is far from perfect.
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoot Gibson View Post
I'm not going to get into an exchange of personal insults with you, JP. You always revert to them when people disagree with you in this forum. I already stated that tariffs have their place and China deserves retaliation if any country does. It won't happen because politicians, including Trump, know that a trade war with China would likely result in the loss of their jobs.

For somebody who rails against government workers, you sure seem comfortable having Trump buying political support with other people's money. I remember a time when Obama's trillion dollar deficits were condemned by every conservative on this site. Ditto for amnesty for illegal aliens.

Now that a former liberal Democrat is engaged in the same liberal behavior that Obama favored, while calling himself a Republican, you are bashing conservatives for objecting the very things for which you condemned Obama. I am amused, but not surprised at the inconsistency.

I am a conservative and will remain so, no matter what Trump does. I don't regret voting for Trump but he is far from perfect.
Thanks for proving my point. Not even a stab at a stab at a solution...
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoot Gibson View Post
Tariffs have their place, TRT. China uses slave labor, systematically steals our intellectual property, and costs American companies billions by ignoring patents and counterfeiting popular name brand products. Why do you think that Trump did not choose to target China with steep tariffs, as he promised to do on the campaign trail? If any country in the world deserves American retaliatory actions over unfair trade practices, it is China.

I think that Trump understands that if he starts a trade war with China, it will cost him any chance and a second term and will cost Republicans control of Congress. Americans are addicted to cheap cell phones and shelves loaded with cheap Chinese goods. Nearly all Americans will claim to be appalled at China's use of child and slave labor, but relatively few would be happy to pay much higher prices for consumer products to punish China for its labor and trade practices.

Compared to the silky smooth roll out of Trump's tax reforms, the announcement of the tariffs has been handled very poorly, IMO. Decisions about which countries would be targeted and which would be exempted should have been made before the announcement, not as an afterthought.



Was the tax rollout silky because it dealt only with the American people? The tariff apparatus which deals with a number of nations, many of whom having leaders with a sense of arrogance and even entitlement, was put in place to serve the same purpose as an employee disciplinary file. As in that case, eventual termination is up to the substandard employee. After all, the standards are already set and since it was his own choices that brought about the threat of termination, so too can his choices cement his position.

But America cannot negotiate with people who're used to laughing all the way to the bank, while our own leaders shrank back like snowflakes at the slightest sign of aggression or bravado. We let the situation get so far out of hand that it was our own timidity and lethargy which guaranteed us, that righting the ship would be painful. Another point I keep hearing is that Trump will **** everybody else off and they will retaliate. I believe this has to be done now because in putting things off even further things can only get worse as we just continue the slide. So I say bring it. We fly over middle America in more ways than one. Trump's point is that nobody gives a flip about a middle class that was once the backbone of America, to instead become an emaciated ghost of it's former self. How did that happen? Barack Obama and his fundamental transformation and redistribution of wealth. For example, in 1996 the labor participation rate was 83.8%, now it's 62.7%. And most home owners don't have enough equity left to do any more refi's. They're in hock up to their eyebrows.

Further, while cushy state retirement plans continue to rob tax payers of basics such as decent roads, most private pension plans are recovering from crisis status. But only thanks to a resurging stock market, increased wages and hundreds of thousands of new jobs each quarter. But the work is just started and frankly, where were all these economic geniuses who BTW backed Barack Obama's ridiculousness, when we were in free fall over the last 16 years? For my part unless or until I see actual mistakes come to fruition, I am content to let the man work.
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Old 03-08-2018, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jetpilot View Post
Thanks for proving my point. Not even a stab at a stab at a solution...
You never had a point. There is no magic bullet to eliminate a trade deficit that has been decades in the making.

Trump's tax reforms and rollback of regulations will make American companies more competitive - if he does not continue undercut his own program through tax hikes (increasing the federal excise tax on fuel), amnesty for illegals, big budget deficits, and tariffs. That is my solution but I don't recall ever reading your's. My guess is that it consists of cheerleading Trump's every action and personally attacking anybody who dares criticize him. Am I close?
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Old 03-08-2018, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TheRealThing View Post
Was the tax rollout silky because it dealt only with the American people? The tariff apparatus which deals with a number of nations, many of whom having leaders with a sense of arrogance and even entitlement, was put in place to serve the same purpose as an employee disciplinary file. As in that case, eventual termination is up to the substandard employee. After all, the standards are already set and since it was his own choices that brought about the threat of termination, so too can his choices cement his position.

But America cannot negotiate with people who're used to laughing all the way to the bank, while our own leaders shrank back like snowflakes at the slightest sign of aggression or bravado. We let the situation get so far out of hand that it was our own timidity and lethargy which guaranteed us, that righting the ship would be painful. Another point I keep hearing is that Trump will **** everybody else off and they will retaliate. I believe this has to be done now because in putting things off even further things can only get worse as we just continue the slide. So I say bring it. We fly over middle America in more ways than one. Trump's point is that nobody gives a flip about a middle class that was once the backbone of America, to instead become an emaciated ghost of it's former self. How did that happen? Barack Obama and his fundamental transformation and redistribution of wealth. For example, in 1996 the labor participation rate was 83.8%, now it's 62.7%. And most home owners don't have enough equity left to do any more refi's. They're in hock up to their eyebrows.

Further, while cushy state retirement plans continue to rob tax payers of basics such as decent roads, most private pension plans are recovering from crisis status. But only thanks to a resurging stock market, increased wages and hundreds of thousands of new jobs each quarter. But the work is just started and frankly, where were all these economic geniuses when we were in free fall over the last 16 years? For my part unless or until I see actual mistakes come to fruition, I am content to let the man work.
Bingo. Head and shoulders above the corrupt, feckless and incompetent politicians from both parties we have grown to loathe, most of whom have never signed a paycheck and have gotten rich on the backs of taxpayers.
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Old 03-08-2018, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoot Gibson View Post
You never had a point. There is no magic bullet to eliminate a trade deficit that has been decades in the making.

Trump's tax reforms and rollback of regulations will make American companies more competitive - if he does not continue undercut his own program through tax hikes (increasing the federal excise tax on fuel), amnesty for illegals, big budget deficits, and tariffs. That is my solution but I don't recall ever reading your's. My guess is that it consists of cheerleading Trump's every action and personally attacking anybody who dares criticize him. Am I close?
And there it is folks, code for "Get used to it, it's the new normal." Sounds like something out of an Obama speech.
Still not a stab at a stab at a solution.
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