[Stardust]

No need for the insults, SD. I assure you that I am somewhat educated and my math skills are certainly good enough to read a stat line. All you have offered is an opinion because there are no stats available to you to support your position. It is akin to a lawyer resorting to insults and theatrics when he knows he is defending a guilty client. :biggrin:

According to Wilt, his average dropped after his first 7 seasons because his coaches asked him to shoot less and involve his teammates more, which he did. Obviously, with a shooting percentage of nearly 73% in his final season, if he had wanted to score more (or had his coach wanted him to), he could have done so. The bottom line is that once Wilt was surrounded by some decent players, he began passing the ball more and shooting less.

What Wilt did not do was let himself get out of shape to the point his rebounding numbers plummeted the way that Shaq's have (although Shaq was never in Chamberlain's class as a rebounder).

What you don't get about international basketball is that those teams are still much less athletic than NBA teams are. How many international players who are high draft picks are extremely athletic? Very few. They are prized by NBA teams because they are so often more polished skill-wise and come from more team-oriented systems than American college players. In other words, the international players have much in common with NBA stars of the 60s and 70s.

Hoot, you are insulting your ownself when you make comments about how the US dominated International Basketball of the 60's and did not acknowlege that the game is so much better today than it ever was. And in 20 years, it will be better than it ever was today. You cannot feasibly make comparisons of players from era's, it is not possible - EVER. A person would be completely out of their mind to think an NBA player would ever put up the single season numbers that Wilt did, that's just ludicrous to even acknowledge. International Players were not even playing in the 60's. The african nations did not even play the game then. The European nations did not cultivate Basketball players until the 70's. The US created the game, thus they had decades over any of the other countries.

Bottom-line, stats against inferior athletes by a player ahead of his time does not translate to today. It's an easy comparison about how much better athletes are today. Jesse Owens was the greatest athlete of his time. Today he would lose in High School track events! Wilt was the greatest player of his era. He would never put up those numbers today!

[Hoot Gibson]

Hoot, you are insulting your ownself when you make comments about how the US dominated International Basketball of the 60's and did not acknowlege that the game is so much better today than it ever was. And in 20 years, it will be better than it ever was today. You cannot feasibly make comparisons of players from era's, it is not possible - EVER. A person would be completely out of their mind to think an NBA player would ever put up the single season numbers that Wilt did, that's just ludicrous to even acknowledge. International Players were not even playing in the 60's. The african nations did not even play the game then. The European nations did not cultivate Basketball players until the 70's. The US created the game, thus they had decades over any of the other countries.

Bottom-line, stats against inferior athletes by a player ahead of his time does not translate to today. It's an easy comparison about how much better athletes are today. Jesse Owens was the greatest athlete of his time. Today he would lose in High School track events! Wilt was the greatest player of his era. He would never put up those numbers today!

You, IMO, have really not addressed any of the points that I have made. You have not acknowledged that today's players rely more on athletic ability and less on fundamental basketball skills than players of Wilt's era.

Now, to distract attention away from your weak arguments against Chamberlains dominance of the game, you are even dragging Jesse Owens into the argument by saying he would not even win a high school track meet today.

I assume that you believe today's athletes are superior, not because of some genetic superiority, but because of better nutrition, better training methods, and better training facilities.

Here is what I assume. I assume that if Jesse Owens had been born 25 years ago, he would still have become one of the best athletes in the world. Maybe he would be an inch or two taller, stronger, and faster but he would still be Jesse Owens. OTOH, maybe Owens would have become addicted to video games, gotten fat, and been run over by a slow moving bus. Today's athletes are not born better - they are made better through better food and modern technology.

Your weak denials of the pure dominance that Wilt Chamberlain had over NBA competition reminds me of some fans of great high school programs' mistaken belief that their schools' teams magically breeds superior athletes. Every great team is one bad hire away from mediocrity. Unless they recruit, schools of similar size have students who were born with similar athletic ability. It is the learned skills, confidence, and determination that separates teams from mediocrity.

What I am saying has always been true. Maybe you recall 6'4" power forward Charles Barkley grabbing 33 rebounds in a game in his 12th NBA season? Superior athleticism or superior skill and work ethic? I remember watching Barkley snare over 20 rebounds in a playoff game when he literally could not jump because of an injured leg.

If a 6-4 power forward like Barkley could post better rebounding stats over the course of his career than Shaq has, I am puzzled as to why you believe that 7-1 Wilt Chamberlain, who posted more rebounds per game both in his rookie year and in his final season than Shaq would be a less dominant player in today's NBA than Shaq. Your argument makes no sense, which is why you cannot back it up with any facts.

[Stardust]

^ You are kidding? What facts can you PROVE that Wilt could dominate against 3 seven footers in a line-up like we see today? Show me your proof that Will could dominate. What have you done to prove anything? You are arguing your point just as I and you have done nothing that shows facts or proof that he could do it today, no different than I. But the truth is that athletes are better today, than they have ever been before. As for today's players, I think a blind rocket-scientist could see that ahtletes are tremendously more athletic than ever before. As for skill, that is so elemental that the game fundamentally has progressed further than ever. You my friend have confused what athletecism has done to fundamentals. I guess you are suggesting that a set-shot is more fundamental than a jumpshot. Did you not watch basketball at the advent of the 3-point line. Shooters of today are far superior than at anytime ever. You have 7 footers who are not just athletes, but can dribble like guards. You never saw that in the 60's! Dribbling is no longer an art that Cousy, Oscar and Pistol were one of a kind. Now 6-9 point guards the same things. We have High School guards that can do the same thing with the ball that Pistol Pete did. Yes, the game is tremendously more fundamental than it was in the set-shot day. Everyone thinks that the art-form of the 15 footer is gone. That's not true, defenders are so athletic and fundamentally sound that uncontested shots cannot be taken from that distance any longer. Skill, not even an argument that the game is more skilled than ever.

Wilts best skill was his passing ability. But again, we have several great passers, trying to pass against an athlete that is tremendously better than the athletes that an athletic 7-0 ahead of his time was able to do!

They only proof you can show me is:

1. He at 35 was still a peak athlete
2. In his latter days his numbers dropped dramatically, to numbers no better than the big men of today
3. You cannot compare Wilts athleticism would be superior to today's atheltes, because he would have gotten no more advantage than athletes of today. Todays athletes get the exact same training and opportunity
4. Wilt was a super athlete, but no more super than Dwight Howard. Wilt had a bigger body than anyone in his day, but not bigger than Shaq in his peak day.
5. Skill? Are you suggesting that Wilt was a fundamentally skilled athlete? Are you suggesting that Wilt could hit a 15' jumper? Are you suggesting Wilt could rebound and dribble the length of the court? Wilt jumped over 6-9 guys, Wilt did not put moves on anyone.

LOL, Wilt was great, but Wilt would not average 50 points and 30 rebounds in todays game. Like I said, What a Hoot:biggrin:

[Hoot Gibson]

^ You are kidding? What facts can you PROVE that Wilt could dominate against 3 seven footers in a line-up like we see today? Show me your proof that Will could dominate. What have you done to prove anything? You are arguing your point just as I and you have done nothing that shows facts or proof that he could do it today, no different than I. But the truth is that athletes are better today, than they have ever been before. As for today's players, I think a blind rocket-scientist could see that ahtletes are tremendously more athletic than ever before. As for skill, that is so elemental that the game fundamentally has progressed further than ever. You my friend have confused what athletecism has done to fundamentals. I guess you are suggesting that a set-shot is more fundamental than a jumpshot. Did you not watch basketball at the advent of the 3-point line. Shooters of today are far superior than at anytime ever. You have 7 footers who are not just athletes, but can dribble like guards. You never saw that in the 60's! Dribbling is no longer an art that Cousy, Oscar and Pistol were one of a kind. Now 6-9 point guards the same things. We have High School guards that can do the same thing with the ball that Pistol Pete did. Yes, the game is tremendously more fundamental than it was in the set-shot day. Everyone thinks that the art-form of the 15 footer is gone. That's not true, defenders are so athletic and fundamentally sound that uncontested shots cannot be taken from that distance any longer. Skill, not even an argument that the game is more skilled than ever.

Wilts best skill was his passing ability. But again, we have several great passers, trying to pass against an athlete that is tremendously better than the athletes that an athletic 7-0 ahead of his time was able to do!

They only proof you can show me is:

1. He at 35 was still a peak athlete
2. In his latter days his numbers dropped dramatically, to numbers no better than the big men of today
3. You cannot compare Wilts athleticism would be superior to today's atheltes, because he would have gotten no more advantage than athletes of today. Todays athletes get the exact same training and opportunity
4. Wilt was a super athlete, but no more super than Dwight Howard. Wilt had a bigger body than anyone in his day, but not bigger than Shaq in his peak day.
5. Skill? Are you suggesting that Wilt was a fundamentally skilled athlete? Are you suggesting that Wilt could hit a 15' jumper? Are you suggesting Wilt could rebound and dribble the length of the court? Wilt jumped over 6-9 guys, Wilt did not put moves on anyone.

LOL, Wilt was great, but Wilt would not average 50 points and 30 rebounds in todays game. Like I said, What a Hoot:biggrin:

More of the same. As for the bolded, :please: Where are these high schoolers who possess the same ball handling skills as Pete Maravich? And...Chamberlain did not play in the set shot era.

If it is so tough for players to dominate inside today (or in the recent past), then how do you explain a 6-4 power forward like Charles Barkley having better career rebounding numbers than Shaq? That fact seems to be at odds with your claim and you are not addressing it at all.

If it is so difficult to hit mid range jumpshots because of all of the big, superior athletes of today, then how do you explain Steve Nash's ability to score in the lane? He is not big. He is not fast. He does not jump very well. Yet he scores over, around, and under those big fellas that you think would neutralize a Wilt Chamberlain. How do you explain how a fairly non-athletic Nash ended up with two MVPs, while the man you say is more "dominate" than Wilt Chamberlain has only been able to claim one of them?

The NBA players of today are not nearly as invincible as you seem to believe. Less athletic players like Larry Bird and Steve Nash; and undersized players like Charles Barkley became stars because they were fundamentally sound players competing in a league of athletes who get by mostly on athleticism. Pick nearly any successful international player who entered the NBA and you will find somebody who is less athletic than most of the players drafted below him.

I am dying to see some examples of high school kids as skilled as Maravich, preferably some video clips of them making NBA defenders look silly. :lmao:[/QUOTE]

[Bob Seger]

^ You are kidding? What facts can you PROVE that Wilt could dominate against 3 seven footers in a line-up like we see today? Show me your proof that Will could dominate. What have you done to prove anything? You are arguing your point just as I and you have done nothing that shows facts or proof that he could do it today, no different than I. But the truth is that athletes are better today, than they have ever been before. As for today's players, I think a blind rocket-scientist could see that ahtletes are tremendously more athletic than ever before. As for skill, that is so elemental that the game fundamentally has progressed further than ever. You my friend have confused what athletecism has done to fundamentals. I guess you are suggesting that a set-shot is more fundamental than a jumpshot. Did you not watch basketball at the advent of the 3-point line. Shooters of today are far superior than at anytime ever. You have 7 footers who are not just athletes, but can dribble like guards. You never saw that in the 60's! Dribbling is no longer an art that Cousy, Oscar and Pistol were one of a kind. Now 6-9 point guards the same things. [B]We have High School guards that can do the same thing with the ball that Pistol Pete did.[/B] Yes, the game is tremendously more fundamental than it was in the set-shot day. Everyone thinks that the art-form of the 15 footer is gone. That's not true, defenders are so athletic and fundamentally sound that uncontested shots cannot be taken from that distance any longer. Skill, not even an argument that the game is more skilled than ever.

Wilts best skill was his passing ability. But again, we have several great passers, trying to pass against an athlete that is tremendously better than the athletes that an athletic 7-0 ahead of his time was able to do!

They only proof you can show me is:

1. He at 35 was still a peak athlete
2. In his latter days his numbers dropped dramatically, to numbers no better than the big men of today
3. You cannot compare Wilts athleticism would be superior to today's atheltes, because he would have gotten no more advantage than athletes of today. Todays athletes get the exact same training and opportunity
4. Wilt was a super athlete, but no more super than Dwight Howard. Wilt had a bigger body than anyone in his day, but not bigger than Shaq in his peak day.
5. Skill? Are you suggesting that Wilt was a fundamentally skilled athlete? Are you suggesting that Wilt could hit a 15' jumper? Are you suggesting Wilt could rebound and dribble the length of the court? Wilt jumped over 6-9 guys, Wilt did not put moves on anyone.

LOL, Wilt was great, but Wilt would not average 50 points and 30 rebounds in todays game. Like I said, What a Hoot:biggrin:

Stardust, you are usually pretty well right on most things you post, but I have to be a little blunt on this one. You dont have one earthly idea of what you just posted. High schoolers are only interested in one thing and that is the Dunk. For the most part they cannot shoot, pass, or dribble and are not interested in ever learning to do so.


Considerably more fundamental today? Sheesh, it's the the exact opposite. There are no fundamentals anymore. Dribble drive offense... perfect example. I will give you that todays player is probably more athletic, but Larry Bird showed everyone that athleticism plays second fiddle to knowlege of the game and being fundamentally sound.


As far as Wilt is concerned, I saw Wilt time and time again humiliate Alcindor/Jabbar even while he was in his prime and Chamberlain was far into his career decline. Now I guess your now going to say that Jabbar could not compete with these modern guys either? That would be the equivalent to your post on Maravich. Maravich is the greatest shooter/passer/dribbler combo player that has ever played the game.... PERIOD. It's not even close.

By the way, the art of the 15 footer is dead because it will never make ESPN's top 10 plays. That's the real reason.

I have never taken you as a modern day uneducated kid, and I usually repect about everything you post, but man you have greatly embarrassed yourself with this one.


Did you ever actually watch Maravich or Chamberlain either one play? What next? Jerry West was over-rated?

[Bob Seger]

Hoot, you are insulting your ownself when you make comments about how the US dominated International Basketball of the 60's and did not acknowlege that the game is so much better today than it ever was. And in 20 years, it will be better than it ever was today. You cannot feasibly make comparisons of players from era's, it is not possible - EVER. A person would be completely out of their mind to think an NBA player would ever put up the single season numbers that Wilt did, that's just ludicrous to even acknowledge. International Players were not even playing in the 60's. The african nations did not even play the game then. The European nations did not cultivate Basketball players until the 70's. The US created the game, thus they had decades over any of the other countries.

Bottom-line, stats against inferior athletes by a player ahead of his time does not translate to today. It's an easy comparison about how much better athletes are today. Jesse Owens was the greatest athlete of his time. Today he would lose in High School track events! Wilt was the greatest player of his era. He would never put up those numbers today!

All you saying is that the game is better because a player can jump higher and they can DUNK better. The problem with today's game is that is just plain and purely STINKS. My perspective on the game 20 years from now? I am guessing that it will STINK even more than it does right now.


Atheticism does not translate into "more skilled" .

[crazytaxidriver]

I personally hate the NBA today. It's like watching a pickup game. I started watching the NBA in the late 80's to thelate 90's. So for me that was the prime. It's gradually gone downhill with teams scoring around the 120 to 150 mark. I used to think those were ea sports numbers. The game just isn't exciting at all anymore. Lebron and Kobe are awesome athletes and would probably dominate if they were playing 20 years ago or more but at the same time I dot think they would average what they do now based on the fact that teams played defense then too

[zaga_fan]

Stardust, you are usually pretty well right on most things you post, but I have to be a little blunt on this one. You dont have one earthly idea of what you just posted. High schoolers are only interested in one thing and that is the Dunk. For the most part they cannot shoot, pass, or dribble and are not interested in ever learning to do so.


Considerably more fundamental today? Sheesh, it's the the exact opposite. There are no fundamentals anymore. Dribble drive offense... perfect example. I will give you that todays player is probably more athletic, but Larry Bird showed everyone that athleticism plays second fiddle to knowlege of the game and being fundamentally sound.


As far as Wilt is concerned, I saw Wilt time and time again humiliate Alcindor/Jabbar even while he was in his prime and Chamberlain was far into his career decline. Now I guess your now going to say that Jabbar could not compete with these modern guys either? That would be the equivalent to your post on Maravich. Maravich is the greatest shooter/passer/dribbler combo player that has ever played the game.... PERIOD. It's not even close.

By the way, the art of the 15 footer is dead because it will never make ESPN's top 10 plays. That's the real reason.

I have never taken you as a modern day uneducated kid, and I usually repect about everything you post, but man you have greatly embarrassed yourself with this one.


Did you ever actually watch Maravich or Chamberlain either one play? What next? Jerry West was over-rated?

That's a good one
lol