[launchpad4]

....I can't stand democrats. So close-minded and set in their ways. You guys don't even want to stay on topic. This thread is about John McCain, not Bush. Get over yourselves, I'm sorry you guys have two horrible candidates running that don't have a chance against McCain, but it's your own faults.

I'll amen that!!

:Clap:

[Coach_Owens87]

....I can't stand democrats. So close-minded and set in their ways. You guys don't even want to stay on topic. This thread is about John McCain, not Bush. Get over yourselves, I'm sorry you guys have two horrible candidates running that don't have a chance against McCain, but it's your own faults.

You seem to be a very rude person, I can stand republicans, I get along with most people, but I just dont agree with 95% of what modern day republicans stand for.

lol, close minded. Close minded to me is when someone keeps trying the same thing over and over, without excepting help or input from other people, which is exactly what has happened over the last 8 years. Go look up "liberal" in the dictionary, the very definition of the word is "open minded".

Now I don't mind staying on topic, and I have tried to, the point about tax cuts is that McCain supports the bush tax cuts, which are horribly flawed, and have had disastrous results.

And I do think Obama has a chance against insane McCain, if you would stop watching Fox News you would see that there is more to Obama than reverend wright, and that a lot of people support him.

Why dont you stop making silly attacks and mention the reasons why you support McCain.

[sherman14]

I'll amen that!!

:Clap:

I'll Amen it to. Hillary or Obama have no chance against John McCain.

[More Cowbell]

Look at these stats and then tell me that Bush's tax cuts only helped the RICH:

[B]Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008[/B]
[B]Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250

Are these tax cuts for wealthy??? Someone making 30 grand is RICH??? Where did I miss this memo?!?

Both democratic candidates will return to the higher tax rates

It is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If Obama or Hillary are elected, they both say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen. This is like the movie The Sting with Paul Newman; you scam somebody out of some money and they don't even know what happened.
[/B]

Excellent post, and a great illustration of how the tax cuts have helped the middle class.

I still don't see how someone can see these statistics and say that the tax cuts have placed more of a tax burden on the lower and middle classes. Are they even looking at the numbers? Probably not, just too busy thinking about some other wasteful government program that they can use to justify taking away more of my money. If they want to pay higher taxes, let them go ahead, but they need to get their hands out of my pocket.

And yes, of course the tax cuts helped the rich, an across-the-board cut helps everybody. No one is saying it didn't help them. But to say it didn't help the middle class is being biased and partisan.

[Coach_Owens87]

Excellent post, and a great illustration of how the tax cuts have helped the middle class.

I still don't see how someone can see these statistics and say that the tax cuts have placed more of a tax burden on the lower and middle classes. Are they even looking at the numbers? Probably not, just too busy thinking about some other wasteful government program that they can use to justify taking away more of my money. If they want to pay higher taxes, let them go ahead, but they need to get their hands out of my pocket.

And yes, of course the tax cuts helped the rich, an across-the-board cut helps everybody. No one is saying it didn't help them. But to say it didn't help the middle class is being biased and partisan.

They see it because we had to BORROW money to initiate these cuts, which has made the national deficit increase dramatically, and eventually we will have to pay it back, and the biggest burden of that will be on the lower and middle income levels in this country.

A congressional study discovered that the bush tax cuts did in fact favor the wealthy.

Here is a small excerpt from a report on that study.

President Bush's tax cuts since 2001 have shifted more of the tax burden from the nation's rich to middle-class families, according to a study released Friday by the Congressional Budget Office.

The tax rate declined across all income levels — but more so in the top brackets, the report said.

The study found that the effective tax rate for the top 1 percent of taxpayers dropped from 33 percent in 2001 to 26.7 percent this year, a decline of 19 percent. The middle 20 percent of taxpayers saw a decline of 4 percent.

The study, requested by congressional Democrats in May, quickly provided fodder for the presidential campaign over the fairness of more than $1 trillion in tax cuts Mr. Bush has pushed through Congress since taking office.

People in the top 20 percent of incomes, averaging $182,700 a year, saw their share of federal taxes decline from 65.3 percent of total payments in 2001 to 63.5 percent this year, according to the study by congressional budget analysts.

In contrast, middle-class taxpayers — with incomes ranging from $51,500 to $75,600 — bear a greater tax burden. Those making an average of $75,600 had the biggest jump in their share of taxes, from 18.5 percent of all payments in 2001 to 19.5 percent this year.

The tax cuts don't work, they haven't helped the economy, but yet McCain wants to make them permanent. IS that really what we need during a recession? Economists warned us when the cuts where passed, and they're telling us now that they don't work, yet McCain is too stubborn, or dumb to see it. And democrats are closed minded?


Its like I said that lower income classes are now bearing more of the burden, I NEVER said the tax cuts only decreased taxes on the rich, I just stated that they placed a greater, and unfair burden on the lower incomes.


Thats why I keep saying McCain will just be more of the same, just spit out crap about cutting taxes, while your destroy the environment, our economy, and the respect for our nation around the world.

[Coach_Owens87]

Table of Tax cuts




Lowest 20% $16,600 - $230 2.8%

Middle 20% $57,400 - $980 11.5%

Top 20% $ 203,700 -$4,890 59.9%

Top 1% $1,171,000 -$40,990 24.6%


http://www.cbpp.org/8-25-04tax.htm

The top 1% of the country got 25% of the tax cuts, and the top 20% got 60% of the tax cuts, but yet people say this didn't mainly benefit the rich.

The middle 20% only saved on average $980, not $4,000 as PHS95 post would lead you to believe (and would you please provide a link to those stats, or did you just make them up?). The tax cuts where so great for the wealthy that the average amount of tax cuts for the country where skewed to make it seem they where fair to everyone. Your a fool to think this fairly helped everyone, or let me rephrase that, you would be a blind partisan fool to think this really helped everyone!


But I guess some people think helping out those who dont need help is really the best thing for this country. McCain would not be a choice for change, he is just another man selling his presidency to the highest bidder.

[PHS95]

Here is the problem, you are looking at things in a short-sided manner! The people who make less money account for a smaller percentage of the total income in the country, thus skewing the numbers you are talking about.... ONCE AGAIN, SIMPLE MATH! 10% to someone making one million is much more than 10 percent to someone making 10 thousand!

And, this "loan" from the Chinese.... I thought you said that was for the stimulus payments, NOT tax cuts.... The Chinese didn't pay for me to keep money in MY pocket that I earned.... It does NOT work both ways....

McCain might keep these tax cuts, BRAVO! I applaud the effort to keep American money in AMERICAN pockets! If you want to tackle the national deficit issue, get tough on the benefits that illegal immigrants are partaking of (welfare, etc.) while not contributing to the taxes in our country.... don't blame hard-working Americans for wanting lower taxes instead of higher taxes for bigger government!

Additionally, I do not make things up.... there is no need, look for yourself, I think you and everyone else will find it enlightening!

www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

[PHS95]

Table of Tax cuts




Lowest 20% $16,600 - $230 2.8%

Middle 20% $57,400 - $980 11.5%

Top 20% $ 203,700 -$4,890 59.9%

Top 1% $1,171,000 -$40,990 24.6%


http://www.cbpp.org/8-25-04tax.htm

The top 1% of the country got 25% of the tax cuts, and the top 20% got 60% of the tax cuts, but yet people say this didn't mainly benefit the rich.

The middle 20% only saved on average $980, not $4,000 as PHS95 post would lead you to believe (and would you please provide a link to those stats, or did you just make them up?). The tax cuts where so great for the wealthy that the average amount of tax cuts for the country where skewed to make it seem they where fair to everyone. Your a fool to think this fairly helped everyone, or let me rephrase that, you would be a blind partisan fool to think this really helped everyone!


But I guess some people think helping out those who dont need help is really the best thing for this country. McCain would not be a choice for change, he is just another man selling his presidency to the highest bidder.

As anyone would be foolish to believe that either of the two democrats is not doing the same thing.... POLITICS, in general, is a viscious animal and it is ALWAYS about the money.

And, please, refrain from calling people foolish when folks disagree with you. It makes you look pretty short-sided, closed-minded, and childish!

[More Cowbell]

They see it because we had to BORROW money to initiate these cuts, which has made the national deficit increase dramatically, and eventually we will have to pay it back, and the biggest burden of that will be on the lower and middle income levels in this country.

Its like I said that lower income classes are now bearing more of the burden, I NEVER said the tax cuts only decreased taxes on the rich, I just stated that they placed a greater, and unfair burden on the lower incomes.

First off, from what do you base your assertion that the lower and middle income levels will face the greater burden in paying off national debt? I'd like to see some unbiased facts to support that.

Also, how can tax cuts place a greater burden on the lower incomes? Many lower income households don't have to pay any tax now, while many others are seeing more take-home pay from their income. Sounds to me like that's a lesser burden. And so what if the lower and middle income families are paying a higher percentage of the total tax? That's still based on a smaller tax base, which means that EVERYBODY gets more money in their pocket. And this is a bad thing?

It's just a difference of opinion, some people would say the government knows how best to spend MY money. I disagree, I think that I know best.

[More Cowbell]

Here is the problem, you are looking at things in a short-sided manner! The people who make less money account for a smaller percentage of the total income in the country, thus skewing the numbers you are talking about.... ONCE AGAIN, SIMPLE MATH! 10% to someone making one million is much more than 10 percent to someone making 10 thousand!

And, this "loan" from the Chinese.... I thought you said that was for the stimulus payments, NOT tax cuts.... The Chinese didn't pay for me to keep money in MY pocket that I earned.... It does NOT work both ways....

McCain might keep these tax cuts, BRAVO! I applaud the effort to keep American money in AMERICAN pockets! If you want to tackle the national deficit issue, get tough on the benefits that illegal immigrants are partaking of (welfare, etc.) while not contributing to the taxes in our country.... don't blame hard-working Americans for wanting lower taxes instead of higher taxes for bigger government!

Another excellent post, PHS95. You took the words right out of my mouth.

[PHS95]

Thank you, MoreCowbell.... It never ceases to amaze me that some people do not understand the basic principles of math!

[22lb Bass]

Where is CAVEMASTER... I always look forward to reading his/her post.

[DevilsWin]

Say what you want and site whatever you want, but I have been Married with no Children since 1991 and I haven't seen a tax refund since 1999!

I'm sick and tired of paying your bills!

[Coach_Owens87]

Here is the problem, you are looking at things in a short-sided manner! The people who make less money account for a smaller percentage of the total income in the country, thus skewing the numbers you are talking about.... ONCE AGAIN, SIMPLE MATH! 10% to someone making one million is much more than 10 percent to someone making 10 thousand!

And, this "loan" from the Chinese.... I thought you said that was for the stimulus payments, NOT tax cuts.... The Chinese didn't pay for me to keep money in MY pocket that I earned.... It does NOT work both ways....

McCain might keep these tax cuts, BRAVO! I applaud the effort to keep American money in AMERICAN pockets! If you want to tackle the national deficit issue, get tough on the benefits that illegal immigrants are partaking of (welfare, etc.) while not contributing to the taxes in our country.... don't blame hard-working Americans for wanting lower taxes instead of higher taxes for bigger government!


Additionally, I do not make things up.... there is no need, look for yourself, I think you and everyone else will find it enlightening!

www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

Obviously you cant do simple math, an average saving of $980 (Which is what the middle class received, is not 10% of 57,400 (Thier average income!) (It's 1.7% compared to 3.5% for the top 1 percent. Is that fair to everyone? I think not)

Tax cuts are great, but they should be fair for everyone, and their effect on the economy should be taken into account.

I thinks it fair that the hard working middle class should get just as much tax break, if not more, than the top 1%, but thats just my opinion, McCain and Bush dont see things this way.

Tax Foundation

Ive already checked out the site you mentioned, thier a right wing site who has been criticized for "misleading" information. These criticism have been around for over a decade. But the same can be said for the site I used, which some say is a left wing site.

And no one in thier right mind should applaud keeping the current tax cuts, they arent in full effect yet, but they have really hurt the economy.

Here are some links to prove this:

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/webfeatur...s_20051026

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/op...ams17.html

A couple links showing TAX CUTS WHERE MOSTLY FOR THE RICH!!!

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/04/business/tax.php

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/art...Aug12.html

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/05/news/tax_cuts/index.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/08/washington/08tax.html

http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/tax-law...071-1.html

[Coach_Owens87]

First off, from what do you base your assertion that the lower and middle income levels will face the greater burden in paying off national debt? I'd like to see some unbiased facts to support that.

Also, how can tax cuts place a greater burden on the lower incomes? Many lower income households don't have to pay any tax now, while many others are seeing more take-home pay from their income. Sounds to me like that's a lesser burden. And so what if the lower and middle income families are paying a higher percentage of the total tax? That's still based on a smaller tax base, which means that EVERYBODY gets more money in their pocket. And this is a bad thing?

It's just a difference of opinion, some people would say the government knows how best to spend MY money. I disagree, I think that I know best.

About 15 studies, some of which I mentioned in my last post.

PHS95 used a known right wing site to support his/her opinion, dont you think it's hypocritical to ask me to use an "unbaised" site when you are supporting someone who used a known biased site?

[The Fan]

The problem I see in general is that people are raised to believe that republicans are evil around here. People should vote based on issues, not party lines!

They are evil for trying to repeal prevailing wages and making this a right to work state. i.e.[ your last Gov. ] which basically takes away your right to collective bargaining . If had the chance dont think for one minute McCain wont do the same if elected . This is one of the issuesI have with the republican party which is very anti - union.

[PHS95]

About 15 studies, some of which I mentioned in my last post.

PHS95 used a known right wing site to support his/her opinion, dont you think it's hypocritical to ask me to use an "unbaised" site when you are supporting someone who used a known biased site?

As you used a KNOWN LIBERAL policy site to prove yours.... drop it.... this argument is tiresome. And for you to say that I can't do simple math is absurd.... I have proven myself to be logical and intelligent. Let's agree to disagree and move on!

[Coach_Owens87]

As you used a KNOWN LIBERAL policy site to prove yours.... drop it.... this argument is tiresome. And for you to say that I can't do simple math is absurd.... I have proven myself to be logical and intelligent. Let's agree to disagree and move on!

Umm yeah, I think I admitted to that.

As far as your math, it didnt hold up with your numbers. (The taxes weren't cut equally)

Anyone with a working brain knows that if tax's where cut equally for everyone, the people making more money would see a larger tax cut, that isnt what happened though. According to my source there was no 10% cut, except for the top 1 % percent ( Cheney got an 18% tax cut, while the bottom 20% got around a 2% cut).

According to your site a single making 35K got a 46% tax cut, while a married couple got a 19% tax cut. these numbers dont hold up with other study ive read. (and those numbers are not 10%, as you stated.

and yes we should drop the subject, and start talking about the other things McCain would do wrong/right if elected.

[PHS95]

I was using 10 percent as an example, not a rote number.... so, no, those numbers would not hold up as I was simply stating an example, not reality!

"Other studies" are patently liberal or conservative. The information I provided is the average numbers, nationally, for the past several decades, not a study that seeks to skew the results. If you don't like McCain, there is not a thing I can do to change that, but, just as you tell others to stop watching Fox News for info, maybe you should open up to other sources that are more balanced than the liberal media and policy outlets that you tend to frequent! I, personally, feel that, given the current three options, McCain is BY FAR the lesser of the evils, and I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours!

[Coach_Owens87]

I was using 10 percent as an example, not a rote number.... so, no, those numbers would not hold up as I was simply stating an example, not reality!

"Other studies" are patently liberal or conservative. The information I provided is the average numbers, nationally, for the past several decades, not a study that seeks to skew the results. If you don't like McCain, there is not a thing I can do to change that, but, just as you tell others to stop watching Fox News for info, maybe you should open up to other sources that are more balanced than the liberal media and policy outlets that you tend to frequent! I, personally, feel that, given the current three options, McCain is BY FAR the lesser of the evils, and I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours!

Are you sure about that? do some research and look at how tax foundation gets their numbers! Their results are often skewed.


My sources

Last time I checked I was the one who posted several sites, you just posted ONE site for your info, which is a conservative think tank. So I believe you are the one who needs to "open up" to other sources.

I am open to all sources, I looked at the tax foundations numbers when I was researching, but their numbers didnt hold up to all the other studies and stats released from other organizations. (Most of which claimed to be by-partisan, just like the tax foundations does) So I decided to go with numbers from the CBPP, CNN, CBS, several independent studies, and a study by congress, all of which said the tax cuts heavily favored the wealthy, while placing a heavier tax burden on the lowest incomes. Which is one of the reasons why we are heading toward another depression, mal-distribution of wealth was the major cause of the great depression, and it's leading us into another one.


Fox news is a totally different story, they use every chance possible to smear anyone who disagrees with the conservatives. And they do it by lying on a daily basis to make themselves, and McCain look better.




But lets move on to McCain.

Why do you like/dislike the man?

[Old School]

Here is the problem, you are looking at things in a short-sided manner! The people who make less money account for a smaller percentage of the total income in the country, thus skewing the numbers you are talking about.... ONCE AGAIN, SIMPLE MATH! 10% to someone making one million is much more than 10 percent to someone making 10 thousand!

And, this "loan" from the Chinese.... I thought you said that was for the stimulus payments, NOT tax cuts.... The Chinese didn't pay for me to keep money in MY pocket that I earned.... It does NOT work both ways....

McCain might keep these tax cuts, BRAVO! I applaud the effort to keep American money in AMERICAN pockets! If you want to tackle the national deficit issue, get tough on the benefits that illegal immigrants are partaking of (welfare, etc.) while not contributing to the taxes in our country.... don't blame hard-working Americans for wanting lower taxes instead of higher taxes for bigger government!

Additionally, I do not make things up.... there is no need, look for yourself, I think you and everyone else will find it enlightening!

www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

Good point about the cost of benefits being paid to illegal immigrants. I read an article about this the other day and it said that between medicaid, food assistance prograns such as food stamps ,WIC, school lunches, welfare, money spent to incarcerate illegal aliens and other monies being spent on illegal aliens cost the US taxpayers over 300 Billion Dollars per year.

[PHS95]

You see it as lying, some of us see it as balancing out the overabundance of liberal media sources.... to each his own. I was raised to look at issues and decide on the best candidate for the job. In this case, I will take McCain as I have no respect for either of the other two candidates. The reasons are too varied and in depth to go into in this instance, so I will refrain. When faced with the choice this November, I will choose McCain.

OldSchool, I also have found it staggering that people who are screeching over the cost of war have yet to note that we spend more money per anum on illegal immigrants who send more than half of their money to their home country and often do not continue to the country's tax base! It truly is appalling to think of the amount of benefits we afford people who are not willing to learn our language or positively contribute a portion of their earnings the way that we have to!