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Old 10-30-2015, 09:48 AM
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Default Love it or hate it..Private killed Volleyball
Just thought I would get on my soapbox, and it is something I have been saying all alone. With four eastern ky teams going to state, a lot of people say we didn't belong. All I have to say is the BOC that voted to keep private and public together I say a great big thank you. All you did was pick each other off when you did that. Top 25 means nothing. These teams from eastern ky are top 16 and you did that to yourself. Fear that nothing is going to be done to fix this. I am ok with that and no solution in site means no one cares that a National ranked team that is private will play a team from Floyd Co, and a top 25 in the state will play a small town Letcher Central. We are a top 16 team and the state will just have to get over it. Soap box over!!
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Old 10-30-2015, 02:12 PM
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Soultion:

Give public schools the same rights that private schools have when it comes to athletics.

Restrict private schools to the same rules public schools have to follow.






Unless a LANDMARK decision is made by the KHSAA BOC, this will be never ending battle.

In the world we live in today, until somebody files some type of lawsuit against the KHSAA, we will never see a Public/Private split.



And to be honest, Private schools have no business being in contention for any state championship.
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Old 11-02-2015, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cougarpride08 View Post
Just thought I would get on my soapbox, and it is something I have been saying all alone. With four eastern ky teams going to state, a lot of people say we didn't belong. All I have to say is the BOC that voted to keep private and public together I say a great big thank you. All you did was pick each other off when you did that. Top 25 means nothing. These teams from eastern ky are top 16 and you did that to yourself. Fear that nothing is going to be done to fix this. I am ok with that and no solution in site means no one cares that a National ranked team that is private will play a team from Floyd Co, and a top 25 in the state will play a small town Letcher Central. We are a top 16 team and the state will just have to get over it. Soap box over!!
I'm having a hard time following your post - can't tell if you are for a public/private split, or against it.

Private schools aren't wrecking volleyball. Public schools not getting their act together and starting volleyball at a younger age are. I don't expect teams in E KY to ever win, but there are public schools in the same regions as the big privates(6,7,9) that should be able to compete with the private schools.

Saying you are a top 16 team in the State just because you win your Region is a complete joke, because of the KHSAA's ridiculous system of blind draws and region winners. Sacred Heart is ranked in the top 20 NATIONALLY but lost the Region 7 final to Assumption (also top 20 nationally) and is out. Think about that. A top 20 team in the Nation won't even make it to the State Championship. Only in Kentucky! Meanwhile, someone is going to finish 2nd in the State Tourney - just don't take that to mean they are the 2nd best team.

The actual real State Championship was last Thursday when Sacred heart played Assumption.
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Old 11-02-2015, 01:11 PM
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This is the best comparison to the Public/Private debate.

Public Schools: Fielding a team only using people from your geographical location within a certain age group.

Private Schools: Fielding a team from across the country within a certain age group.


This would be like having the New England Patriots play the Rec. League team from Foxborough.
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Old 11-02-2015, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Pulp Fiction View Post
This is the best comparison to the Public/Private debate.

Public Schools: Fielding a team only using people from your geographical location within a certain age group.

Private Schools: Fielding a team from across the country within a certain age group.


This would be like having the New England Patriots play the Rec. League team from Foxborough.
That's a poor comparison. With open enrollment, public school kids can pick their public school. And most school districts will let you attend for a fee if you are out of the district. People want to play for the Patriots because they win and have an established team. Girls want to play volleyball at private schools because they have an established program and because they get to play with other volleyball players, not the softball team pretending to be the volleyball team. If a public school can establish a program and win, girls will want to go there too.
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Old 11-03-2015, 12:41 AM
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I am against it. Add I said in my opening post, BOC had the chance to give private there own tournament and even fix region to make it meaningful but they wanted to beat up on poor defensivless public schools. The reason top 20 nationally gets beat out of region is the same ones who run the school. Oh and some of my statements was sarcasm. What do you suggest to make it fair?
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Old 11-03-2015, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cougarpride08 View Post
What do you suggest to make it fair?
First I'll say, what's unfair about it? Public schools need to get better, end of story.

I will say an easy, simple thing to do right away would be to seed the State Tourney. Once the 16 teams are in, have those 16 coaches vote and seed the tourney.

People think Volleyball needs classes more than any other sport, but all that means is the smaller private schools would then win the small-school class.

In my mind, it's not up to the KHSAA to make it easier for public schools to win. That's on the schools.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:38 AM
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You think it is possible for schools to get better when private school get anyone they want? You can debate this all you want but the fact is volleyball, soccer, and even basketball would benefit from classification. We are one of only two schools that has one basketball state champ. My solution is much better and still gives everyone the chance. It deals with seating and still helps with fairness.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:44 AM
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Volleyball, and soccer Have regular season champs..no tourney. Try to get teams to play more tournament, and pool play on weekends to get wins. Where district tournament is have either region or create sectionals to get the best players and teams in state tournament. I know people say win your region if you want to make it, but there is so much geographical issues dealing with region..example Estill co is in reg 14. That is a 2 hour and 14 min drive.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:51 AM
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They are 46 miles to Lexington. Why are they in the 14th region? Geographically the khsaa needs to redraw the regionals and to me creating sectionals fixes most of the issues throughout the state. With Floyd co consolidating two schools now would be the time to fix the problem. I know my Cougars go to state in volleyball but to make them better means putting them in a sectional tournament against teams like Allen Central, South Floyd, and Corbin. Semi state would even fix it. Top 8 goes to State. Perfect way to fix it. Split it so all schools have to win district, reg, and sect to go to state. Make it meaningful and I promise kids will have to get better. Give me a reason to even keep a district championship? Would save the khsaa a ton of money.
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Old 11-04-2015, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cougarpride08 View Post
They are 46 miles to Lexington. Why are they in the 14th region? Geographically the khsaa needs to redraw the regionals and to me creating sectionals fixes most of the issues throughout the state. With Floyd co consolidating two schools now would be the time to fix the problem. I know my Cougars go to state in volleyball but to make them better means putting them in a sectional tournament against teams like Allen Central, South Floyd, and Corbin. Semi state would even fix it. Top 8 goes to State. Perfect way to fix it. Split it so all schools have to win district, reg, and sect to go to state. Make it meaningful and I promise kids will have to get better. Give me a reason to even keep a district championship? Would save the khsaa a ton of money.
I'm not sure I know what you are trying to fix? Your original post was Private schools have gotten so good in KY it has ruined volleyball. I don't know if adding a sub-state (which they have in soccer) and only sending 8 to state is fixing your problem

And Districts don't cost the KHSAA - they make some $ there, they don't want that gone either.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:41 PM
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The same old arguments again. Volleyball in KY hasn't been killed by the privates. It, in fact, is very much alive and respected nationally. It is not strong in many areas of the state because of people who want to attack successful programs instead of dealing with their own issues. Let's look at the common complaints:

1) Privates don't play by the same rules--yes, they do. Private schools adhere to the same KHSAA rules and regulations that all
members must abide by.

2) Privates recruit players--no, they don't--it's illegal by KHSAA rule. Tell me the last time a private volleyball program was even investigated for illegal recruiting?? Never mind, I'll answer for you--NEVER. They don't have to recruit--the players come to them. Players go to successful schools, because they are successful. Ever hear of the saying "like a moth to a flame"? The brightest lights will attract the most--same with athletes. Very bright students in Louisville go to Manual for their educational programs, because they are perceived to be the best. Same principle works in all areas.

3) Privates aren't restricted geographically, (whatever that means in the current day of open enrollment)--I know for a fact that ALL of the players for Assumption and Mercy this year are from Jefferson County. How is that much different from consolidated public schools out in the state? They get all the students from their county. The privates in Louisville have to share with 21--say it again, 21--other high schools. Henderson County made the state tourney. They are the only high school in their county. They get everyone. They are the largest public school in the state. And if they make it to the final, they will be drilled.

4) Privates have a larger pool of girls to choose from--I call BS on that too. I can name 10 public schools with a larger female enrollment than Assumption. I can list over 60 schools that have more females than Mercy. The other privates are even smaller. Check with the KHSAA if you don't believe it--it's on their website because they track stuff like that. I can also name private schools with enrollments of less than 150 girls who have, and would, run rings around public schools out in the state.

So let's go to solutions:

Kick out the privates and let them have their own tourney. Let me see, I can't compete so I'll force out the good teams so my team can win a worthless title. Sounds great doesn't it? I don't know about you, but I taught my kids to embrace challenges--they make you better.

Let's go to a class system. Ok. I'd be willing to bet that each class would have privates sprinkled throughout that would soon rule the roost anyway. ****, Mercy would probably be 2A. Now you have, let's say 3, classes all won by privates. We can be like Florida with 8 classes---everyone wins a prize!!

One other possible solution--improve your programs so that they CAN compete. Sounds crazy doesn't it? Start club programs in your area. Have coaches who know the game and aren't marking time til softball season.
Volleyball players aren't magically made. They come from long hours and hard work. Until the mindset changes from "let's make it easier for our programs" to "let's make our programs successful", nothing will change.
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Old 11-09-2015, 02:52 PM
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This is a debate that will go on until somethings is done , but Wildcatdad to get on here and say private schools do not recruit is a Flat out lie, to give a high school student a free ride to a private high school and call it a academic scholarship is recruiting , And to say public schools have open enrollment is the same as private is not true either How many kids play on those teams they are from different states? You don't see Raceland or any other schools have kids from Ohio or Tenn on any sports roster
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Old 11-12-2015, 11:27 AM
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So, if we can't provide any facts to support our arguments, so we just call another poster a liar. Ok. I'm a big boy and can take it.

*****POST WARNING******All statements below might be lies!!

Now to address the other big one I overlooked--"athletic scholarships disguised as academic" and the infamous "free rides". Private schools supposedly provide free rides for all these athletes to come to their schools, or provide them with athletic scholarships disguised as academic scholarships. Do you honestly believe that if this occurred that the KHSAA just ignores it? That competing public schools wouldn't have turned them for doing so? If you do, you need to get fitted for your tin foil hat. Speaking of Jefferson County, if a JCPS school knew this was happening at any Catholic school, they wouldn't be able to get to the KHSAA fast enough.

The Catholic schools DO provide need based financial aid to some students to offset tuition costs. None of this aid comes anywhere near to covering all of the tuition, nor do all students get it. Using St X as an example, about 25% of students receive some financial aid. It works like this;

1--They have a set number of dollars available.
2--ALL students can apply for it.
3--The application goes to a third party processor in Cleveland who evaluates the need and distributes the dollars accordingly. The private school has zero say in who gets it and how much. All of this information is open to the KHSAA to look at if they feel it is being abused.

Some schools, St X specifically again, provide a merit based academic scholarship--again covering nowhere near all of the tuition cost--to some incoming freshman based on their score on the placement exam. Exam is also administered by a third party testing service. If you get above a 95th percentile, you might get one. If you can run a 4.0--40, you won't, unless you get above the 95th percentile. All facts, but facts that don't agree with delusions are false I guess?

As to open enrollment, it is open enrollment. Kids from any school district including public can attend another as long as they want to pay the fees. There are kids from Indiana Ohio Tennessee and West Virginia who have attended KY schools. It's all in what is most convenient for the parents. As we were discussing volleyball, I'm still waiting to hear about all these out of state girls playing for Mercy or Assumption. ?? The sound you hear is crickets chirping, because you're not going to hear anyone naming names because they can't.

As to Ohio and Tennessee girls attending Raceland--really? Why would they? The 16th Region winner has made it to state and has been run out of the gym the last 5 years. You must have overlooked my point that the good schools don't have to recruit because they are good. Good players seek out good programs. Don't like it? Work to improve your program. Want to boot out the privates? Go right ahead. Heck, Assumption for the most part doesn't play any local schools now out of district except other privates. They will do just fine, have their own tourney, and in the end everyone will dismiss the public tournament winner, because they will know that the publics watered it down rather than compete. It would be like the NCAA kicking out UConns women's basketball because they won too many times.
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:12 AM
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I refer you to the U.S. Circuit Court case Seger v KHSAA. It details the upholding of KHSAA Bylaw 13 limiting merit based aid to a max of 25% to retain athletic eligibility. Basically students received aid from the school and from various charities that exceeded 25%. They were subsequently ruled ineligible for athletic competition.

As you can see, the KHSAA does review all financial aid and does not allow "free rides". If the governing body, the KHSAA, is reviewing this information and has no issues with it, what does that mean? If you say kids are getting "free rides", and the KHSAA says they're not, does that mean there is a big Catholic/KHSAA conspiracy?? Or, does it mean you really have no clue as to what you're discussing?

A student attending Assumption for example can get her 25% in merit aid, but still will shell out almost $9,000 a year for tuition. Far cry from a "free ride". Also, keep in mind that these kid's parents are still paying taxes to support the public school system they don't even use.

Really gets old when people cry wolf about cheating when the root cause of their complaint is right at their own feet. "If my team is unsuccessful someone else must be cheating". That's a defeatist mindset and explains a lot.

I'm a UK fan and UK football sucks because it sucks, not because other schools are cheating. It sucks because UK has never invested the time, talent and treasure necessary to compete. Same is true with most KY public school volleyball programs.
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Old 11-29-2015, 08:49 PM
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Volleyball, Soccer, and softball are three sports where Privates should be separated from the Public schools IMO, which obviously doesn't count for anything.
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:14 PM
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I hate to dig up an old topic for my first post but it was an interesting discussion.

I think Henry Clay by virtue of winning a set in the State Finals last year put flag in the ground for public schools in Volleyball in this state.

It seems the foundation of that success was groomed via club vball (Lexington United.) They probably will have the best player in the state this year (2017) that is targeted to go to Penn State.

From club vball tournaments in the Spring, I have noticed several KY affiliated clubs from parts of the state that I didn't notice before. In the next decade you'll see the gap close in volleyball continue between Private and Public schools if these clubs remain operational as a lot of these kids will be feeding public school programs.

One thing that will have to change drastically is the elementary participation in volleyball. By virtue of having daughters I'm basing my opinion off multiple elementary volleyball seasons and I can only recall 1 public school fielding a team.

Until then to have a more competitive state championship the easiest solution (IMO) would have Region Winner and Runner Up participate in a cross over round. A Region Champ plays a Region Runner up and vice versa. Then the remaining 16 go to a state bracket.
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Old 10-18-2017, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by AMPHAR View Post
I hate to dig up an old topic for my first post but it was an interesting discussion.

I think Henry Clay by virtue of winning a set in the State Finals last year put flag in the ground for public schools in Volleyball in this state.

It seems the foundation of that success was groomed via club vball (Lexington United.) They probably will have the best player in the state this year (2017) that is targeted to go to Penn State.

From club vball tournaments in the Spring, I have noticed several KY affiliated clubs from parts of the state that I didn't notice before. In the next decade you'll see the gap close in volleyball continue between Private and Public schools if these clubs remain operational as a lot of these kids will be feeding public school programs.

One thing that will have to change drastically is the elementary participation in volleyball. By virtue of having daughters I'm basing my opinion off multiple elementary volleyball seasons and I can only recall 1 public school fielding a team.

Until then to have a more competitive state championship the easiest solution (IMO) would have Region Winner and Runner Up participate in a cross over round. A Region Champ plays a Region Runner up and vice versa. Then the remaining 16 go to a state bracket.
It proves that if you want to be better, you have to get better. Public schools aligning themselves with club volleyball will only help them. Also, HS coaches in KY can coach their exact same HS players in club. Playing year 'round makes a huge difference. And don't give me any of that 3 sport non-sense. If you want to get better in volleyball, I mean top-ranked - college coaches interested, you play volleyball year 'round. If you choose not to do that and play other sports in HS, then don't expect to get better. Jack of all trades, Master of none.
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Old 10-19-2017, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mrknowitball View Post
It proves that if you want to be better, you have to get better. Public schools aligning themselves with club volleyball will only help them. Also, HS coaches in KY can coach their exact same HS players in club. Playing year 'round makes a huge difference. And don't give me any of that 3 sport non-sense. If you want to get better in volleyball, I mean top-ranked - college coaches interested, you play volleyball year 'round. If you choose not to do that and play other sports in HS, then don't expect to get better. Jack of all trades, Master of none.
Yep, you are dead on. We are starting to see this very thing happening (at least to some degree). There is now a club team in Pikeville that largely consists of Pikeville High School players, there are a few club teams out of ashland that largely consists of players from one high school or two. I've heard rumors that Johnson Central plans to have a club team this coming year even... This is what has to happen if teams in East KY are ever going to compete with the schools from other parts of the state.

With all that sad... volleyball, much like soccer, is a secondary sport at best in this area and will be for years to come. Prime example of this, look at the Soccer forum and this volleyball forum... It's district/regional tournament in both sports and there's hardly a single thread with activity right now regarding teams from east ky.
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Old 10-21-2017, 12:33 AM
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the bottom line is make everybody play by the same rules it doesn't matter if your public or private. make sure the kid lives in the area where they go to school. no tuition, no scholarships. can you imagine if a private school tried to do this in basketball. if these schools are going to compete for a state title then everybody follow the same rules. if a public school was caught "paying" a basketball player 25% they would be in violation. public or private everybody should follow the same rules or not be a member of the khsaa
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Old 11-26-2017, 07:18 PM
Rick Grimes Rick Grimes is offline
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Absolutely hate that the private schools are lumped in with the public schools in all sports but especially volleyball. My daughter played varsity volleyball and has since the her 8th grade season (sheís a sophomore now). They have a pretty good team but are in a region with Scott High which has been the volleyball powerhouse in the 10th last 4 seasons. Come state tournament time Scott being as good as they are still canít compete with the private schools. Itís my belief that these schools should be separated in all sports.

And then there is always classification. But where Iím used to talking about sports they is a no-no and you are ridiculed for bringing it up.
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  BGR-Kentucky High School Sports - BlueGrassRivals » Kentucky High School and Middle School Sports » Volleyball

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