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Old 12-14-2017, 12:13 PM
Iam4thecats Iam4thecats is offline
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Default Losing or getting out coached
The Mayfield folks and Corbin folks have gotten me wondering.
Whats the difference to you fans between losing a game or being out coached?
Is it possible to lose without being outcoached?
Is it possible to win and be out coached?
Do the players and their performance on the field that day have anything to do with the outcome of games?
Is any game strictly a battle between the 2 head coaches for fans?
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:45 PM
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IMO being outcoached and/or outplayed are not necessarily a cause for a loss. On the field things can happen that cause a loss that has nothing to do with coaching such as turnovers, bad calls, weather, injuries, etc.

Having a team prepared with the proper play calling, schemes or motivation are all a part of coaching. In a game both teams SHOULD BE prepared to win the game. Period. No stone left unturned. Scouting of the offense/defense is analyzed again and again and the game plan is put in. Some coaches just do a better job of it than others. That might be because of experience, understanding of football at a higher level or being more aware of their own talent limitations or advantages.

Chuck Smith is a master motivator. But his understanding of the game and his ability to get the most out of his kids regardless of their age or skill level is unreal.

He outcoached Haddix in the way that our kids were ready to implement the game plan and be successful doing it because they had bought in 100% to him. Once the gameplan was implemented the talent took over.

Outplayed? In the sense that Boyle had more athleticism on the field vs Corbin (which is not a knock on the Redhounds it's just fact) but I'm not so sure they "outplayed" Corbin. The talent of Boyle was put in a position to best make them successful. Corbin played hard and did some great things and outplayed the Rebels at times.

As good as Boyle is athletically, without Chuck Smith, I'm not so sure they win that state title. Haddix on the other hand is a great coach with a great football mind. He just went against someone with a lot more experience and it showed on the field in preparation and execution of the gameplan.

Haddix will learn from that game and has a fantastic future in football.
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FoSho View Post
IMO being outcoached and/or outplayed are not necessarily a cause for a loss. On the field things can happen that cause a loss that has nothing to do with coaching such as turnovers, bad calls, weather, injuries, etc.

Having a team prepared with the proper play calling, schemes or motivation are all a part of coaching. In a game both teams SHOULD BE prepared to win the game. Period. No stone left unturned. Scouting of the offense/defense is analyzed again and again and the game plan is put in. Some coaches just do a better job of it than others. That might be because of experience, understanding of football at a higher level or being more aware of their own talent limitations or advantages.

Chuck Smith is a master motivator. But his understanding of the game and his ability to get the most out of his kids regardless of their age or skill level is unreal.

He outcoached Haddix in the way that our kids were ready to implement the game plan and be successful doing it because they had bought in 100% to him. Once the gameplan was implemented the talent took over.

Outplayed? In the sense that Boyle had more athleticism on the field vs Corbin (which is not a knock on the Redhounds it's just fact) but I'm not so sure they "outplayed" Corbin. The talent of Boyle was put in a position to best make them successful. Corbin played hard and did some great things and outplayed the Rebels at times.

As good as Boyle is athletically, without Chuck Smith, I'm not so sure they win that state title. Haddix on the other hand is a great coach with a great football mind. He just went against someone with a lot more experience and it showed on the field in preparation and execution of the gameplan.

Haddix will learn from that game and has a fantastic future in football.
So, in short Boyle didn't have better players than Corbin, Haddix got out coached.
Theres no way Haddix was prepared and did everything he was supposed to do and Boyle kids performed better or were just more talented. It comes down to the HC position for you.
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Iam4thecats View Post
So, in short Boyle didn't have better players than Corbin, Haddix got out coached.
Theres no way Haddix was prepared and did everything he was supposed to do and Boyle kids performed better or were just more talented. It comes down to the HC position for you.
Boyle obviously had better/more athletic players but if they weren't put in a position to take advantage of that skill then the outcome could have been different.

In the case of the 3A Title Game. I believe Boyle had both better players AND the coaching advantage.

I believe the game played out to confirm that.
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:33 PM
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Or maybe Chuck and his staff did a great job and that is independent of whether Haddix did a great job or not. Its not a zero sum game. What Boyles staff decides to do has no effect on whether Haddix had a great plan, did all the film study that could be done and prepared his kids, and adjusted some things during the game.

Its like 2 golfers. You may tally up the score at the end but when golfers are competing one of them isn't standing in front of the ball playing defense. Chuck is a hall of famer but he wasn't in Haddix office the week before playing defense and making the Corbin staff not do their job.
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Iam4thecats View Post
Or maybe Chuck and his staff did a great job and that is independent of whether Haddix did a great job or not. Its not a zero sum game. What Boyles staff decides to do has no effect on whether Haddix had a great plan, did all the film study that could be done and prepared his kids, and adjusted some things during the game.

Its like 2 golfers. You may tally up the score at the end but when golfers are competing one of them isn't standing in front of the ball playing defense. Chuck is a hall of famer but he wasn't in Haddix office the week before playing defense and making the Corbin staff not do their job.
You asked a question and I gave my opinion. It's a thin line.

The game plan was followed to a tee and the result was a byproduct of that.
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:55 PM
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I'm curious about the Danville vs Boyle County game this year. Did Danville coach Clay Clevenger out coached Boyle County coach chuck smith or was Danville just the better team.........
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:02 PM
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Danville won the game and was the better team that night. Boyle had 4 turnovers (which I referenced as something that can nullify great coaching/talent).

We only had 8 turnovers on the season.

We lost on a 45 yard FG w/:35 left.

Coach Smith gives that game the credit for the championship run. The young Rebels learned how to practice and prepare as a result of that game.
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:11 PM
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One can't help but wonder if Boyle county's starting corner helped develope that game plan. He did spent the last two and a half years learning Corbin's defensive scheme. Sure some things have changed, but a lot of it is probably still the same it was 8 or 9 months ago.
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:16 PM
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Not sure a 17 year old kid can tell something to Chuck Smith that he either doesn't already know or can figure out by watching film?!?!

But I don't know.
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by FoSho View Post
Danville won the game and was the better team that night. Boyle had 4 turnovers (which I referenced as something that can nullify great coaching/talent).

We only had 8 turnovers on the season.

We lost on a 45 yard FG w/:35 left.

Coach Smith gives that game the credit for the championship run. The young Rebels learned how to practice and prepare as a result of that game.
Ok. This proves nothing and neither does the Justin Haddix being outcoached theory.

It basically means your theory is incorrect and Boyle Co. had an excuse for losing. Remember Danville's kicker didn't play until 2nd Half.
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Time Will Tell View Post
Ok. This proves nothing and neither does the Justin Haddix being outcoached theory.

It basically means your theory is incorrect and Boyle Co. had an excuse for losing. Remember Danville's kicker didn't play until 2nd Half.
Danville did not outplay Boyle that night. Boyle had nearly 100 more yards of offense. But both teams had turnovers that killed them 4/3 and Boyle had some costly penalties. And I wouldn't really say one outcoached the other. Danville deserved the win because of a clutch kick. It's not a good example for this discussion IMO.

Neither team played anywhere near their capabilities.
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by FoSho View Post
Not sure a 17 year old kid can tell something to Chuck Smith that he either doesn't already know or can figure out by watching film?!?!

But I don't know.
I may be mistaken, but I thought Chuck smith was a defensive guy. Doesn't Chris pardue call the offense? Plus I think he is both humble and smart enough to know that there is an easy advantage to be had there. It's hard to figure out read keys and things like that from film for anybody. Im not accusing anybody of anything. It is a good question though.
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Single Wing 77 View Post
I may be mistaken, but I thought Chuck smith was a defensive guy. Doesn't Chris pardue call the offense? Plus I think he is both humble and smart enough to know that there is an easy advantage to be had there. It's hard to figure out read keys and things like that from film for anybody. Im not accusing anybody of anything. It is a good question though.
Chuck calls the D and you're right Pardue calls the O.

But I don't know the answer to that question. I know Snider had a great year after a slow start and is a great kid.
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:14 PM
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When two teams are evenly matched or one team is slightly better, then coaching and putting your kids in the right setups can be the difference.
I thought in the Mayfield / CAL game that CAL only got the ball to Wright about 3 times. A athlete that good has to get the ball more. But Mayfield double covered him all night limiting his touches.CAL's coaching staff in my opinion should have figured out a way to get him the ball more, jet sweeps, wildcat ect. Mayfield's coaching staff did a good job making it hard for him to get the ball on passes. In my opinion Mayfield slightly out coached CAL when you could say these were similar matched up teams.
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FoSho View Post
Chuck calls the D and you're right Pardue calls the O.

But I don't know the answer to that question. I know Snider had a great year after a slow start and is a great kid.
No doubt, I'm really glad to see him have success. I have been rooting for him and will continue to root for him from Corbin. Hope y'all win every game but one next season just because of him.
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Iam4thecats View Post
The Mayfield folks and Corbin folks have gotten me wondering.
Whats the difference to you fans between losing a game or being out coached?
Is it possible to lose without being outcoached?
Is it possible to win and be out coached?
Do the players and their performance on the field that day have anything to do with the outcome of games?
Is any game strictly a battle between the 2 head coaches for fans?
First of all there are more high school football teams in the state of Kentucky than just Corbin and Boyle County....

Quick answers to your five questions:
#1 Sometimes teams lose because they were out coached so in that aspect it can be synonymous. In better words, being out coached COULD be the reason that you lose. But it isn't the reason a game is lost all of the time.
#2 Yes
#3 Yes
#4 Yes
#5 No

There are too many factors in a football game to answer these questions for all games. If you have a good coaching staff, these games are dissected and studied before the teams ever take the field.
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Granny Bear View Post
First of all there are more high school football teams in the state of Kentucky than just Corbin and Boyle County....

Quick answers to your five questions:
#1 Sometimes teams lose because they were out coached so in that aspect it can be synonymous. In better words, being out coached COULD be the reason that you lose. But it isn't the reason a game is lost all of the time.
#2 Yes
#3 Yes
#4 Yes
#5 No

There are too many factors in a football game to answer these questions for all games. If you have a good coaching staff, these games are dissected and studied before the teams ever take the field.
Last paragraph is exactly what I've been thinking. It's really hard to put a blanket on this topic but you know it when you see it.
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Old 12-14-2017, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FoSho View Post
Last paragraph is exactly what I've been thinking. It's really hard to put a blanket on this topic but you know it when you see it.
Exactly
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Snakesnot View Post
When two teams are evenly matched or one team is slightly better, then coaching and putting your kids in the right setups can be the difference.
I thought in the Mayfield / CAL game that CAL only got the ball to Wright about 3 times. A athlete that good has to get the ball more. But Mayfield double covered him all night limiting his touches.CAL's coaching staff in my opinion should have figured out a way to get him the ball more, jet sweeps, wildcat ect. Mayfield's coaching staff did a good job making it hard for him to get the ball on passes. In my opinion Mayfield slightly out coached CAL when you could say these were similar matched up teams.
I agree. If they couldn’t do ANYTHING. Then wildcat him. He was the best athlete on the field.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Iam4thecats View Post
The Mayfield folks and Corbin folks have gotten me wondering.
Whats the difference to you fans between losing a game or being out coached?
Is it possible to lose without being outcoached?
Is it possible to win and be out coached?
Do the players and their performance on the field that day have anything to do with the outcome of games?
Is any game strictly a battle between the 2 head coaches for fans?

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Old 12-14-2017, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 64SUR View Post
I'm curious about the Danville vs Boyle County game this year. Did Danville coach Clay Clevenger out coached Boyle County coach chuck smith or was Danville just the better team.........
good question.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Granny Bear View Post
First of all there are more high school football teams in the state of Kentucky than just Corbin and Boyle County....

Quick answers to your five questions:
#1 Sometimes teams lose because they were out coached so in that aspect it can be synonymous. In better words, being out coached COULD be the reason that you lose. But it isn't the reason a game is lost all of the time.
#2 Yes
#3 Yes
#4 Yes
#5 No

There are too many factors in a football game to answer these questions for all games. If you have a good coaching staff, these games are dissected and studied before the teams ever take the field.
well said.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:25 AM
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Boyle County Fan here. Been trying to keep from writing this but here goes.

Did Haddix get outcoached? I have no idea. How could I? I wasn't at either Boyle or Corbin's practices. I did not sit in on the coaches discussions in the coaches office or locker room. Guess what? Neither did anyone else on this sight.

Did Haddix make the proper adjustments to what Boyle was doing early in the game? I don't know, I wasn't on the sideline or on the head set to listen to the conversations of the coaches in the booth or on the field. Guess what? Neither did anyone else on this site.

Maybe Corbin's game plan was perfect. But not executed. Maybe on one of the Td's somebody slipped. Maybe his adjustments were perfect but one player or two just couldn't make the play they had to make. Or maybe a corner or LB was hurt during the semi final game the week before but the starter a little hurt is still better than his back up. Boyle has an impressive staff. But nobody on this sight has any idea if Haddix is not just as impressive in his abilities. Maybe he is not. Maybe he is. But that one game is no way to know it. Boyle brought home it's 8th State Title and for that I am very very happy. FoSho please stop making the rest of us look like arrogant know it all's. Please.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:32 AM
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I said Haddix was a great coach but I feel like he was outcoached by someone with more experience. So what?

What I post has nothing to do with you personally or anyone else on this sight. We all have opinions, thanks for giving yours.
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Old 12-15-2017, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 64black&gold View Post
Boyle County Fan here. Been trying to keep from writing this but here goes.

Did Haddix get outcoached? I have no idea. How could I? I wasn't at either Boyle or Corbin's practices. I did not sit in on the coaches discussions in the coaches office or locker room. Guess what? Neither did anyone else on this sight.

Did Haddix make the proper adjustments to what Boyle was doing early in the game? I don't know, I wasn't on the sideline or on the head set to listen to the conversations of the coaches in the booth or on the field. Guess what? Neither did anyone else on this site.

Maybe Corbin's game plan was perfect. But not executed. Maybe on one of the Td's somebody slipped. Maybe his adjustments were perfect but one player or two just couldn't make the play they had to make. Or maybe a corner or LB was hurt during the semi final game the week before but the starter a little hurt is still better than his back up. Boyle has an impressive staff. But nobody on this sight has any idea if Haddix is not just as impressive in his abilities. Maybe he is not. Maybe he is. But that one game is no way to know it. Boyle brought home it's 8th State Title and for that I am very very happy. FoSho please stop making the rest of us look like arrogant know it all's. Please.
Thank you very well said, Chuck Smith is a quality guy and heck of a coach have always been a big fan of his. Every fan base has there tweeners but there have been several Boyle Co fans with a lot of class on here you and Jack Lambert for example have made very classy post. Merry Christmas and good luck going forward, seems almost a certain we’ll be seeing each other again.
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Old 12-15-2017, 07:06 AM
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After watching the state championship game between Corbin and Boyle, it's simple, Boyle was the better team. Haddix put his team in position to make plays, but as the old saying goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". Corbin was simply out matched up front and they had couldn't cover Boyle's wide receivers. Corbin was a step slow and Boyle took advantage of it. Boyle's quarterback showed a lot of poise, while Sizemore looked nervous and not himself. The majority of the time, the better team wins, regardless of who's coaching either team.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FoSho View Post
Chuck calls the D and you're right Pardue calls the O.

But I don't know the answer to that question. I know Snider had a great year after a slow start and is a great kid.
Actually Jeff Hester calls the defense (Same defense has been used since 1992 or so) Jeff has called the defense since around 2000 or so
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jlow View Post
Actually Jeff Hester calls the defense (Same defense has been used since 1992 or so) Jeff has called the defense since around 2000 or so
Jeff Hester is the defensive coordinator in title, but I don't think he has as much control as he did before Chuck Smiths return you can tell that by sitting in the stands on Friday nights, and to the best of my knowledge Hester didn't become defensive coordinator until Chuck Smith left Boyle County for UK when Pardue became head coach he appointed Hester defensive coordinator.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:58 AM
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Guys Boyle runs a super simple check defense. Once the game plan is decided on Sunday and installed during the week there aren't many calls even made on Friday nights. They teach fundamentals and let the kids play.
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  BGR-Kentucky High School Sports - BlueGrassRivals » Kentucky High School and Middle School Sports » Football

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