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Old 12-11-2017, 12:40 PM
Willie Turnover Willie Turnover is offline
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Default 5 officials vs. 7 officials in high school games
What is your opinion?
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Old 12-11-2017, 12:49 PM
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Considering Kentucky doesn't have enough to put 5 on the field and call a decent game, I doubt it will ever be 7.
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:12 PM
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Itís hard enough to get 5 officials that have a clue what they are doing. Possibly 1 out 5 knows how to officiate a football game. Itís really disappointing that khsaa requires very little training to become an official in this state. Pay a licensing fee and take an open book rules test...boom youíre an official. Yeah, yeah, yeah you gotta train with an experienced (and I use that term lightly) official to move up the ranks. Oh you have to take an updated rules class every year. Iím not so sure everyone attends that, or if they do, they donít learn it. We may have some good ones in this state, but Iíve yet to come across any knowledgeable enough to ref games properly. I get it, itís a tough gig and I understand missed calls, itís going to happen even to the best officials but what Iíve encountered is not just the occasional missed calls, itís blatant lack of knowledge.
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Friday Night View Post
Itís hard enough to get 5 officials that have a clue what they are doing. Possibly 1 out 5 knows how to officiate a football game. Itís really disappointing that khsaa requires very little training to become an official in this state. Pay a licensing fee and take an open book rules test...boom youíre an official. Yeah, yeah, yeah you gotta train with an experienced (and I use that term lightly) official to move up the ranks. Oh you have to take an updated rules class every year. Iím not so sure everyone attends that, or if they do, they donít learn it. We may have some good ones in this state, but Iíve yet to come across any knowledgeable enough to ref games properly. I get it, itís a tough gig and I understand missed calls, itís going to happen even to the best officials but what Iíve encountered is not just the occasional missed calls, itís blatant lack of knowledge.
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Old 12-11-2017, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rookie57 View Post
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Heck no, they donít pay enough to get criticized by people like me.
My beef isnít really with the officials themselves, itís the lack of training KHSAA provides.
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Old 12-11-2017, 06:29 PM
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Exactly whatís needed more penalties.
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:48 PM
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I'll take quality over quantity. They need to spend some time this summer going over the differences between the rules that apply to hs versus college and NFL. I get sick of seeing refs make calls based on what they see on Sat and Sun. HS has its own rule book and reading it should be requirement for that money your making on Fri night.
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Old 12-12-2017, 09:52 PM
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Yes that $70 bucks on friday is really worth all the extra training you want officals to go through. Sadly you get what you pay for. Its up to local associations on how they want to train the officials. Thats the big problem. I spent over 5 years calling and never once was properly trained or ever touched a field prior to calling games. It was learn as you go. Then we got a new assigner and it was like night and day difference. All kinds of on field training and film studies. So if you have less then quality refs, you need to be on the ads to vote out the current assigner and get someone who actually wants to improve officals as opposed to earning a check.
Some guys go to camps, spend time on internet forums, watch film, and work out to become better officials. Others show up when assigned and get a check. Its hard to hve everyone on the same page when they are doing this as suplimental income or as a hobby. Not everyone in stripes has ambitions of calling in the nfl.
I hear more ďsat and sunĒ rules yelled from the stands then i see actually called on the field. At least in my area I dont see sat and sun rules being enforced. Seems like that would be addressed on film the first time it happened.
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RunItUpTheGut View Post
Considering Kentucky doesn't have enough to put 5 on the field and call a decent game, I doubt it will ever be 7.
7 was used most of the year in lex/louisville. Other regions used it when requested. The playoffs later rounds used 7. Some 1st and 2nd rd games also used 7. This was the first yr khsaa went 7 man. Officals in my area didnt like it because the schools didnt have to pay very much extra. So they took money from the other refs to make up for it. If you made 75 in 5 man your getting about 62 for 7 man. Is it any easier for refs to call 7 man??? No. Itís exactly the same except for the back judge and deep wings. They have fewer recievers to watch. Everything else is exactly the same.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:25 AM
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7 man makes it were even Willie could call the deep wing😂
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by stripedofficial View Post
Yes that $70 bucks on friday is really worth all the extra training you want officals to go through. Sadly you get what you pay for. Its up to local associations on how they want to train the officials. Thats the big problem. I spent over 5 years calling and never once was properly trained or ever touched a field prior to calling games. It was learn as you go. Then we got a new assigner and it was like night and day difference. All kinds of on field training and film studies. So if you have less then quality refs, you need to be on the ads to vote out the current assigner and get someone who actually wants to improve officals as opposed to earning a check.
Some guys go to camps, spend time on internet forums, watch film, and work out to become better officials. Others show up when assigned and get a check. Its hard to hve everyone on the same page when they are doing this as suplimental income or as a hobby. Not everyone in stripes has ambitions of calling in the nfl.
I hear more ďsat and sunĒ rules yelled from the stands then i see actually called on the field. At least in my area I dont see sat and sun rules being enforced. Seems like that would be addressed on film the first time it happened.
So the ADs can vote out an assigner? I wished I knew how all of this worked. My issue is with how they are assigned to games. We have a particular official that reffed every game with the exception of playoffs. He traveled to wherever we played and called that game. Not only did he ref our varsity games, he reffed JV, Freshman, middle school, and somehow reffed our JFL games (I know that has nothing to do with being assigned). My point is he has been the official on the field for the same kids for many years. Whether he can help it or not he has developed a bias for or against these kids/parents and tends to call according to his bias. There should be some sort of required rotation so that doesnít happen. I can see if you have the same refs maybe 3 to 4 games a season, I understand there are not enough officials to have different ones every game however this particular official has traveled to ref every game and not only in football but basketball as well. He even uses nicknames when being announced, he thinks heís fooling the parents/crowd. Itís ridiculous.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:54 PM
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Two best officiated games were this year w 7.

From personal experience it was 2-3 that usually were flag happy in lesser crews matched up with 4-5 others from a good crew....the 2-3 lesser officials saw that people didnít pay money to come see them throw laundry all over the field.
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Old 12-13-2017, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by stripedofficial View Post
Yes that $70 bucks on friday is really worth all the extra training you want officals to go through. Sadly you get what you pay for. Its up to local associations on how they want to train the officials. Thats the big problem. I spent over 5 years calling and never once was properly trained or ever touched a field prior to calling games. It was learn as you go. Then we got a new assigner and it was like night and day difference. All kinds of on field training and film studies. So if you have less then quality refs, you need to be on the ads to vote out the current assigner and get someone who actually wants to improve officals as opposed to earning a check.
Some guys go to camps, spend time on internet forums, watch film, and work out to become better officials. Others show up when assigned and get a check. Its hard to hve everyone on the same page when they are doing this as suplimental income or as a hobby. Not everyone in stripes has ambitions of calling in the nfl.
I hear more ďsat and sunĒ rules yelled from the stands then i see actually called on the field. At least in my area I dont see sat and sun rules being enforced. Seems like that would be addressed on film the first time it happened.
Thank you for that insight. That is some great information. Unfortunately, I think we are seeing more of the guys picking up a check than the properly trained ones. You sound like the kind of official we all dream of, one who is putting in the time, does his homework, and takes the job seriously. As a fan, I thank you for that!

As for Sat & Sun rules, here are some of the most common I have seen over the years: 5 yrd bump rule on receivers, automatic first down on personal fouls, spotting of missed field goals, uncatchable negates pass interference, defense can jump into neutral zone and get back, and grounding outside the tackle box. It would be great if you could help spread the word on these. Thanks again for what you do.
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Old 12-13-2017, 10:06 PM
stripedofficial stripedofficial is offline
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Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
Thank you for that insight. That is some great information. Unfortunately, I think we are seeing more of the guys picking up a check than the properly trained ones. You sound like the kind of official we all dream of, one who is putting in the time, does his homework, and takes the job seriously. As a fan, I thank you for that!

As for Sat & Sun rules, here are some of the most common I have seen over the years: 5 yrd bump rule on receivers, automatic first down on personal fouls, spotting of missed field goals, uncatchable negates pass interference, defense can jump into neutral zone and get back, and grounding outside the tackle box. It would be great if you could help spread the word on these. Thanks again for what you do.
Those are the most often confused.

Intentional grounding ( no box in hs) ig is ig no matter where and when. If no receiver is in the area its ig.

Def pass interference changed to where face guarding wo contact is no longer a penalty. Also it is not an automatic first down on dpi. Most fans and even some coaches still argue this at the hs level. 2nd and 30 with dpi becomes 2nd and 15 not 1st and 10.

Any kick that crosses the endzone is dead

Obviously you cant cross neutral zone and come back in hs.

Horsecollar. Ask 10 refs and youll get 10 opinions on how to call that. I know how i was taught to call it and its all about protecting the knees.

I love officiating. It has many positives. However with that being said. With social media and cameras it seems everyone is just waiting for an honest mistake to happen so they can blast the person and accuse them of cheating.
Ive said it a million times, i dont see an adult blantily go out of the way to cheat a group of kids. Ecspecially with at least 2-3 cameras on you at all times now. Do they miss call? Absolutely. But, imo they just miss those calls or arent in position to make the correct call. It seems everyones first thought is we are getting cheated.
Just remember hs refs are car salesman, bankers, cops, walmart employees, teachers, and whatever else first. You cant expect them to get everything correct. We have a huge shortage of refs across all sports. Calling them out in person or on computer is only making it harder to get fresh refs involved.

To the fans who believe you pay for the ability to yell at the refs. You are only making it worse for your team. I promise you no ref has ever chaged a call bc of something a fan has said. But i have seen MANY miss or make a no call that would of benefited the same team bc of a fan or coach constantly yelling at them.
Who gets the 50/50 call? The guy/team thats treated you with respect all game or the other side who has yelled insults at you everytime you make a call?
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:37 AM
zebra'seyes zebra'seyes is offline
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You don't make a 50/50 call. It is or it isn't.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:30 PM
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A 50/50 call is a call that has to be made one way or the other. Usually one side will be upset. Think of a bang bang at first. I can call safe or out. Im going to hve to explain/argue what i saw either way.
Zebra, im glad you instantly know the correct call to make in all situations. But i ref in the real world where peoples emotions play into the way a games called. Should it? Probably not. But should other humans yell insults and threats to another human thats trying to keep sportsmanship and respect #1 on the field? Were telling these kids not to do exactly what some coaches and fans do week in and week out. I rarely see a kid lose control unless a coach or fan has started losing their mind first. Kids are a direct reflection of the coach in most systems. If you got a coach thats loud and screams and constantly negative towards people/officals. You can gurantee those kids think they are getting cheated and will start doing stuff they normally wouldnt.

My point is only that the refs you see week in and out are not professionals. Some do 0 studies and research other then whatís required. Some come straight from a 10 hr work day. Some really bust their butts and work hard on and off the field. Can we blame khsaa? Not really. They leave it to local policy boards on who to assign. Which is mostly ads and principals. They do have to approve the person but ultimately its up to the policy boards. From there its up to the assigner on who he wants to represent them and how well they are trained.
We are losing officals and not replacing them at an alarming rate. We will never replace those guys when the money/aggervation just isnt worth it. What do we do then? Theres not a huge pool of guys sitting back waiting to move up. I know ofquiet a few games that were cancelled or moved this yr bc to many teams in the area playing on the same day and not enough officials to cover it. I would just like to help control some of the negatives thats running people out of officiating so that we can start rebuilding.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:08 PM
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quality over quantity.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:16 PM
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Officials shouldn't be calling games at schools they are attached to; such as family working, kids attending, best friend the coach and the sort, an honest official would recuse himself from any and all of those games where a conflict may arise.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Oldtiger View Post
Officials shouldn't be calling games at schools they are attached to; such as family working, kids attending, best friend the coach and the sort, an honest official would recuse himself from any and all of those games where a conflict may arise.
I agree.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by zebra'seyes View Post
You don't make a 50/50 call. It is or it isn't.
There are 50/50 calls in football. Most notably heads or tails at the midfield meeting prior to kickoff. Unless the white hat doesn't have a coin and they have to play rock, paper, scissors in which it is a 33.3/33.3/ 33.3 call.
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:32 PM
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The more eyes on the play the better.
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Old 12-16-2017, 12:40 PM
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stripedofficial, while we have you on the line, what are you thoughts on cut blocks out of the shotgun. Legal?
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Old 12-16-2017, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBrahmaBull View Post
The more eyes on the play the better.
I've heard that some officials are blind
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Old 12-16-2017, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
stripedofficial, while we have you on the line, what are you thoughts on cut blocks out of the shotgun. Legal?

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Old 12-16-2017, 04:54 PM
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Cut blocks out of the gun are illegal, but they shouldn't be. The offensive formation changes very little when it comes to the technique of an offensive and defensive lineman. I personally think that's the stupidest rule in high school football. I like 7 better than 5 because it gives a better split of assignments and not as much stuff is missed.
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Old 12-16-2017, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
stripedofficial, while we have you on the line, what are you thoughts on cut blocks out of the shotgun. Legal?
That changed a few years back. I know the year it was changed we had a lot of confusion over it. Back then it was illegal. The reason they said it was illegal was because it was impossible for an o linemans first move to be to the cut.
In order to cut it has to be off the snap and immediate. You cant raise up and cut. You cant step to the left and cut. You gotta do it in one move and immediately. I guess technically they would have to take a step first in shotgun. Be kinda hard to go from 2 feet side by side straight into a cut without moving a foot back first.
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Old 12-16-2017, 09:29 PM
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Stripes Iím having a hard time following. Youíll hose a team due to a fan who is giving you the business but YOU want to ďcontrolĒ some of the negatives that are running people from officiating. Pray tell how YOU are going to do that.
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by stripedofficial View Post
That changed a few years back. I know the year it was changed we had a lot of confusion over it. Back then it was illegal. The reason they said it was illegal was because it was impossible for an o linemans first move to be to the cut.
In order to cut it has to be off the snap and immediate. You cant raise up and cut. You cant step to the left and cut. You gotta do it in one move and immediately. I guess technically they would have to take a step first in shotgun. Be kinda hard to go from 2 feet side by side straight into a cut without moving a foot back first.
So if the offensive lineman was in a three point stance in shotgun they could cut? How about the center? Is he always allowed to cut?
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Old 12-17-2017, 01:33 PM
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I donít remember seeing a 3 point stance in shotgun. Let me rephrase my response. You cant cut from anything but a 3-4 point stance. You cant cut from the normal shotgun 2 point stance.

Im also not sure how and when i said i would or have ever ďhosedĒ a team over a fan. What i said was who does the 50/50 go to? Not talking if something is a penalty or not. Not talking about throwing flags just because. And honestly theres not as many 50/50s in football as other sports. But situations do arise where you can choose to let something go or not. Im saying out of 100 officals. How many are going to choose to go the route of making that 50/50 call in your favor after youve been riding them all night?
As I said lets talk little plays in basketball that may not seem to matter. Out of bounds, charge/block, etc. Those calls are ones you can make and everyone may have a different opinion on. You gotta make the call one way or another. Who gets the call? Again were dealing with car salesman, walmart workers, etc doing this as a side gig. Not professionals who are graded and film reviewed every game. Your still gonna argue that those people dont bring emotions into the call?
Im gonna stop replying as it seems my words are being twisted into something else. Im just trying to help stop the the mass exodus of officials. And maybe help some crazy dads figure out why the calls always seem to go against them.
Show me where i said i have or will hose a team bc of a fan please ....
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Old 12-17-2017, 03:34 PM
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Thin skin stripes. Maybe you should just go fishing after you get off work from your first job. The fish wonít yell at you when you catch them.
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