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  #31  
Old 06-16-2013, 01:27 PM
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If LeBron or MJ either one played with Shaq in his prime...

they would also be be the Robin to Shaq's batman.
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  #32  
Old 06-16-2013, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Wildcatk23 View Post
Kobe beat? You should go look at who the MVP should have been of that finals. Pau gasol and Joey Crawford .
Really cause the MVP trophy says Kobe Bryant. Everyone only remembers game 7 when Kobe was 6-24 he was outstanding thru the first 6. I would also argue even on an off game he was still more effective than Lebron on his off nights in the series by getting to the line and leading his teammates. You also want to tell me playing alongside Gasol Bynum and Artest is an equal supporting cast to Wade,Bosh,And Ray Allen.
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  #33  
Old 06-16-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Stardust View Post
^ You are spot on!

We can debate this all we want, but when Lebron's career is over, we are probably going to say he was the greatest "Basketball Player" of all time. Titles is how we all rank greatness, so only time will tell where he finishes there. But, there is no denying that we are witnessing something that NONE of us have ever seen in our lifetime! We missed out on seeing the great Oscar Robertson, who did only win one title, and it was at the very end of his career and not until he got to play with Lew Alcindor did he get that title.

But to deny what Lebron does on the floor is so short-sighted, it's only for the haters to blind themselves to!

Wilt Chamberlain is credited as the most dominate player of his and maybe any era. Lebron players with that type of domination on most nights. There is no other player in the league that dominates the entire floor in today's game than Lebron.

Shaq is considered the most physically dominate player ever. Shaq was a 7 footer, who could easily out physical every other player in the league. Lebron is in the same category now, and at 6-8, can physically dominate most all players in the league that is taller than him.

Magic was likely the greatest floor general to play the game. Lebron's primary role is the floor general! His ability to get every player on the team involved makes everyone compare his game to Magic's. Lebron does not need a Point Guard to set the offense, he does it! Lebron did not need Scottie Pippin to be the guy who brings the ball up the floor to set the offense, he does it. Then, he gets himself in position to be a scorer as well.

MJ is the greatest scorer of our time. Lebron is not as great of a scorer as MJ, or even others in the league such as KD. But, Lebron can score 30 points whenever he so chooses. He does not do it at all times, and instead of him forcing 30 shots up like Kobe, Lebron recognizes his off nights and will shoot less than 20 times, but will dish out to those who can score that night.

MJ was not just a great scorer, but a great defender and his Defensive MVP's proved that he was recognized by his peers as a great perimeter defender. Wilt and Kareem were both incredible interior defenders. Lebron is a league defensive MVP player as well. He guards Point Guards and like what we have seen in the finals, will stuff shots by seven footers! Lebron can dominate a game defensively!

Leader ship is what MJ gets credited for, but his leadership was through intimidation of his teammates and his intensity level. Lebron is beloved by his teammates. They know he has their back and he is only there to make them better, not himself. Kobe gets slammed by his teammates as being selfish and aloof. Guys did not look to MJ or Kobe to be their friend, and they didn't have to in order to win. Lebron wins, and his teammates adore him! He is one of the most likable superstars to ever play the game by his peers!

Kareem leads all time as a 6 time League MVP, considered the best player in all of basketball. Lebron already has four, and he is only halfway through his career. He is considered not just the best player in the NBA, but the greatest player on the planet. Go back to the Olympics and listen to guys like Kobe, Coach K and the rest defer to Lebron in their comments that he is the best player in the world.

Kevin Garnett is a HOF'er the day he retires. It's a tough argument to say who the greatest PF of all-time was (KG, Duncan or the Mailman), but KG could not have won an NBA title until he left the horrible situation he was in and created the "BIG THREE". Wilt would have never won a title had he stayed in San Francisco his entire career. Lebron is in his third straight NBA Finals. With D-Wade and Bosh, he is supposed to be. But there is no question who the best player on the team is. Hearken back to when he took Cleveland to the NBA Finals. That team was the worst collection of players to ever play in an NBA Finals. Proof being that when Lebron left, the Cavs were the worst team in basketball. His haters will say he didn't win until he left. Well there and other GREATS that could have never taken the Cavs to the playoffs, much less the Finals.

Love him, hate him, debate him - but the facts above prove them-self! When you add every dimension of the game of basketball, there has never (EVER) been a player to do everything that Lebron is doing! Score, Rebound, Assist, Steal, Block - no one! You don't have to lead the league in stats, but when you can do them all at anytime they want, who else has ever done it!

Let a new debate begin, but if you compared the above facets of the game to Kobe, then that makes this thread obsolete, because Kobe does not fit most of those categories!
The only teammate that ever slammed Kobe was Shaq. And now that Kobe has won without him and has had the better career Shaq talks about how much he lives Kobe to save face. Kobe might be the best laker ever. You don't see the guys like Gasol or Lamar odom wanting to leave LA actually leaving LA and Kobe ruined odom's career.
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  #34  
Old 06-17-2013, 02:13 AM
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Better scorer to Bryant, better all around basketball player Lebron. Just the way I see it. Career boards,assists,steals will be owned by lbj. I hate when rings are the biggest measurement when debating players. Hornets keep Kobe and those first three rings don't exist.
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  #35  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:11 AM
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So winning doesnt count for anything anymore?
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  #36  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:55 AM
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^ It doesn't count for EVERYTHING! It is part of the equation, an equation that guys like Wilt rarely had the opportunity to do because of the teams he played on. To value everything on winning would unjustly say that Bill Russell, and all-time great, was a better basketball player than Wilt, and that would be an incorrect statement! It would mean that Clyde Drexler was higher on the all-time rankings than Oscar Robertson, which is completely inaccurate. So, winning is an equation, but it cannot be the end-all!
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Old 06-17-2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by KHSAA12 View Post
Better scorer to Bryant, better all around basketball player Lebron. Just the way I see it. Career boards,assists,steals will be owned by lbj. I hate when rings are the biggest measurement when debating players. Hornets keep Kobe and those first three rings don't exist.
Cavaliers keep LeBron and he doesn't have any rings at all
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  #38  
Old 06-17-2013, 05:20 PM
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Of course. I dont know in the **** he carried that supporting cast there. I don't see why people hate him for leaving that situation. Lbj dont leave his still ringless. Just like kg, pierce, and Allen. Both lebron and kobe are great. I give kobe the scoring edge and the rest to the king. Rings are a TEAM accomplishment not a individual measuring stick on how great a player was. Imo Mvps should be the most important thing to look at if your trying to truly define how great a player was after his career. But that's just me. But I must add the chip must be there if you truly want to go down as one of the greatest.
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  #39  
Old 06-17-2013, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Stardust View Post
^ You are spot on!

We can debate this all we want, but when Lebron's career is over, we are probably going to say he was the greatest "Basketball Player" of all time. Titles is how we all rank greatness, so only time will tell where he finishes there. But, there is no denying that we are witnessing something that NONE of us have ever seen in our lifetime! We missed out on seeing the great Oscar Robertson, who did only win one title, and it was at the very end of his career and not until he got to play with Lew Alcindor did he get that title.

But to deny what Lebron does on the floor is so short-sighted, it's only for the haters to blind themselves to!

Wilt Chamberlain is credited as the most dominate player of his and maybe any era. Lebron players with that type of domination on most nights. There is no other player in the league that dominates the entire floor in today's game than Lebron.

Shaq is considered the most physically dominate player ever. Shaq was a 7 footer, who could easily out physical every other player in the league. Lebron is in the same category now, and at 6-8, can physically dominate most all players in the league that is taller than him.

Magic was likely the greatest floor general to play the game. Lebron's primary role is the floor general! His ability to get every player on the team involved makes everyone compare his game to Magic's. Lebron does not need a Point Guard to set the offense, he does it! Lebron did not need Scottie Pippin to be the guy who brings the ball up the floor to set the offense, he does it. Then, he gets himself in position to be a scorer as well.

MJ is the greatest scorer of our time. Lebron is not as great of a scorer as MJ, or even others in the league such as KD. But, Lebron can score 30 points whenever he so chooses. He does not do it at all times, and instead of him forcing 30 shots up like Kobe, Lebron recognizes his off nights and will shoot less than 20 times, but will dish out to those who can score that night.

MJ was not just a great scorer, but a great defender and his Defensive MVP's proved that he was recognized by his peers as a great perimeter defender. Wilt and Kareem were both incredible interior defenders. Lebron is a league defensive MVP player as well. He guards Point Guards and like what we have seen in the finals, will stuff shots by seven footers! Lebron can dominate a game defensively!

Leader ship is what MJ gets credited for, but his leadership was through intimidation of his teammates and his intensity level. Lebron is beloved by his teammates. They know he has their back and he is only there to make them better, not himself. Kobe gets slammed by his teammates as being selfish and aloof. Guys did not look to MJ or Kobe to be their friend, and they didn't have to in order to win. Lebron wins, and his teammates adore him! He is one of the most likable superstars to ever play the game by his peers!

Kareem leads all time as a 6 time League MVP, considered the best player in all of basketball. Lebron already has four, and he is only halfway through his career. He is considered not just the best player in the NBA, but the greatest player on the planet. Go back to the Olympics and listen to guys like Kobe, Coach K and the rest defer to Lebron in their comments that he is the best player in the world.

Kevin Garnett is a HOF'er the day he retires. It's a tough argument to say who the greatest PF of all-time was (KG, Duncan or the Mailman), but KG could not have won an NBA title until he left the horrible situation he was in and created the "BIG THREE". Wilt would have never won a title had he stayed in San Francisco his entire career. Lebron is in his third straight NBA Finals. With D-Wade and Bosh, he is supposed to be. But there is no question who the best player on the team is. Hearken back to when he took Cleveland to the NBA Finals. That team was the worst collection of players to ever play in an NBA Finals. Proof being that when Lebron left, the Cavs were the worst team in basketball. His haters will say he didn't win until he left. Well there and other GREATS that could have never taken the Cavs to the playoffs, much less the Finals.

Love him, hate him, debate him - but the facts above prove them-self! When you add every dimension of the game of basketball, there has never (EVER) been a player to do everything that Lebron is doing! Score, Rebound, Assist, Steal, Block - no one! You don't have to lead the league in stats, but when you can do them all at anytime they want, who else has ever done it!

Let a new debate begin, but if you compared the above facets of the game to Kobe, then that makes this thread obsolete, because Kobe does not fit most of those categories!
Absolutely props to you, Stardust. For the first time I've ever seen in a LeBrizzle debate.. you presented facts. Not smart-elic statements accompanied by goofy meme pictures, but an actual presented argument like a grown up. You 100% make excellent points in everything you said in this post. Great job.
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  #40  
Old 06-18-2013, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Stardust View Post
^ It doesn't count for EVERYTHING! It is part of the equation, an equation that guys like Wilt rarely had the opportunity to do because of the teams he played on. To value everything on winning would unjustly say that Bill Russell, and all-time great, was a better basketball player than Wilt, and that would be an incorrect statement! It would mean that Clyde Drexler was higher on the all-time rankings than Oscar Robertson, which is completely inaccurate. So, winning is an equation, but it cannot be the end-all!
Wouldn't wins count the most though?

My analogy:

Say your on a Videogame team, perhaps call of duty. You have one of the best players in the world on your team. He can get kills and hardly ever dies, but whenever it comes to winning the game it never happens.. even whenever hes on another team. This guy is topping the charts in K/D ratio but he can't win tournaments, nor can he win games really.

So in the end, would you
A. Have the championship player/winner on your team?
B. Have the ultimate stats master?

Whenever Lebron can make the "Heat" a dynasty, and win more. Then maybe... maybe he will be the best. But when it comes down to it what's the important part when it comes to all "Games" in general, weather it be sports or virutal.

Winning.

Why isn't winning the end-all?
If your a superstar player, you find ways to win plain and simple.
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  #41  
Old 06-18-2013, 08:36 AM
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Lebron does win and has the ability to stack stats. The man is twenty eight years old. Do you really think the rings are done for lbj? **** no. Even if they lose these finals their still picked to go back next season. Kobes hardware is complete imo. We can really debate in another 7 years. lbj owns the mvp race as kobe only holds the championship race until lbj is done.
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  #42  
Old 06-18-2013, 08:48 AM
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So, MJ would still not have been the greatest player of his era had Scottie Pippen never showed up hunh! Because with no Pippen, there would have been NO titles! And without titles, then everything else that Jordan did would have never counted??? With only one title, Oscar Robertson's greatness is now obliterated hunh? It is blind ignorance to not consider great players who won championships, played with other great players! Put superstars on crappy teams, then they are superstars on crappy teams!
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:03 AM
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Didn't I say that the player was still a great player? We are talking about the greatest basketball players in history.
Winning should be top thing to consider along with skill.

Not skill and winning.

I'm sure they have been many skilled basketball players in highschool but didn't get the wins to ever get noticed.

Haven't you guys ever watched Talladega Nights?
If you aren't 1st your LAST.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:56 AM
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^ So please tell me that you are going to say that Oscar and Wilt are not talked about as "the Greatest Basketball Players in History" as you so called it. Now you have completely discredited anything that you have ever said! You are completely lost into your own littler world with zero sense of reality!




I'm fairly confident you will find yourself all alone with that misguided thinking!
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:02 PM
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Every coach in every sport wil tell you there are things that stats don't measure and we call them intagables. Jordan had it when he got kicked off the varsity team then earned a scholarship to UNC,He had them when he won a Title at UNC and he had them in the NBA. Same for Kobe the great ones like Kobe,MJ,Magic,Byrd,Duncan all thrived in the limelight. Even though LBJ is a more gifted athlete than all of them to many times has he broke under pressure. Game 5 against the celtics when he was with the cavs. 8 points in the finals against the mavs. Failed to even win a game against the spurs in 07. And now every game this series outside of game 4. LBJ is the best front running regular season player of all time. But it has been shown when you knock him down that he doesn't always seem to get back up like the Kobe's or mj's he is breakable and you never go into a game 100% certain he is going to kick your *** like you did with the others.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Stardust View Post
^ So please tell me that you are going to say that Oscar and Wilt are not talked about as "the Greatest Basketball Players in History" as you so called it. Now you have completely discredited anything that you have ever said! You are completely lost into your own littler world with zero sense of reality!




I'm fairly confident you will find yourself all alone with that misguided thinking!

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  #47  
Old 06-18-2013, 04:24 PM
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Compare LeBron to MJ and Kobe all you want, but I know one thing for sure; a 300lb Boris Diaw would not contain MJ or KB anytime, let alone in the NBA Finals like he is LeBron the last two games and right now. Saw somebody say it on twitter and couldn't agree more.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:31 PM
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Winning is meaningless to Lebron supporters when comparing him to the greats lol.
If you want to base it on stats alone, Oscar Robertson is the greatest player ever. More triple doubles than anybody by a wide margin. The man averaged a triple double his first five seasons. His career average is 25, 9, and 7. He's not mentioned among the all time greats because he don't have a handful of rings.
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Old 06-18-2013, 07:06 PM
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The Great One just keeps on WINNING.........
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:21 PM
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:19 AM
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Lebron definitely was something on the fourth quarte last night. Wish I could see that Lebron more. If he doesn't make the clutch 3 Allen never has. Chance to tie it. Props to Lebron for a truly great performance last night.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:34 AM
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:42 AM
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:45 AM
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:55 AM
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Kobes game....
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:34 PM
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If you LOVE basketball then you should realize we are lucky to have both Lebron and Kobe in the NBA. They are why a lot of people watch it. And we are all getting to watch two of the worlds greatest basketball players of all time. Why does it matter who is better? (Although its clearly Kobe lol). Fact is, the greats do more then score points, dish assists, or win championships. The greats entertain, shock, awe, and inspire the fans. Both players give back, to a lot of things for the children and communities. They are inspiring children who otherwise might not have any one else to look up to. THAT is what makes them great. Theres no possible way any of you can disagree with that. I hate LeBron on the court as much as any "Heat Hater" on the planet. But off the court, I truly respect the man for giving back. At the end of the day, both of these players will be talked about as "Legends" and no one will be debating who is better. Instead they will be comparing the "best in the world" (who likely isn't born yet) of their generation to the greats suchs as Kobe, Lebron, and Durant from ours. At the end of the day, Kobe is better in certain areas, Lebron is better in others. There is no way to determine who is "better". Each and every single person will have an opinion, and no true-fan can be swayed to the other side. I'll cheer FOR Kobe and against Lebron until they both are retired. But I cant deny how good Lebron is. And if a Lebron fan can set there and deny the greatness that is and has been for nearly two decades of Kobe Bryant, then they are simply ignorant and blind. Its one thing to "hate" but don't be stupid in doing so.
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  #57  
Old 06-20-2013, 08:02 AM
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Jordan Without Pippen


So MJ "could've" done it without Pippen.
Kobe done it without Shaq.

Lebron.... Gets saved by the rest of his team.
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:31 AM
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Youtube link maybe it'll work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGuiu88Bwbs
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  #59  
Old 06-20-2013, 08:53 AM
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Tex Winter, the all-time Chicago Bull great who was Phil Jackson's right-hand man and one of Jordan's best friends:

"It's often said Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen needed Jordan. I'm not sure Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan." -Tex Winter

Bottom-line, Jordan finished as the greatest player of any era, no one is denying that. BUT - Jordan DID NOT WIN without Pippin. What-if all people want - Facts ONLY work in what-if's, not speculation! Fact's are, when Jordan won titles, Pippin was on the floor with him. It's a fact period that it takes two superstars to win titles in the NBA, and on most NBA titlist throughout history, there has always been a BIG THREE!!!!
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Old 06-20-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CraftCreeker View Post
Jordan Without Pippen


So MJ "could've" done it without Pippen.
Kobe done it without Shaq.

Lebron.... Gets saved by the rest of his team.
There, I fixed your King hating propaganda

In all seriousness though, when posting a youtube video only put the text AFTER the equal sign inside the youtube frame.
For example, you tried to use the entire line like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGuiu88Bwbs

You should have only put cGuiu88Bwbs.

Hope this helps.
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