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  #61  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:30 PM
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I agree wholeheartedly. It has two glaring problems - the lack of respect for out of state opponents, and how it does not truly consider strength of schedule. I would think a close loss to a team that goes 10-0 should be worth as much or more than a win over a 3-7 team, but this scheme rewards those who play weaker schedules and avoid challenging opponents who might beat them.
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  #62  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by killbilly usmc View Post
I'm well aware how it works. Just because I don't agree with this crap system doesn't mean I don't understand how it works. That's the whole point I think the way it is figured is a broken system. Not giving as much credit to out of state teams is dumb. Only going off winning percentages without considering margins of victory is dumb.
I'd take cal preps rankings over this rip system any day.
I agree with every word of that. Just no reason to take a swipe at Pikeville because you don't like the system. Pikeville didn't come up with it lol...Calpreps will be 100% better gauge and will show the glaring mistakes of this system come playoff time.
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  #63  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Iam4thecats View Post
Since you don't like it but it does potentially have an effect on your team I just figured people would want to know what they are actually talking about because different words in the english language mean different things.
Never said I didnít like it. I called it ďgarbageĒ because imo itís too early in the year to be worrying about it, especially the players.
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  #64  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BellMiddle View Post
All out-of state opponents will initially be handled in the following manner:
Their direct winning percentage (for example, .750) will count toward the formula, but each of their opponents will have a .500 winning percentage assigned.
Were this not the case, schools would be chasing tens of thousands of opponents of out-of-state opponents over the course of a season, and there is no way to ensure the accuracy of that data.
The .500 figure was selected because it is the average value of opponentsí opponents winning percentages across all sports.

Trinity and johnson central especially, youíre rpi is hurt now cause of this little bylaw. Their out of state competition is incredible but is hurting in this little ranking. Trinity right now is respectfully #1 in 6A and Johnson Central is at least top 2 or 3 in 4A.
Pikeville has played one out-of-state opponent, and if Iím not mistaken they play another one soon. Paintsville also has an out-of-state opponent coming up.
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  #65  
Old 09-16-2019, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
I agree wholeheartedly. It has two glaring problems - the lack of respect for out of state opponents, and how it does not truly consider strength of schedule. I would think a close loss to a team that goes 10-0 should be worth as much or more than a win over a 3-7 team, but this scheme rewards those who play weaker schedules and avoid challenging opponents who might beat them.
But doesnít the team who played the 10-0 squad get to count their wins as 1/3 of the equation? The team that beat 3-7 is a loser in that component and possibly the other third component as well.
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  #66  
Old 09-16-2019, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by EKUAlum05 View Post
I have said it from the start and will continue to say it.

I don't mind the RPI for seeding if done properly.

Unfortunately, without a "power" component to this it is a VERY flawed system.

Take Martin County and LCA for the perfect example. Martin County has a higher RPI but LCA has scheduled exactly how you wish a team would.Both teams are 3-1:

Martin County has defeated 1A Phelps, 2A Betsy Layne, and 3A Magoffin County. They lost in a game they weren't overly competitive in to Harlan County.

LCA has defeated 4A Moore, 6A Madison Central, and a playoff team from Cincy. Their loss was to 3A Belfry in a game they competed throughout.

If LCA plays Martin County's schedule they are probably 4-0. If Martin County plays LCA's schedule they are 0-4.

There HAS TO BE a power component. Bonus points for playing up in class, bonus points for playing teams who advanced to the 3rd Round of the playoffs the year before, or some semblance of respect for margin of victory or margin of loss.
After reading more closely on the Colorado website they do take into account the classification of teams. Apparently Julian is too lazy or too cheap to pay someone to do the calculator math with a spreadsheet.
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  #67  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pjdoug View Post
it's funny how you guys keep bashing Dudley for scheduling weak teams when he has beaten some of the best in the past. You forgot what he came back to and has had to rebuild that program. He has to start getting his Virginia recruits back same as your team gets them from West Virginia
This is 2019, not the "past" genius. It was a joke to get some of the Bell guys going. Seems like the only thing that comes out of your mouth is West Viginia. You must have some kind of sick fetish for the Mountain State! And if you did your homework you would see that "at present", we're losing just as many to WV than we are receiving. Come on basement dweller, you've got to find some new material.
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  #68  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by WhomTheBellTolls View Post
sorry itís hard to hear you from all the way down that rpi ranking .. this teams gonna be fine .. itís going to be a long drive from West Virginia to log mountain if you donít raise your rpi
Lol! You right, it is hard to hear you from all the way down the RPI. Which at this point in time the RPI is about as relevant as your schedule. And I hope and pray that the Pirates end up coming to Log Mountain. Those fans deserve to see what a real team looks like. 😂
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  #69  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by single shot View Post
I'm fine with all this crap if it ends up being done fair...problem is it always ends up being another way for somebody with a little bit of power to stuff money in their pockets all the while making it a lot more difficult for them to be caught at it...
Like Corbin. lol
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  #70  
Old 09-16-2019, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by pjdoug View Post
Like Corbin. lol

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  #71  
Old 09-16-2019, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by single shot View Post
What brought you to Corbin? Bread Truck? Pepsi? Railroad? lol
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  #72  
Old 09-17-2019, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Hatz View Post
But doesnít the team who played the 10-0 squad get to count their wins as 1/3 of the equation? The team that beat 3-7 is a loser in that component and possibly the other third component as well.
As I read it, you get zero points for a loss, period. Correct me if I am mistaken.
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  #73  
Old 09-17-2019, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
As I read it, you get zero points for a loss, period. Correct me if I am mistaken.
It might be me that is mistaken.

I read it as a three part equation.

1. Win or loss value.

2. Opponents record

3. Opponents opponents record.

So even a 0-10 Team has some points in the RPI.
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  #74  
Old 09-17-2019, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by #55PirateFan View Post
This is 2019, not the "past" genius. It was a joke to get some of the Bell guys going. Seems like the only thing that comes out of your mouth is West Viginia. You must have some kind of sick fetish for the Mountain State! And if you did your homework you would see that "at present", we're losing just as many to WV than we are receiving. Come on basement dweller, you've got to find some new material.
if players were lost to West Virginia they wouldn't even have a team. Belfry is a wide spot in the road.
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  #75  
Old 09-17-2019, 11:55 PM
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With Jenkins canceling the rest of their season, the remaining teams on their schedule will get a W, 1-0 forfeit.
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  #76  
Old 09-18-2019, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by pjdoug View Post
if players were lost to West Virginia they wouldn't even have a team. Belfry is a wide spot in the road.
Oh I see, not only do you continually bash the Belfry program but now you are bashing the community as well by calling us just "a wide spot in the road". Real classy. But I wouldn't expect nothing less from you.
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  #77  
Old 09-18-2019, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by #55PirateFan View Post
Oh I see, not only do you continually bash the Belfry program but now you are bashing the community as well by calling us just "a wide spot in the road". Real classy.
I didn't bash anything. I told it like it is. it is a wide spot in the road. it has about the same population as Jellico. Communities that small can no way have division 1 players and compete for a state championship every year without recruiting.
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  #78  
Old 09-18-2019, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by #55PirateFan View Post
Oh I see, not only do you continually bash the Belfry program but now you are bashing the community as well by calling us just "a wide spot in the road". Real classy. But I wouldn't expect nothing less from you.
You're not even from there anyway. You just want to complain
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  #79  
Old 09-18-2019, 12:58 AM
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This is a deeply flawed system and more time and data will not make any difference. The system rewards teams for beating in state teams, regardless of class and punishes teams for playing tough out of state competition.

Trinity has easily played the strongest schedule of any Kentucky team and they are undefeated. A good RPI system would have no trouble ranking them as the top team in 6A and the top team overall.

Kentucky has too many classes and a bad playoff system. The new RPI system for seeding playoff teams has made an already bad system worse.

Compare the system to Indiana, where teams like Cathedral are rewarded for playing a tough non-district schedule because losing games to tough out of state competition has no impact on their Indiana playoff prospects. Kentucky teams will be penalized for playing teams like Cathedral because the Knights often have several losses to top teams from larger schools in Indiana and Ohio on their road to state titles.

Johnson Central and Boyle County will play schedules comparable in strength this season but JC will be penalized by the RPI for playing and beating two strong West Virginia teams on the road. But nobody will be penalized more harshly than Trinity for playing a great non-district schedule.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:29 AM
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Coaches can manipulate this RPI system if they can get teams to agree to schedule them. Schedule teams you know you should beat who play a weak schedule that might have a lot of wins.
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  #81  
Old 09-18-2019, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Hoot Gibson View Post
This is a deeply flawed system and more time and data will not make any difference. The system rewards teams for beating in state teams, regardless of class and punishes teams for playing tough out of state competition.

Trinity has easily played the strongest schedule of any Kentucky team and they are undefeated. A good RPI system would have no trouble ranking them as the top team in 6A and the top team overall.

Kentucky has too many classes and a bad playoff system. The new RPI system for seeding playoff teams has made an already bad system worse.

Compare the system to Indiana, where teams like Cathedral are rewarded for playing a tough non-district schedule because losing games to tough out of state competition has no impact on their Indiana playoff prospects. Kentucky teams will be penalized for playing teams like Cathedral because the Knights often have several losses to top teams from larger schools in Indiana and Ohio on their road to state titles.

Johnson Central and Boyle County will play schedules comparable in strength this season but JC will be penalized by the RPI for playing and beating two strong West Virginia teams on the road. But nobody will be penalized more harshly than Trinity for playing a great non-district schedule.
Agree. This system we have is ridiculous.
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  #82  
Old 09-18-2019, 08:59 AM
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The out of state stuff is getting blown out of proportion. It is the OOWP, or Opponent's Opponent's Winning Percentage that is being set a .500 for out of state teams. When you take OOWP into account, you're talking about the winning percentage of about 100 teams. Odds are that percentage is going to come out somewhere in between .400-.600, just law of averages there. The average winning percentage for the entire universe should be .500, just math, someone wins, someone has to lose. After you factor in all of the games in a regular season, the variance in actual OOWP and the .500 that is just assumed by the KHSAA might be about .005.

This system has its issues, but the value being applied to out of state opponent's OOWP is not one of them. Personally, I think where the value is not being applied appropriately is with the factors for each percentage. It would seem to me OWP should be the highest valued factor.

So instead of this being the formula:

GR((WP*.35)+(OWP*.35)+(OOWP*.30))

It should be something like this:

GR((WP*.30)+(OWP*.50)+(OOWP*.20))

Here, the largest value is being given to your Opponent's Winning Percentage, which is how it should be in my opinion.

Sorry for the long rant, someone brewed the coffee a little too strong this morning I think.
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  #83  
Old 09-18-2019, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by pirateforlife View Post
Coaches can manipulate this RPI system if they can get teams to agree to schedule them. Schedule teams you know you should beat who play a weak schedule that might have a lot of wins.
But that hurts the 3rd leg of the stool.

If you beat a 8-2 team who plays patsies, the Opponents Opponents factor will be very low and of little to no benefit for your team.
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  #84  
Old 09-18-2019, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RoShamBo View Post
The out of state stuff is getting blown out of proportion. It is the OOWP, or Opponent's Opponent's Winning Percentage that is being set a .500 for out of state teams. When you take OOWP into account, you're talking about the winning percentage of about 100 teams. Odds are that percentage is going to come out somewhere in between .400-.600, just law of averages there. The average winning percentage for the entire universe should be .500, just math, someone wins, someone has to lose. After you factor in all of the games in a regular season, the variance in actual OOWP and the .500 that is just assumed by the KHSAA might be about .005.

This system has its issues, but the value being applied to out of state opponent's OOWP is not one of them. Personally, I think where the value is not being applied appropriately is with the factors for each percentage. It would seem to me OWP should be the highest valued factor.

So instead of this being the formula:

GR((WP*.35)+(OWP*.35)+(OOWP*.30))

It should be something like this:

GR((WP*.30)+(OWP*.50)+(OOWP*.20))

Here, the largest value is being given to your Opponent's Winning Percentage, which is how it should be in my opinion.

Sorry for the long rant, someone brewed the coffee a little too strong this morning I think.
I think the old one first used for ncaa basketball was 25-50-25.
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  #85  
Old 09-18-2019, 10:03 AM
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Which would also be good, or even just 30-40-30. But I think the highest value should be your opponent's winning percentage.
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  #86  
Old 09-18-2019, 12:05 PM
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This is what is noted on the bottom of the screen for the RPI rankings. Obviously they recognize work needs to be done.

**RPI is updated hourly. Teams missing scores at that time are not included. This is experimental, not official, currently under development, subject to revision and must be regarded with skepticism this early in the season.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:08 PM
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No system that disregards male enrollment is going to be fair, no matter how many games are played. Alternating home sites by even and odd years may have been an arbitrary system but the rules were simple and they were applied equally to all.

A win over an undefeated Trinity team should be worth more than a win over an undefeated team in any lower classification.

And yes, the way that out of state opponents are incorporated into the RPI is ridiculous. If a team plays the most difficult schedule in the state and wins all of its games, then any system should be able to determine the top team in the state. Yet, there sits Trinity at #5 in 6A.
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  #88  
Old 09-18-2019, 12:34 PM
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Another thing: this was all sprung on coaches AFTER they had made schedules FOR TWO YEARS.
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  #89  
Old 09-18-2019, 12:38 PM
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Plus teams like central who have played two out of state teams really get no boost in ratings no matter how good those teams are. Isnít all out of state teams treated the same?

Ashland also has played two out of state teams. By end of year these should balance out well for what they are intended to do.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Panther Thunder View Post
Another thing: this was all sprung on coaches AFTER they had made schedules FOR TWO YEARS.
THIS is the big scandal and what Julian should be ashamed of.
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