[LWC]

Who are the Top 5 players since the year 2000?

[LWC]

IMO,

Tim Duncan
Shaq
Kobe (As much as I don't want to admit it)
Lebron
Kidd/Garnett (I can't decide)

[zaga_fan]

Lebron was drafted in like 2003 wasn't he?

[LWC]

^Yes. Give me his 9 years over almost anyone else's 12, lol

[WideRight05]

Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
Wade
Garnett

But it was difficult deciding.

[RunItUpTheGut]

Luke Walton
Brian Scalibrine
Robin Lopez
Sheldon Williams
Steve Blake/Mike Bibby

You start these guys and you'll win numerous championships.

[Hoot Gibson]

I would put Steve Nash in the fifth spot. He has shot 50%+, averaged 9 assists per game and won 2 MVPs during that period.

[LWC]

^I thought about whether to use Kidd or Nash, then I thought about which one makes his team better and which one is a winner. Jason Kidd basically carried New Jersey to a couple or three NBA Finals, and he also has a ring with the Mavericks. That is why I chose him over Nash.

It was hard to leave Garnett out, but if my hand is forced I would pick Kidd over Garnet.

[LWC]

RIUTG, with every name you listed, I hear Stephen A. Smith saying those names funny. RA-SHA-NES-TEAR-O-VICH, lol.

[Hoot Gibson]

^I thought about whether to use Kidd or Nash, then I thought about which one makes his team better and which one is a winner. Jason Kidd basically carried New Jersey to a couple or three NBA Finals, and he also has a ring with the Mavericks. That is why I chose him over Nash.

It was hard to leave Garnett out, but if my hand is forced I would pick Kidd over Garnet.

The list of players who have won two MVPs or more over the past 12 years is a very short one and Nash was in the hunt for at least one additional MVP. I have always liked Kidd's unselfish style of play for the same reason that I like Nash but Kidd's poor shooting throughout most of his career (40% career vs. 49% for Nash) and his failure to win a single MVP tips the scale in Nash's favor, IMO. Granted, Kidd has been a great defender during most of his career but being a 40% shooter who mainly shoots only when he is wide open is a tough hurdle to overcome.

[LWC]

The list of players who have won two MVPs or more over the past 12 years is a very short one and Nash was in the hunt for at least one additional MVP. I have always liked Kidd's unselfish style of play for the same reason that I like Nash but Kidd's poor shooting throughout most of his career (40% career vs. 49% for Nash) and his failure to win a single MVP tips the scale in Nash's favor, IMO. Granted, Kidd has been a great defender during most of his career but being a 40% shooter who mainly shoots only when he is wide open is a tough hurdle to overcome.

Outside of the last year or two in Dallas, when did Kidd have a player the caliber of Amare?

Also remember that Jason Kidd has a higher assist average (Kidd is the active leader in assists), AND Kidd DOUBLES Nash's rebounding numbers. Maybe the biggest advantage for Kidd over Nash is the defense. Kidd has made 8 All-NBA Defensive teams.

The MVP's are hard to argue but one thing about MVP's is that they are a voted award. At least one of Nash's MVP's was highly argued that it should have went to Shaq.

The stats from his two MVP seasons?
2004- 16, 3, and 12
2005- 19, 4, and 11

That first season, Shaq averaged 23, 10, 3 and 2.
The second season, Lebron averaged 31, 7 and 7.

Who should have been the MVP's?

[Hoot Gibson]

Outside of the last year or two in Dallas, when did Kidd have a player the caliber of Amare?

Also remember that Jason Kidd has a higher assist average (Kidd is the active leader in assists), AND Kidd DOUBLES Nash's rebounding numbers. Maybe the biggest advantage for Kidd over Nash is the defense. Kidd has made 8 All-NBA Defensive teams.

The MVP's are hard to argue but one thing about MVP's is that they are a voted award. At least one of Nash's MVP's was highly argued that it should have went to Shaq.

The stats from his two MVP seasons?
2004- 16, 3, and 12
2005- 19, 4, and 11

That first season, Shaq averaged 23, 10, 3 and 2.
The second season, Lebron averaged 31, 7 and 7.

Who should have been the MVP's?

Kobe had a higher scoring average than Lebron did this season but James outshot him 53-43 from the field. Did Kobe get robbed? As I recall Nash shot 53 and 51 percent from the field during his MVP seasons, which is amazing considering that Nash does not dunk and shoots many long jumpers and circus shots over guys a foot taller than himself. Amare was good but he was better when he was in Phoenix because he played with one of the best point guards of all time.

Another example, and another well deserved shot at Kobe, is that Kobe played with two players, Bynum and Gasol, who rank among the top 5 players in the NBA in double-doubles, yet he forced shots with hands in his face all season long and shot only 43 percent from the field. Bynum and Gasol would have been superstars playing with a guy like Nash. Instead, they are Kobe's scapegoat twins.

[LWC]

^Well said. Anyone that challenges Kobe gets points from me.

[Hoot Gibson]

^Well said. Anyone that challenges Kobe gets points from me.

Don't get me wrong, it is a very close call between Kidd and Nash - and I concede that Kidd's rebounding and defense are big pluses in his favor. Both have made the players around them much better throughout their careers and that is what great players are supposed to do.

Prima donnas are quick to hog credit when their teams win and the first to identify scapegoats when their own poor play lead to their team losing. Speaking of which, I wonder how Kobe is enjoying watching the playoffs from home after shooting the Lakers out of contention? :biggrin:

[K_Mac]

Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
Wade
Garnett

But it was difficult deciding.

Wade? Seriously? Heat fan much? -Wade +Kobe. To not have Kobe on this list is just ridiculous.

[TheChosen one]

Kobe is a joke anymore, I would have D wade over Kobe any day. The difference between superstars wade and james, and kobe bryant is they defer to pick team mates up when kobe puts his down. Kobe belongs in the class of Melo. Kobe just got lucky enough to be carried by talented laker teams. Shaq, etc.

[WideRight05]

^ Heat fan? If you actually read the threads you would notice that there is nothing I would like to see more than the Heat lose. I don't think Kobe is a top five player and if you think it's ridiculous I could care less. He has two of the best big men in the league for crying out loud, and he's still trying to force shots like crazy. He would do so much better if he would let the offense run through them. Of course, Kobe would never do that. As Hoot Gibson said, Bynum and Gasol would be superstars playing with a guy like Steve Nash. Kobe is simply too selfish. He has five championships, but he could have so much more had he not been so selfish.

[ekff]

1) Shaq
2) Duncan
3) Kobe
4) Lebron (Will more up shortly)
5) Allen IVERSON........

[Stardust]

I like the idea of Nash being included, but I honestly lost a since of value for him when Amare left and continued to still play at an All-Star caliber. I always considered Nash as another John Stockton. I had figured that Karl Malone was 100% result of Stockton. So, I thought that Nash made Dirk, which proved to not be the case; and I thought that Amare would never do anything without Nash, which has proved to be wrong. So I can't honestly Nash in my top 5

[Hoot Gibson]

I like the idea of Nash being included, but I honestly lost a since of value for him when Amare left and continued to still play at an All-Star caliber. I always considered Nash as another John Stockton. I had figured that Karl Malone was 100% result of Stockton. So, I thought that Nash made Dirk, which proved to not be the case; and I thought that Amare would never do anything without Nash, which has proved to be wrong. So I can't honestly Nash in my top 5

Take a closer look at Amare's stats. Since joining the Knicks, his FG percentage has dropped from 55.7% to 50.2% last season to 48.3% this season. He is shooting more and his FG percentage has dropped sharply. Amare is a selfish player, IMO, and with Nash distributing the ball, his shot selection was much better because Nash set him up for success. Look at the stats of a few other former Suns like Barbosa, whose best seasons came while he was in Phoenix.

Nowitzki's numbers did not drop off like Amare's did, but I think that was more a case of Nowitzki's still developing talent than him not missing Nash. I also think that Nowitzki's shot selection is much better and he does not need a great point guard to make decisions for him. In that regard, even Kobe's shot selection would improve with Nash running the show, assuming that Kobe would even be able to play with a decent point guard on the floor.

I don't think that John Stockton made Karl Malone. Malone and Stockton made each other because their games complimented each other perfectly. As good as Malone was, he would have had trouble playing on a team dominated by a selfish ball hog guard, like the one who so many young fans of today idolize.

I hope that Bynum and Gasol get a chance to show what they can do on a team that values teamwork. It would be great to see them both team with Chris Paul on the Clippers and relegate the Lakers to being the second best team in LA.

[Stardust]

Hoot, 100% of Amare's production loss has come as a result of the addition of Carmello. Amare has been forced out of the paint and transition baskets, which Amare was on of the best in the game, has gone to Carmello. On a garbage team, Amare's numbers were much better with the Knicks when he first started there and you saw a drastic drop when Anthony's took the shots from him.

[Hoot Gibson]

Hoot, 100% of Amare's production loss has come as a result of the addition of Carmello. Amare has been forced out of the paint and transition baskets, which Amare was on of the best in the game, has gone to Carmello. On a garbage team, Amare's numbers were much better with the Knicks when he first started there and you saw a drastic drop when Anthony's took the shots from him.

I agree that playing with Anthony hurt Amare's game but I think that he had been spoiled by Nash putting the ball into his hands when he had open shots. On the Knicks, he has had to create more and he has responded by taking more challenged shots. My point is that his stats have suffered because he no longer has Nash creating many of his open shots for him.

[Stardust]

^ you are right, I guess the point I was trying to make is that Nash was a contributor, but maybe not to the significance that we thought. I love Nash, and was trying to justify him being in the top five, but with seeing how Dirk and Amare were about to carry on almost as well away from Nash than with him, I could not put him in that top five. Nash did not make those two players like Stockton did Malone.

[Panther Thunder]

1) Shaq
2) Duncan
3) Kobe
4) Lebron (Will more up shortly)
5) Allen IVERSON........

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