[ronald reagan]

I really dug deep into the issue last night, did some reading in both the bible and founding fathers, along with talk with several influential spiritual advisors of mine over the past few days. I have came to the conclusion that although my intentions were good, I was wrong. I no longer can support gay marriage in good faith. I thought about it in regards to my own views on abortion and the death penalty. I error on the side of caution. I'm not for abortion particularly because I can't prove that murder is not being committed, thus am not willing to take that chance and support it, condone it, or participate in it otherwise. Death penalty views are influenced the same way. I'm not willing to put to death someone that is innocent, even if its 1 outta a thousand or so that it happens to. I love life and will not take another, except in defense of mine or another. I'd not even take a life to save many more. Gay marriage flew in the face of this rationale. Biblically speaking, and because I'm deeply spiritual as well as religious, I came to the understanding that the issue was either explicitly/implicitly wrong, or not clear enough for me to safely venture into the area of support that I've once shown. Like the bishops that fell to their knees at Vactican 1 when they saw the overwhelming vote on Infallibility that they had opposed... they simply said, "Now I believe." I'm not entirely opposed at this point, but can not and will not continue to try to advance or otherwise support the issue. Freedom is extremely important to me, but salvation is more so. I'm completely tolerant, and will remain so. What homosexuals do in their own time is completely up to them and I'll not be busting down doors like I was in Iraq... searching for sodomizers.... but I'll not be attending any civil ceremony's either.

[TheRealVille]

Is anybody else wondering who ron is the "political" alter ego of?

[Ballers]

^A message from the hills, ville..


YA DUMB BUHHH!

[Ballers]

Abortions and gay marriages are two seperate things really.
I do not agree with gay marriage, or gays period. And you are talking to someone that has gay family. I have 2 cousins that are gay as Elton John and Lady Gaga.

And I do not agree with abortions, unless you have sex with Zach Galafanakis or whatever the bearded feller's name is from the Hangover.

[TheRealThing]

I really dug deep into the issue last night, did some reading in both the bible and founding fathers, along with talk with several influential spiritual advisors of mine over the past few days. I have came to the conclusion that although my intentions were good, I was wrong. I no longer can support gay marriage in good faith. I thought about it in regards to my own views on abortion and the death penalty. I error on the side of caution. I'm not for abortion particularly because I can't prove that murder is not being committed, thus am not willing to take that chance and support it, condone it, or participate in it otherwise. Death penalty views are influenced the same way. I'm not willing to put to death someone that is innocent, even if its 1 outta a thousand or so that it happens to. I love life and will not take another, except in defense of mine or another. I'd not even take a life to save many more. Gay marriage flew in the face of this rationale. Biblically speaking, and because I'm deeply spiritual as well as religious, I came to the understanding that the issue was either explicitly/implicitly wrong, or not clear enough for me to safely venture into the area of support that I've once shown. Like the bishops that fell to their knees at Vactican 1 when they saw the overwhelming vote on Infallibility that they had opposed... they simply said, "Now I believe." I'm not entirely opposed at this point, but can not and will not continue to try to advance or otherwise support the issue. Freedom is extremely important to me, but salvation is more so. I'm completely tolerant, and will remain so. What homosexuals do in their own time is completely up to them and I'll not be busting down doors like I was in Iraq... searching for sodomizers.... but I'll not be attending any civil ceremony's either.

Ronnie, it takes a big man to admit when he thinks he has erred. My hat is therefore off to you and I applaud your open mindedness. :Clap:

[TheRealThing]

^I should add, if I offended you at any point during my arguments, that was not my intention and I appologize.

[WideRight05]

Way to go RR. That's awesome that you are putting forth the effort into continuous thinking like that. Switching a view on something, especially one you have held for a while, is extremely difficult.

You won't see much of me this week boys...40 hours in so far and I have an important deadline to meet. But seeing this, made my week.

[TheRealVille]

How exactly does gay marriage hurt the other American citizens? How does it degrade other citizens rights? How does it degrade other citizens lives?

[Ballers]

^It doesn't.
And I am not siding with you or against you but I was just putting my 2 cents in on this thread.
Like I said, I have family that are gay, I have friends that are lesbians.
I do not judge them for it, but nor do I agree with it.
If they want their chili holes played with so be it, long as it ain't mine!

[LWC]

I have always said about gay "marriage" that I have no political issue with civil unions. However, marriage is something that is sacred. It does not matter that it has been cheapened in American minds because of the insanely high rate of divorce.

Marriage is intended to be a sacred, lifelong bond, created by God, between a man and a woman.

I have also said that if gays want to have a civil union, adopt children and get a tax break, that is fine with me. I have some reservations about gays adopting children, but if two gay people can provide a warm home, love and care, by all means go for it. What that also does is get another block of people AGAINST abortion because the demand for babies will be higher.

I strongly oppose gays being 'married' and I strongly oppose and civil ceremony being performed inside of a church.

[LWC]

I honestly believe this would not be an issue if the God-fearing men and women of this country treated marriage like it supposed to be treated. Marriage has been cheapened, spit upon and demeaned by a large portion of the American people. When something is cheapened, everyone wants to give it a try.

I want to call out the Christians (literally translated as little-Christ's, aka people that imitate Christ, aka people that actually live a life striving to do what he said and live like Him.) and say that we as a whole need to take back this country, not necessarily in a political sense but in a moral and family sense. Strengthen the family, have husbands that live courageously, have wives that honor the home and are equal in a marriage. Wives that will submit (not be a slave, but in a sense honor, respect and admire) to their husbands AND men that will love their wives and families as Jesus loves the church.

This country is falling apart because we have not been living the example of Christ-like behavior for this world to follow. We have not been showing the love of Jesus to those that desperately need him. We have not been the salt of the earth and the light of the world, through his grace, power, mercy, hope and love for everyone. When we get that back, this world will run to Jesus faster than we can blink.

[TheRealThing]

I honestly believe this would not be an issue if the God-fearing men and women of this country treated marriage like it supposed to be treated. Marriage has been cheapened, spit upon and demeaned by a large portion of the American people. When something is cheapened, everyone wants to give it a try.

I want to call out the Christians (literally translated as little-Christ's, aka people that imitate Christ, aka people that actually live a life striving to do what he said and live like Him.) and say that we as a whole need to take back this country, not necessarily in a political sense but in a moral and family sense. Strengthen the family, have husbands that live courageously, have wives that honor the home and are equal in a marriage. Wives that will submit (not be a slave, but in a sense honor, respect and admire) to their husbands AND men that will love their wives and families as Jesus loves the church.

This country is falling apart because we have not been living the example of Christ-like behavior for this world to follow. We have not been showing the love of Jesus to those that desperately need him. We have not been the salt of the earth and the light of the world, through his grace, power, mercy, hope and love for everyone. When we get that back, this world will run to Jesus faster than we can blink.

And the Lord Jesus' opinion on two married gay folks adopting and influencing the mind of an innocent child would be what?

[LWC]

^Influencing their minds towards what?

When we are presented with truth, we make a choice. I honestly believe that a person cannot live in the USA and not hear the truth in some way.

We have straight, married couples that are beating their children, depraving their children and starving their children. We also have straight married parents that are cheating on each other, being drunks, being liars, being slanderers, being worldly, being gamblers, being deceitful, and so on that are legally allowed to adopt children. However, many of those children grow up to learn better and stray away from their parents lifestyle.

I am against homosexuality, it is a sin. With that said though, my prayer is that orphaned children, or children that are born because a mother changed her mind and did not have an abortion get adopted by people that will love them and take care of them. If they are gay, my hope is that they see the wrong in their ways and find a way to take care of the child anyway.

Basically, I would rather loving people adopt a child rather than the child be aborted or stuck in an orphanage to learn about drugs and violence.

[TheRealVille]

I love how people proclaim to know what god thinks, by "their" interpretation of what he allegedly said.

[Wildcatk23]

^Influencing their minds towards what?

When we are presented with truth, we make a choice. I honestly believe that a person cannot live in the USA and not hear the truth in some way.

We have straight, married couples that are beating their children, depraving their children and starving their children. We also have straight married parents that are cheating on each other, being drunks, being liars, being slanderers, being worldly, being gamblers, being deceitful, and so on that are legally allowed to adopt children. However, many of those children grow up to learn better and stray away from their parents lifestyle.

I am against homosexuality, it is a sin. With that said though, my prayer is that orphaned children, or children that are born because a mother changed her mind and did not have an abortion get adopted by people that will love them and take care of them. If they are gay, my hope is that they see the wrong in their ways and find a way to take care of the child anyway.

Basically, I would rather loving people adopt a child rather than the child be aborted or stuck in an orphanage to learn about drugs and violence.

:Thumbs:

[TheRealVille]

^Influencing their minds towards what?

When we are presented with truth, we make a choice. I honestly believe that a person cannot live in the USA and not hear the truth in some way.

We have straight, married couples that are beating their children, depraving their children and starving their children. We also have straight married parents that are cheating on each other, being drunks, being liars, being slanderers, being worldly, being gamblers, being deceitful, and so on that are legally allowed to adopt children. However, many of those children grow up to learn better and stray away from their parents lifestyle.

I am against homosexuality, it is a sin. With that said though, my prayer is that orphaned children, or children that are born because a mother changed her mind and did not have an abortion get adopted by people that will love them and take care of them. If they are gay, my hope is that they see the wrong in their ways and find a way to take care of the child anyway.

Basically, I would rather loving people adopt a child rather than the child be aborted or stuck in an orphanage to learn about drugs and violence.

:Thumbs: You've got a good head there. Everybody has their pet sins, and other things, that are just as important, aren't even on their radar.

[Stardust]

LWC, I was going to comment, but I honestly have nothing more to say. You said it perfectly! I commend you and respect your opinions. :Thumbs:

[Ballers]

Good post LWC.

[TheRealThing]

^Influencing their minds towards what?

When we are presented with truth, we make a choice. I honestly believe that a person cannot live in the USA and not hear the truth in some way.

We have straight, married couples that are beating their children, depraving their children and starving their children. We also have straight married parents that are cheating on each other, being drunks, being liars, being slanderers, being worldly, being gamblers, being deceitful, and so on that are legally allowed to adopt children. However, many of those children grow up to learn better and stray away from their parents lifestyle.

I am against homosexuality, it is a sin. With that said though, my prayer is that orphaned children, or children that are born because a mother changed her mind and did not have an abortion get adopted by people that will love them and take care of them. If they are gay, my hope is that they see the wrong in their ways and find a way to take care of the child anyway.

Basically, I would rather loving people adopt a child rather than the child be aborted or stuck in an orphanage to learn about drugs and violence.

Nice rationalization but, how do you square your rationale with what God says; Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

You're saying an adoptive child of homosexuals can reaonably expect to be raised up in a christian home?

[TheRealVille]

Nice rationalization but, how do you square your rationale with what God says; Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

You're saying an adoptive child of homosexuals can reaonably expect to be raised up in a christian home?

Does this work with all kids? Even christian raised kids?

[4_real]

Homosexuals cant be christians?

[TheRealThing]

Does this work with all kids? Even christian raised kids?

When a kid hears the truth from childhood, and is raised in that truth, putting the Lord in his proper place by choice, later he will not change his mind.

[TheRealVille]

When a kid hears the truth from childhood, and is raised in that truth, putting the Lord in his proper place by choice, later he will not change his mind.

Hmmmmm. Ok?

[TheRealThing]

Homosexuals cant be christians?

Romans 1:24-32 (KJV)

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.



No, people who live the homosexual lifestyle, are at some point turned over to a reprobate mind by God himself. Which means for them (after having been turned over to a reprobate mind), there is no hope. That doesn't mean that if while they are still receptive to God's call, and turn away from their actions/sin, that they can't be saved, because they can.

[TheRealThing]

Hmmmmm. Ok?

RV, if at some point God turns all practicing homosexuals over to a reprobate mind. How would it be a good environment for an innocent, during his most formative years? The deck would be stacked against him in a most counterproductive way, don't you think?

[TheRealThing]

Let's put it this way, if in fact, as God says, these folks are "filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful"


Folks like this are going to be good parents?

[LWC]

Homosexuals cant be christians?

I'm sorry but no.

Allow me to say it in this way though. If a person that is of homosexual tendencies is TRYING TO CHANGE and occasionally 'slips' that is a different story to me.

It seems as if everyone has a 'pet sin' that they have a difficult time trying to defeat in their life. (We know that the Lord makes us free from sin, but often times we put ourselves in the bondage of sin).

The choice we have to make is what path we are taking. Are we doing everything we can to live a life worthy of the call?

Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit,[a] striving together as one for the faith of the gospel 28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God

It is difficult to conduct ourselves by the guidelines of the Good News of Jesus Christ, if we are not standing firm in one Spirit, striving together in the faith of one gospel, and without fear of our enemy. We have the hope that God will save us, why should we fear? This world needs to see more unity from Christians as I said earlier.

I believe that the Philippians verses that I just pointed out highlight perfectly how the church is supposed to handle these issues: walk worthy, stand firm, strive together.

1. Walk worthy- when we walk worthy, this world sees the example we are supposed to live. They will know us by our fruit. They will desire the peace, hope and love that we have. They cannot see it if we live sinfully.
   
2. Stand firm- We do NOT back down from what the Bible clearly states as virtues that we are supposed to strive for, but also we do not back down from what the Bible clearly states about sin. We should never use the Bible to bash, we must use it to patch. We use the Word of God to patch the holes and brokeness in the lives of our brothers and sisters.
   
3. Strive together- We need to have a united front to combat the flames and arrows of the enemy. Also, the #1 aspect that we strive together to obtain, share and sow is love. Remember when Jesus summed up the commandments from the Old Testament, he said to what? Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Part of love is putting an arm around a sinner telling them you love them, but at the same time, one of the greatest forms of love that I know is telling the same sinner that they have a reality of hell waiting if their life doesn't change. We speak that with love and we build and earn respect and trust before we throw the talk about hell at them, but we do share reality at some point.
   

[TheRealThing]

I thought you were discussing allowing homosexuals to adopt children en masse. Being turned over to a reprobate mind is final and applies only to the specific sin of homosexuality, after that happens it's over. At any rate, what you or I think apart from what God has said is questionable at best. And all I was doing was posting exactly what He has said about the sin of homosexuality in specific terms, directly from His Word. There is enough equivocating in the world already, we should therefore endeavor to be as clear as possible with regard to God's Word, wouldn't you agree?

[TheRealVille]

Let's put it this way, if in fact, as God says, these folks are "filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful"


Folks like this are going to be good parents?

Yea, I guess the dope heads, adulterers, spouse beaters, and divorcees would be better parents. You got me there.

[TheRealThing]

Yea, I guess the dope heads, adulterers, spouse beaters, and divorcees would be better parents. You got me there.

No doubt about that.

dope heads- thought you said smoking dope was just fine? Obviously, these things are looked at in the screening process.

adulterers- even FDR had a fling, he wouldn't make a good adoptive Dad?

spouse beaters- people like this normally have a public record, prospects hoping to adopt a child can expect to be fully vetted by the authorities.

divorcees- this one was a joke, right?