[WideRight05]

Can someone tell me the difference between the two? They look the same to me.

[Mr. Onion Head]

Then you probably need to stay out of the political forum.

[WideRight05]

Then you probably need to stay out of the political forum.

Want to tell me the difference between the two?

Or do you need TRV to do it so you can click your likie button?

[Mr. Onion Head]

Such a broad question. But I'll bite.

I see socialism more as absolute control by the government over the means of production, and also as more of an economic system.

I see liberalism as moderate protection by the government to protect its people, and more of a social issue. Liberalism to me also means that government can be something good to improve problems that people face.

There are similarities, but I think it's obvious that socialists want complete government control of all resources, and liberals want them to protect those who need it. I don't think most liberals are socialists.

For the record I'm pretty moderate but lean left, just think it's ridiculous to say they're the same thing. I don't think most liberals (and by most I mean 99%) want to see the rich lose their wealth.

I do lean towards being liberal on social issues but like the saying goes "Greed is Good".

[TheRealThing]

Such a broad question. But I'll bite.

I see socialism more as absolute control by the government over the means of production, and also as more of an economic system.

I see liberalism as moderate protection by the government to protect its people, and more of a social issue. Liberalism to me also means that government can be something good to improve problems that people face.

There are similarities, but I think it's obvious that socialists want complete government control of all resources, and liberals want them to protect those who need it. I don't think most liberals are socialists.

For the record I'm pretty moderate but lean left, just think it's ridiculous to say they're the same thing. I don't think most liberals (and by most I mean 99%) want to see the rich lose their wealth.

I do lean towards being liberal on social issues but like the saying goes "Greed is Good".

Well, you might want to focus way more heavily on those, and way less on blowing off a very good argument made by folks on the order of Charles Krauthammer.

And FTR, "paying your fair share" is an example of what most liberals want and constitutes the rich losing wealth.

[Mr. Onion Head]

Not sure why people act like just because Obama is in office that liberalism is a new idea or that the country wasn't founded with liberal ideas.

I'll leave this here, and I'm done with this thread.

“As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.” — George Washington

[TheRealThing]

^^ Let me respond to you with the words of a man named Steelegrave.

He says the following; "Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Different forms of liberalism may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including extensive freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market or mixed economy, and a transparent system of government.

Classical liberals emphasize free private enterprise, individual property rights, laissez-faire economic policy, and freedom of contract, and oppose the welfare state. Classical liberals support equality before the law, and hold that economic inequality, arising from competition in the free market, does not justify wealth redistribution by governments. President Washington would hang today's "Liberal" from the closest cherry tree."




And I'll counter your quote with some Steelegrave offered.

"Do not let any one claim to be a true American if they ever attempt to remove religion from politics."
--George Washington

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."
--George Washington

"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force, like fire: a dangerous servant and a terrible master".
--George Washington


In short, the liberals of today have appointed themselves the official apologists for government sponsored support of special interests. Be they philosophical or minority based. And, somewhere along the line they came to the realization that such support had (for them) the effect of garnering votes from those whom they intend to "help." Nobody of reason would suggest that Washington would have supported abortion on demand, let alone seeing the same be funded by the federal government. Along with welfare and homosexual rights.

[RunItUpTheGut]

[Image: http://learnasyouwrite.com/wp-content/up...as-pod.jpg]

[Mr. Onion Head]

^^ Let me respond to you with the words of a man named Steelegrave.

He says the following; "Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Different forms of liberalism may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including extensive freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market or mixed economy, and a transparent system of government.

Classical liberals emphasize free private enterprise, individual property rights, laissez-faire economic policy, and freedom of contract, and oppose the welfare state. Classical liberals support equality before the law, and hold that economic inequality, arising from competition in the free market, does not justify wealth redistribution by governments. President Washington would hang today's "Liberal" from the closest cherry tree."


And I'll counter your quote with some Steelegrave offered.

"Do not let any one claim to be a true American if they ever attempt to remove religion from politics."
--George Washington

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."
--George Washington

"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force, like fire: a dangerous servant and a terrible master".
--George Washington


In short, the liberals of today have appointed themselves the official apologists for government sponsored support of special interests. Be they philosophical or minority based. And, somewhere along the line they came to the realization that such support had (for them) the effect of garnering votes from those whom they intend to "help." Nobody of reason would suggest that Washington would have supported abortion on demand, let alone seeing the same be funded by the federal government. Along with welfare and homosexual rights.

I can play the founding father quote game all day. Truth is we can both spin quotes from these guys to serve our arguments. I don't think the founding fathers would personally be proud of extreme liberals or conservatives today.

“The power of all corporations ought to be limited, [...] the growing wealth acquired by them never fails to be a source of abuses.”
— James Madison

“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
— Thomas Jefferson.

“The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams

[TheRealThing]

I can play the founding father quote game all day. Truth is we can both spin quotes from these guys to serve our arguments. I don't think the founding fathers would personally be proud of extreme liberals or conservatives today.

“The power of all corporations ought to be limited, [...] the growing wealth acquired by them never fails to be a source of abuses.”
— James Madison

“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
— Thomas Jefferson.

“The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams

Me thinks I have heard all this stuff before. Getting any pm's there Onion Head? You quoted George Washington and I merely pointed out that your having ascribed the ideals of modern liberalism to his person was out of line.