[The Urban Sombrero]

Well, I gave you that reference, but even in the discussions and writings which did eventually lead up to the final draft of the constitution, those two phrases do not appear.

If it is the same concept why go to all the trouble to come up with different terminology? Look at how often you use the terms essential liberty and freedom of conscience in your arguments and they do not ever appear in the founding documents which you so often cite. And I don't agree about the back and forth rationale either. The dictates of conscience idea was omitted from the text purposefully. A whole lot of things were said and discussed when the US Constitution and the Amendments were being hammered out that did not make it into the founding documents, because the founders thought those words through and realized to include them would surely give rise to the same kinds of compromise and ambiguity which you have proffered here in support liberal heresy.

But you said that man is free to redefine truth, and I say that is the peril associated with those who believe something like that. The revisionist is constantly attempting to redefine and restructure history to suit his liberal palate.

Belief in essential liberty (Ben Franklin) and freedom of conscience (Madison) undergird the Constitution. The Framers sought a State very friendly to Christianity and the Judaeo-Christian tradition. They did not want a Christian state. Those are two different things. Any Christian in this nation who believes they are governed by a hostile State must be living in a bubble, given the real persecution and danger many believers live in around the globe.

[Bob Seger]

"...you may choose to live your life as an infidel..."

You don't own the truth, Bob. And from the vitriol in your posts, if out of the mouth runs the overflow of the heart, when it comes to God's Word, you may know the words, but you "ain't" got the tune.

Says the man so overfilled with evil.

[Bob Seger]

Belief in essential liberty (Ben Franklin) and freedom of conscience (Madison) undergird the Constitution. The Framers sought a State very friendly to Christianity and the Judaeo-Christian tradition. They did not want a Christian state. Those are two different things. Any Christian in this nation who believes they are governed by a hostile State must be living in a bubble, given the real persecution and danger many believers live in around the globe.

Did any of them tell you that, or is that something just off the cuff? Joel Osteen message from yesterday?...Perhaps you and Kenneth Copeland discussed that on his private 747 on the way to meet Creflo Dollar for brunch.

It is ilk like that that has turned this nation away from biblical teachings and inserted popular culture standards conveyed to be truths...Picking and choosing the parts you like and the rest twisting them to fill the desires of your own filthy evil hearts.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Did any of them tell you that, or is that something just off the cuff? Joel Osteen message from yesterday?...Perhaps you and Kenneth Copeland discussed that on his private 747 on the way to meet Creflo Dollar for brunch.

It is ilk like that that has turned this nation away from biblical teachings and inserted popular culture standards conveyed to be truths...Picking and choosing the parts you like and the rest twisting them to fill the desires of your own filthy evil hearts.

"...your own filthy evil hearts"

Who's that sounding like a jihadist? "Infidel" and "filthy evil hearts."

Bob, surely even you don't believe that Jefferson thought he was creating a Christian polity?

[Bob Seger]

Come on now, it wont be complete until you throw out a race card or two.

[TheRealThing]

Did any of them tell you that, or is that something just off the cuff? Joel Osteen message from yesterday?.I..Perhaps you and Kenneth Copeland discussed that on his private 747 on the way to meet Creflo Dollar for brunch.

It is ilk like that that has turned this nation away from biblical teachings and inserted popular culture standards conveyed to be truths...Picking and choosing the parts you like and the rest twisting them to fill the desires of your own filthy evil hearts.

Very astute and likely spot on. The two phrases so often used by the Sombrero do not appear anywhere in the founding documents. They are the stuff of heresy, and like leaven, permeate completely once they have been stirred in the dough.

And as you have pointed out the subtleties of the liberal message, whether associated with the Church or with politics (vis-à-vis the US Constitution), are designed in such a way as to appear to conform to the record or traditional conservative values while in fact, they are subversive in nature. Couched in appropriate sounding phrases like freedom of conscience and essential liberty, they are none the less, total fabrications of the left. Sort of like when a crook dresses up as a cop, the superficial among us obey without question.

Therefore if things are left in liberal hands much longer in this land, the Constitution will be thoroughly neutered and the so-called Church will lack the direction or wisdom to help us find our way back to the truth.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Very astute and likely spot on. The two phrases so often used by the Sombrero do not appear anywhere in the founding documents. They are the stuff of heresy, and like leaven, permeate completely once they have been stirred in the dough.

And as you have pointed out the subtleties of the liberal message, whether associated with the Church or with politics (vis-à-vis the US Constitution), are designed in such a way as to appear to conform to the record or traditional conservative values while in fact, they are subversive in nature. Couched in appropriate sounding phrases like freedom of conscience and essential liberty, they are none the less, total fabrications of the left. Sort of like when a crook dresses up as a cop, the superficial among us obey without question.

Therefore if things are left in liberal hands much longer in this land, the Constitution will be thoroughly neutered and the so-called Church will lack the direction or wisdom to help us find our way back to the truth.

Essential liberty and freedom of conscience do not explain nor justify Roe v. Wade, in my view, but do Obergefell v. Hodges. Again, the Framers wanted a state hospitable to Judaeo-Christian principles and people, but not a Christian State. History records "heretics" burned at the stake, drowned, hung, sent into exile to perish (Roger Williams), this done at the urging of the Church and carried out by the State.

A neutered Constitution and a so-called church will not be the fault of a belief in essential liberty and freedom of conscience. That assertion is ridiculous.

[TheRealThing]

Essential liberty and freedom of conscience do not explain nor justify Roe v. Wade, in my view, but do Obergefell v. Hodges. Again, the Framers wanted a state hospitable to Judaeo-Christian principles and people, but not a Christian State. History records "heretics" burned at the stake, drowned, hung, sent into exile to perish (Roger Williams), this done at the urging of the Church and carried out by the State.

A neutered Constitution and a so-called church will not be the fault of a belief in essential liberty and freedom of conscience. That assertion is ridiculous.

It might be, if they were real concepts recognized in the language of our constitution.

[The Urban Sombrero]

It might be, if they were real concepts recognized in the language of our constitution.

"Take your umbrella."

The words "rain likely" not in the language. But given an iota of historical experience of getting soaked in a shower, so implied as to be unnecessary.

[TheRealThing]

"Take your umbrella."

The words "rain likely" not in the language. But given an iota of historical experience of getting soaked in a shower, so implied as to be unnecessary.

In my neck of the woods it is a given that folks are smart enough to know when to get out of the rain. You guys have the DNC for that.

[The Urban Sombrero]

In my neck of the woods it is a given that folks are smart enough to know when to get out of the rain. You guys have the DNC for that.

Clever (eh, not really), but irrelevant to the point made in rebuttal of "exact words not in the text of the Constitution.".

I'll assert this again: the Framers envisioned a State with Judaeo- Christian principles, and hoped citizens would anchor their lives in these values and principles, but they did not seek to create a Christian State. They valued essential liberty and freedom of conscience enough to encode it in a Constitution and grant it to citizens.

[TheRealThing]

Clever (eh, not really), but irrelevant to the point made in rebuttal of "exact words not in the text of the Constitution.".

I'll assert this again: the Framers envisioned a State with Judaeo- Christian principles, and hoped citizens would anchor their lives in these values and principles, but they did not seek to create a Christian State. They valued essential liberty and freedom of conscience enough to encode it in a Constitution and grant it to citizens.

I give you a 50%a. First part right, second part heresy.

[Granny Bear]

Bye guys. You all be safe, and I will be back in a couple of weeks.

[Bob Seger]

Bye guys. You all be safe, and I will be back in a couple of weeks.

Vacation, I am assuming?

You and your family have a wonderful time.

[TheRealThing]

Bye guys. You all be safe, and I will be back in a couple of weeks.

You should have beautiful weather. Watch out for Buckeyes running in your blind spot and have fun.

[The Urban Sombrero]

I give you a 50%a. First part right, second part heresy.

Alone of all creation, Man can say "yes"or "no" to God. In my view, God, as a Father, desired love and respect and obedience freely given.

Thus, in all matters where it is plausible and sensical, Man's freedom ought not be trod asunder by councils of men or dictators or magistrates. Government sometimes has to mitigate freedoms, lest anarchy reign, but this mitigation should be as minimal as is necessary to ensure "domestic tranquility" and the "general welfare.'

[Do-double-gg]

I call you a sincere, angry person who harbors within a very dangerous misunderstanding about human nature, human freedom, and how, in the name of religion, and for the sake of God, human nature, with a stated zeal for God, and an actual non-respect for essential liberty, has perpetrated some of the darkest atrocities of human history.

You are way off about me. I don't have an angry bone in my body. There was no anger in that post just pure confusion. I believe in God. I know the Bible very well and he clearly speaks out against homosexuality. He does more then just speak out about it ,he is actually sickend by it as am I. You may not like that but it is fact. And you are very right, people have the freedom to do as they choose for now but at some point we will all be judged for how we lived our lives and the choices we made and we won't have any excuses. People this day and time are getting more and more anti religion "in my opinion" because it's not easy to live your life by God's word. People want to wipe religion away because it goes against their sins and vices that they love. They think the can just separate church from everything and wipe God's name off of everything hard enough that it will just go away. You talk of atrocities that have been done in the name of God by misguided men and I agree but you have never seen the atrocities that will be brought upon someone in the future who just simply claims to have faith and a belief of God. The Bible warns of that day and I think we are approaching times like that right now. The people of power and ways of thinking are being put in place right now to get to that point in my opinion.

[The Urban Sombrero]

You are way off about me. I don't have an angry bone in my body. There was no anger in that post just pure confusion. I believe in God. I know the Bible very well and he clearly speaks out against homosexuality. He does more then just speak out about it ,he is actually sickend by it as am I. You may not like that but it is fact. And you are very right, people have the freedom to do as they choose for now but at some point we will all be judged for how we lived our lives and the choices we made and we won't have any excuses. People this day and time are getting more and more anti religion "in my opinion" because it's not easy to live your life by God's word. People want to wipe religion away because it goes against their sins and vices that they love. They think the can just separate church from everything and wipe God's name off of everything hard enough that it will just go away. You talk of atrocities that have been done in the name of God by misguided men and I agree but you have never seen the atrocities that will be brought upon someone in the future who just simply claims to have faith and a belief of God. The Bible warns of that day and I think we are approaching times like that right now. The people of power and ways of thinking are being put in place right now to get to that point in my opinion.

I am in no way suggesting that this present world is doing anything but perishing. Fallen human nature is not changed, redeemed, or helped to evolve by religion or government. Religion grafted onto unredeemed human nature is more insidious and dangerous than just plain old fallen human nature. Seeking power and riches in this world is a slippery slope, a dangerous spirirual path to take according to Christ and Paul and James and Peter and John. Lust for power and riches, when co-opted into Christianity? Atrocity upon atrocity. As I have often stated, essential liberty and freedom of conscience ought not be trampled upon lightly.