[Coach_Owens87]

The Fan, I know what I said. After all, I wrote it. The next post was explaining what I wrote. I called no one ignorant, I called the fact that people think the way they do about this subject ignorant.

I saw this online a while back and it will probably piss people off far more than I imagine but I am going to post it anyway.

DOES IT MATTER?
My father asked me if I am gay
I said, "Does it matter?"
He said, "No, not really."
I told him, "Yes."
He said, "Get out."

I guess it mattered.


My Boss asked if I'm gay.
I said, "Does it matter?"
He said, "No, not really."
I told him, "Yes."
He said, "You're fired."


I guess it mattered.


My friend asked me if I'm gay.
I asked, "Does it matter?"
He said, "No, not really."
I told him, "Yes."
He said, "Don't call me anymore."


I guess it mattered.


My lover asked me, "Do you love me?"
I said, "Does it matter?"
She said, "Yes."
I told her, "I love you."
She said, "Let me hold you in my arms."


For the first time in my life something mattered.


My God asked, "Do you love yourself?"
I said, "Does it matter?"
He said, "Yes."
I asked, "How can I love myself? I am gay."
He said, "That's the way I made you."
Nothing else really matters.

Say what you want to but it is not going to change my mind or the minds of anyone here about it. I'm posting my opinion, you don't have to think the way that I do about anything either.

To believe in god you could not believe in that last statement. To say god made homosexuals that way would mean god is unjust, how can his word condemn homosexuals but yet make them that way? I have no problem with homosexuals, I know many of them and are friends with them, but I do not believe they where born that way. Some may say science proves they are born that way, but it doesn't, there has been no substantial link between genetics and homosexuality. I don't care what they do, but it does make me mad when they ask for special rights. They try to say that their rights movement is just like the women and black rights movements of the past. Thats not even close to the truth, being black and being a woman define what you are, being gay defines what you do.

[thetribe]

Don't you think that if people chose to be gay that they would choose not to be? Life would be a hell of a lot easier, wouldn't you think? If you aren't gay then you have no idea what you are talking about if you think that people pick their sexuality. If you have no problem with homosexuals and are friends with them then you would support their rights. If you were a friend then you would know that they deserve to get married, have children, get health care benefits, tax cuts, and every other right than any other American citizen has. No one is asking for special rights, they are asking for equal ones.

[Coach_Owens87]

I do believe they choose their sexuality. Prove me wrong. You cant, there is no proof that they don't. Many people do change, just do some research. The only evidence that gay people have to show it's genetic was done by Simon Levay in the early 90's. but he was gay himself and his studies have never been duplicated. And as far as having kids, I dont like that idea. If gay people should have kids, then nature would let them, well it doesnt. Now I know you can say some straight people cant have kids, but that is a medical condition, which can be proven, being gay cant. Yes they do deserve all the rights given to them in the constitution, but gays werent an issue then, so who is to say where the rights begin and end.

[thetribe]

You don't know that they don't choose it. You believe what you believe and I will believe what I believe. I guarantee you that I have a far better understanding of the concept than you do. I don't care how many places advertise that they can turn people's sexualities around, that's retarded and I would almost guarantee if you put an attractive guy/girl in front of the "cured" person that they could pick up that they would go for it. Testing can be done to show medical conditions and what strand of DNA controls what and I can see why they can't proof that being gay is genetics, it's not a medical condition or a physical trait that we are talking about here. Gay rights begin and end in the same place that heterosexual rights do. I don't see why there is even a question of that. Gays have been in existence, not "an issue" since the beginning of mankind so you can't say that they weren't around then to be added into the Constitution. There isn't a separate document stating that they can't vote just like there isn't one saying that they shouldn't have the right to adopt children, have them through artificial insemination, or another other method. I'm sorry that you don't like the idea of gays having children but they should be allowed to have children and raise them just like anyone else. I can name plenty of situations where straight parents go wrong in rearing kids so one's sexuality shouldn't influence anything more than having parents who waste all of their money on drugs do.

[Coach_Owens87]

You don't know that they don't choose it. You believe what you believe and I will believe what I believe. I guarantee you that I have a far better understanding of the concept than you do. I don't care how many places advertise that they can turn people's sexualities around, that's retarded and I would almost guarantee if you put an attractive guy/girl in front of the "cured" person that they could pick up that they would go for it. Testing can be done to show medical conditions and what strand of DNA controls what and I can see why they can't proof that being gay is genetics, it's not a medical condition or a physical trait that we are talking about here. Gay rights begin and end in the same place that heterosexual rights do. I don't see why there is even a question of that. Gays have been in existence, not "an issue" since the beginning of mankind so you can't say that they weren't around then to be added into the Constitution. There isn't a separate document stating that they can't vote just like there isn't one saying that they shouldn't have the right to adopt children, have them through artificial insemination, or another other method. I'm sorry that you don't like the idea of gays having children but they should be allowed to have children and raise them just like anyone else. I can name plenty of situations where straight parents go wrong in rearing kids so one's sexuality shouldn't influence anything more than having parents who waste all of their money on drugs do.

I never said they where "cured" Most people that change chose to. It's called research, try it before you blast me. You're trying to bring in hypothetical situations, im not. I'm stating facts. Yes gays have always been around, but so have murders, rapist and thieves, does that mean those are genetic. No. All the research points to sociological factors, being gay has more to do with each person and how they're raised then it does anything else. I guess we will agree to disagree. Yes they do deserve rights. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if it wasn't for the media making this a big issue. And don't get so upset, do a little research, get educated on the situation and then talk to me.

[thetribe]

I'm stating facts.
You don't know that murders do not share common genetic traits. In fact, there has been research saying that they do.
Not all research points to sociological factors.
I disagree that how someone was raised plays a huge factor. People raised by their grandmother or two very strict, Christian parents can both turn out to be gay.
The media doesn't make this a big issue, society and ignorance does.
I'm not upset in the least.
Trust me; I'm educated enough, no research needed.

[Coach_Owens87]

I'm stating facts.
You don't know that murders do not share common genetic traits. In fact, there has been research saying that they do.
Not all research points to sociological factors.
I disagree that how someone was raised plays a huge factor. People raised by their grandmother or two very strict, Christian parents can both turn out to be gay.
The media doesn't make this a big issue, society and ignorance does.
I'm not upset in the least.
Trust me; I'm educated enough, no research needed.

Yes I do know that. But does that mean that all people that have that gene will be murders? No. just because they share certain genes doesn't mean anything, we share genes with apes, are we the same, no. Yes Christian parents can raise a gay child, but what does that have to do with anything. Saying that sociological factors don't play a big role is ignorant. You obivously arent educated, It's a little of both, but no one makes you murder, no one makes you steal, the same applies to gays, you do have a choice, ifyou didnt then life would be meaningless, we could say everything is already decided for us. and we have no choice in our lives.

[thetribe]

Christian parents raising gay children has to do with those sociological factors that you were talking about. It (sociological factors) doesn't affect nearly as much as you think that it does. Gay parents can easily raise straight children and straight parents can raise gay children. People can choose not to act on their urges but their urges aren't by choice, that's why I am saying whether you agree with that or not. You have no idea about my education literally nor my life lessons. I will guarantee you that I know more gays and more about the topics related to it than you do. I'm not bragging, I'm not boasting, I'm trying to say that without a background with the lifestyle then you can't just sit here and say so and so researched that and he said...

[UK_Pr0uD]

Looks like I should pack up and move to lexington....

[Coach_Owens87]

Christian parents raising gay children has to do with those sociological factors that you were talking about. It (sociological factors) doesn't affect nearly as much as you think that it does. Gay parents can easily raise straight children and straight parents can raise gay children. People can choose not to act on their urges but their urges aren't by choice, that's why I am saying whether you agree with that or not. You have no idea about my education literally nor my life lessons. I will guarantee you that I know more gays and more about the topics related to it than you do. I'm not bragging, I'm not boasting, I'm trying to say that without a background with the lifestyle then you can't just sit here and say so and so researched that and he said...

So just becuase you know more gays than me you automatically know more about the situation? So using your method of thinking we could say that I know 14 Veitnam vets and a historian only knows 3 so I know more about the war than he does. thats just not a very good way to look at it. How do you know that you know more than me, you cant base knowledge on people you know, stop being baised. You mentioned one thing that I really liked and agree with, people can CHOOSE not to act on thier urges, thats what seperates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom. Im sure everyone has urges to do things, I have violent urges sometimes but I dont act on them. Is it genetic? nope. It's called a choice. If we all acted on our urges we wouldnt be here, I could go on and mention some of the pyschoanalytical theory that speaks about this, but this post is already going to be long enough.
You mentioned something in a ealirer post about a genetic link between murderers, it does exist, somewhat. Testerone is the link, the higher testerone levels the more violent someone is likely to be. But, violence decreases in those with high testerone levels that are in a higher social class, so it has to do with both factors. Now what does this have to do with my point, it just shows that whatever the genetic link may be, social factors are still very important. Here is another example, what is the most important factor for a childs likelyhood to succed, it's the social class someone in is. The social factor cant be denied. I guess we can agree to disagree but you cant prove me wrong, show me a anything that proves being gay in genetic.

[thecavemaster]

Thanks for the breakfast offer. As I said, I will not veer from Gods word to please man. And I don't care if I affend anyone when it comes to the Word. I would rather stand before God and say "yes Lord, I believed upon your Son and his resurrection and I believed your Word and tried to live by it." than say " Well Lord I didn't want too hurt there fellings." I also believe it is my responsibility as a Christian to tell people what says the Lord God in these situations and if more of us would we might help lead one to the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying that, being displeased with
homosexuality, the Being you deem God doesn't
want people who choose that lifestyle to have
a place to live on earth? Thus, Lexington
should have a "godly" ban on homosexuals living
in their city? I thought God made his sun
to shine on good and evil, his rain to fall on
just and unjust? I might think, as an
individual, that "God" is not pleased with
homosexuality (and a whole list of other attitudes
and behaviors), but, I am glad that the "rain"
and "sun" of general favor on this earth fall
and shine upon all people. What really bothers
me is the cocksureness with which you think your
voice and God's voice are the same.

[DevilsWin]

To believe in god you could not believe in that last statement. To say god made homosexuals that way would mean god is unjust, how can his word condemn homosexuals but yet make them that way? I have no problem with homosexuals, I know many of them and are friends with them, but I do not believe they where born that way. Some may say science proves they are born that way, but it doesn't, there has been no substantial link between genetics and homosexuality. I don't care what they do, but it does make me mad when they ask for special rights. They try to say that their rights movement is just like the women and black rights movements of the past. Thats not even close to the truth, being black and being a woman define what you are, being gay defines what you do.

Jesus doesn't condemn Homosexuality. Humans do.

Put down your old testament ways and look to the "New" Testament.

WWJD not Moses, Abraham or anyone else.

God(Jesus) chooses us, We have no choice, we are all his children.

[Coach_Owens87]

Jesus doesn't condemn Homosexuality. Humans do.

Put down your old testament ways and look to the "New" Testament.

WWJD not Moses, Abraham or anyone else.

God(Jesus) chooses us, We have no choice, we are all his children.

How are you getting that I said he condemns them? I never said that, I know that we are all gods children, but what you are doing is making your own god. To say that God chooses us all to be the way we are would be to say that god chooses people to be murders , rapist, thieves, adulterers, lairs, and gives them no choice but to do that. Isnt that why us Christians say we are saved, we no longer have to worry about the sinful ways of man and this earth, we have an eternal home. Humans have the ability to choose what we do, which makes life so beautiful, we don't have to believe in him, it's called faith. The way you portray god is to say he does not judge people on their actions. So I guess Hitler had no choice but to commit genocide, thats what jesus wanted right? I just cant agree with that thinking. And don't label me as someone who hates homosexuals, that really pisses me off, I don't hate anyone, the only thing I was trying to say in my post is that NO ONE can prove that Homosexuality is a genetic trait. If you find evidence that proves without a shadow of a doubt that it is genetic then I will hush.

Some may say the bible does not address homosexuality, but it does here are some examples

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

We all need to quit saying we know what Jesus would do, we are all sinners and cant live up to the example that Jesus set. What God says about the matter is in the bible to read.

[DevilsWin]

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

^^This is from the New Testament. Congratulations you have made it to the Christian part of the Bible.

If all Christians believe that Jesus is The Father one thing is true.

Their Father choose them.

I, you nor anyone else can choose their parents. I can choose to deny my parents just as others can choose to deny that Jesus is The Father. But just because a person denies their parents doesn't mean that their parents deny them.

Therefore, we are all Gods children he love us everyone.

Man was given free-will by the creator to do with as we wish.

[cards_athlete]

One thing I'd like to get to is that gays can still love God. They can believe in Him just the same way as a straight person can. They can live the ways of a christian and believe that Jesus is the son of God and that He died on the cross for our sins. If a person who is gay, believes that with all their heart, and that they can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, then I believe it can be done.

And tribe, in your last post you said "People can choose not to act on their urges but their urges aren't by choice" I think I know what your trying to say here. The urge for a person can't be chosen. They can't help what they "urge" to do or want. Is that what you mean?

[Coach_Owens87]

devilswin you have to be the absolute worst person ever for backing up an argument. Your'e supposed to give facts to support your claim, which you haven't done. And why are you being so rude, is it because you cant prove what I say to be wrong. Yes god gave us all the freedom to do what we wish, but does that mean that we should? wasn't the bible supposed to be a moral guidebook on how to live. I think you missed that point, stop making god into what you want him to be, if the world was up to you we could all kill, rape steal and do what we want and still get into heaven. What would be the point in living a Christian life if that was true.

[DevilsWin]

I am a Man-Imperfect. Christ is the only one who was perfect.

[DevilsWin]

devilswin you have to be the absolute worst person ever for backing up an argument. Your'e supposed to give facts to support your claim, which you haven't done. And why are you being so rude, is it because you cant prove what I say to be wrong. Yes god gave us all the freedom to do what we wish, but does that mean that we should? wasn't the bible supposed to be a moral guidebook on how to live. I think you missed that point, stop making god into what you want him to be, if the world was up to you we could all kill, rape steal and do what we want and still get into heaven. What would be the point in living a Christian life if that was true.

Thank you so much Coach for straightening all of this out so that we can all understand. WOW! Your wisdom is beyond compare. I think I'll just send you a PM before all of my posts just to make sure I'm right. Gee Thanks Coach!

[thecavemaster]

devilswin you have to be the absolute worst person ever for backing up an argument. Your'e supposed to give facts to support your claim, which you haven't done. And why are you being so rude, is it because you cant prove what I say to be wrong. Yes god gave us all the freedom to do what we wish, but does that mean that we should? wasn't the bible supposed to be a moral guidebook on how to live. I think you missed that point, stop making god into what you want him to be, if the world was up to you we could all kill, rape steal and do what we want and still get into heaven. What would be the point in living a Christian life if that was true.

If "God" causes the son to rise on both Hitler
and Mother Theresa, the rain to fall on
both Pol Pot and Billy Graham, why would
anyone think that "God" doesn't want
homosexuals to have a place to live in
Lexington, Kentucky?

[Coach_Owens87]

Thank you so much Coach for straightening all of this out so that we can all understand. WOW! Your wisdom is beyond compare. I think I'll just send you a PM before all of my posts just to make sure I'm right. Gee Thanks Coach!

lol...ok there smartalec! What's with the rude comments? And yes I would advise you to send me a PM before you post any more ignorant comments. I would be glad to help!

[Coach_Owens87]

I guess Devilswin wisdom is so far beyond me that I cant comprehend it. All I was saying is if you want to debate, use some facts, don't just throw out opinions, they're worthless. But you wouldn't do that, what reason did you ever give besides "Jesus loves them, therefore they have no choice but to be gay."

all I ever wanted was a real debate, bring some facts to the table, I say they arent born gay, you say they are. If your right prove it, if you cant prove it, shut up!

[Midee1]

Enough with the childish bickering. Get it back on track or the thread will be closed.

[DevilsWin]

lol...ok there smartalec! What's with the rude comments? And yes I would advise you to send me a PM before you post any more ignorant comments. I would be glad to help!

:getwell:

[RavenBoy]

How are you getting that I said he condemns them? I never said that, I know that we are all gods children, but what you are doing is making your own god. To say that God chooses us all to be the way we are would be to say that god chooses people to be murders , rapist, thieves, adulterers, lairs, and gives them no choice but to do that. Isnt that why us Christians say we are saved, we no longer have to worry about the sinful ways of man and this earth, we have an eternal home. Humans have the ability to choose what we do, which makes life so beautiful, we don't have to believe in him, it's called faith. The way you portray god is to say he does not judge people on their actions. So I guess Hitler had no choice but to commit genocide, thats what jesus wanted right? I just cant agree with that thinking. And don't label me as someone who hates homosexuals, that really pisses me off, I don't hate anyone, the only thing I was trying to say in my post is that NO ONE can prove that Homosexuality is a genetic trait. If you find evidence that proves without a shadow of a doubt that it is genetic then I will hush.

Some may say the bible does not address homosexuality, but it does here are some examples

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

We all need to quit saying we know what Jesus would do, we are all sinners and cant live up to the example that Jesus set. What God says about the matter is in the bible to read.

I agree with you.

[Coach_Owens87]

^^ Im glad someone agrees, I dont feel like the minority anymore

[alfus21]

I don't have much of an opinion on this but if you want to take everything serious and live word by word from the bible then feel free to take a look at these...

Such as the one that says you have a right to see your daughter if you have one. "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do"--Exodus 21:7

Or the one that says you should stone a girl to death for premarital sex."If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found,she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you." --Deuteronomy 22:21

Or for you that work on Sundays. How dare you..."For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."--Exodus 35:2

[RavenBoy]

I don't have much of an opinion on this but if you want to take everything serious and live word by word from the bible then feel free to take a look at these...

Such as the one that says you have a right to see your daughter if you have one. "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do"--Exodus 21:7

Or the one that says you should stone a girl to death for premarital sex."If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found,she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you." --Deuteronomy 22:21

Or for you that work on Sundays. How dare you..."For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."--Exodus 35:2

Saturday or Sunday?

[Coach_Owens87]

Raven boy does have a point, saturday is the last day of the week. Churches over time choose to worship sunday as the Sabbath day

[alfus21]

I don't know, but either way I can assume you 100% missed the point of my post.

[Coach_Owens87]

I don't know, but either way I can assume you 100% missed the point of my post.

Nope I totally got your point, people shouldn't take everything in the bible literally. There are deeper meanings to the teachings in the bible then what appears on the surface. Keep in mind the bible was written 2,000 years ago for a totally different society than we live in today. The bible actually goes against everything america stands for, capitalism, one on the ten commandments says we shouldnt covet what is thy neighbors, Isnt that what makes this country great.

Ravenboy and I where just saying you assumed sunday is the sabbath day, when according to the Christian calendar it isnt.