[Playboy5]

OLD SCHOOL.....Damn, talk about putting someone in there place. I think you just did that in ways to back it up! BTW, to most of those people trying to save a tree or whatever in the world that our government funds for no apparent reason for useless plays, and who knows what else...WOODSTOCK IS OVER! IT IS TIME TO LEAVE NEW YORK, TURN THE BRIGHT COLORS OFF, QUIT DANCING TO A TOTING FLUTE PLAYER AND COME BACK TO THE REAL WORLD! All you talk about is polluting the air and everything else, but I guarantee you don't care to jump in that car and crank the AC up do ya! Let me guess, I bet you have a hybrid. I will guarantee that is what I will read in response!

[Coach_Owens87]

CO87: You say we have the ability to build a economy without coal. If this can be done then why hasn't this been started before now.

CO87: No one wants to see flat mountains. As we discussed in another thread, only 6% of the land in Eastern Ky is suitable for surface mining.

CO87: It only takes a handful of men to do the job that hundreds used to do. Give me a industry that employees as many people today that it employeed 30 to 50 years ago. The number of employees at auto manufactures have dropped, due to new technology, Construction companies are using less people and building more. Technology has changed every profession, and mining is no different, miners are able to mine more coal with less people just as the auto industry is able to build more cars with fewer people.


CO87: Lung Cancer, birth defects and asthma due to coal mining. I guess Eastern Kentucky having the highest amount of smokers doesn't affect lung cancer? Could so many women smoking, drinking or taking drugs have anything to do with birth defects?

CO87: MTR needs to be controlled or stopped. Which do you want controlled or stopped, if you want it controlled then you don't want it stopped. You say you against MTR are you ok with Contour Surface Mining?

CO87: MTR takes away jobs. I've heard this comment so many times, and it's completely false 80% of Surface mining operations mine coal that cannot be mined by underground methods. Most of these coal seams are not economical to mine underground, due to low recovery rates, geological conditions etc.

CO87: This Earth is God given. Your right God gave us this Earth, he also gave us the coal, oil, limestone, gas, trees and everything else on it to use.

CO87: Property Value of a home drops 90% near mine sites. I found a article where a reporter found just the opposite, property values were higher! The best thing would be to check with your PVA.

Only 6% is suitable for mining[B] Since no industry keeps up with the total amount of land mined, that statement cannot be backed up. The latest estimate of land to be mined is 1.4 million acres by 2010, I dont know the exact land mass of eastern ky, but I would guess thats more than 6% [/B]

Less people mining Yes you are correct that as technology increases the amount of people needed to do a job decreases. Which has nothing to do with my argument, if anything you proved it. Mining jobs have decreased. Thats all I was trying to say, nothing more.

Contour surface mining Since contour mining is rarely used, I don't think it really plays an important role in this discussion. I know contour mining was used a lot in the 70's and is still being used somewhat in Tennessee. The reclamation done on contour sites is no better than what is used in MTR, the high walls cannot be filled in so that just remain there. Contour mining is not as bad on the environment as MTR, but I believe we should step away from fossil fuels.

Home values A lot of homes that are near MTR sites suffer tremendous damages during blasting. A lot of the residents don't have the money to repair their homes, which causes a tremendous decline in home value. That coupled with the dangers of mudslides, and flooding causes the majority of homes to drop in value. The only way I see an increase would be in land sold on top of the strip mine, and that would be because before mining the land wasn't suitable to build on. But 90% of mined land is not used, so that argument doesn't hold up.

Health Yes all the things you mentioned does have an impact on the health issues. Here is the point I was trying to make, the water in eastern Ky is so full of mercury, lead, ammonium and other chemicals that eating fish, or drinking water from most water sources increases the chance of birth defects by nearly 50%. Children in Eastern KY are 50% more likely to have asthma, if smoking was the only issue, states such as New York, North Carolina, and South Carolina, all with high smoker percentages should have comparable rates, they don't.

God given earth[B] We could argue about this forever, it's all in how one takes the word of god, [/B]

[TidesHoss32]

Your right...It was an idiotic question. But you environmentalists insist on us listening to your idiotic rhetoric about destroying these mountains. And quit blaming all of peoples health problems on coal mining. I guess you forgot to point out that this place (the Appalachian region) is #1 in the ENTIRE NATION in drug abuse. Mix that in with inbreeding, high rate of smoking, among many other self-imposed hazards and VIOLA! There you have it, an instant answer to WHY Appalachia has health problems. Your in pre-med, and I guess that makes you smarter than me in a sense. But you people want to shut mining down (no matter what you say) before we have those alternative methods for energy. You want repeating? You CONSTANTLY say "theres got to be a better way". Well no kidding! Why arent your people on it? Chop Chop..And you want absurd? Tourism will bring in enough money to run those alternative methods? :lmao: ...No offense, but that is the most hysterical thing I have read in my year and a half on BGR. I live in Letcher County, but how will tourism bring in that kind of money, when Jenkins has one restaurant, Whitesburg has a handful, Knott County has what? A handful? What will these tourists do around here? What DO they do here? Did I forget to mention that these tourists have about 8 hotel choices in four or five counties? Theres only so many mountains you can look at, and for only so long. Go ahead and tell me Im repeating myself, but my repeats make a helluva lot more sense than yours. You name the same old facts every single time you post anything. And so do I. You say that I dont know what Im talking about, that I speak from my "gut". Pal, let me give you something to chew on. I am trying to protect my job. I have been completely blessed because I have been given a job. And if that means that I have to go head to head with some pre-med student trying to take my job (which you are), then by God, so be it. You say I told you nothing, because you refuse to believe that the area that you REALLY LIVE IN, is a drug-infested, poor, crime-ridden area of lazy welfare cases that refuse to work, and destroys any hope of anything OTHER than mining to open doors for our future. That, my friend, is the REAL Appalachia. Call me whatever you like, but NOBODY can deny that.

Tidehoss, you still didn't prove anything beyond the point that you are ANGRY and baised. All you are thinking of is the NOW, and yourself. I totally agree with a lot of what you said. Yes this generation is greedy, wasteful, and lazy, which is big reason for why we are in such an energy mess at the moment. To answer your idiotic question " would I want a sports car that went 200 mph and and got 60 MPG", I sure as hell would, as long as it ran on "green" fuel. lol, youre actually funny, you spent so much of your time to write that long reply, and you told me absoultely nothing. You just keep repeating yourself. All you MTR supporters keep saying the same thing, you all use the same old worn out slogans.
All you have said this whole time is "take coal away and we have nothing". Where did I ever say to take coal away, all I want is to stop the destruction of Appalachia until a better source of energy can be ready for mass consumption. You're whole argument lies on the theory that without coal we have nothing, I want to know why people think that? Are we so dumb and dependent, that we cant find nothing else to do besides mine? Or do people believe that coal is our "savior" because we were feared into thinking that? People of this region are repeatedly told we have nothing without coal. Thats totally absurd. We have the ability to build an economy without coal, tourism could be a start, but no one wants to see flat mountains.

You're whole argument is actually absurd, yes I know that your job feeds your family, so what, every person that has a job relies on that to feed their family.
I'm sure you are a hard working man, just like the dozens of family members I have that work in the mines. But things are different now, it takes a handful of men to do the job that hundreds used to do. Coal is not our savior right now, were one of the poorest regions in the country, our unemployment rate has been the same for the last 30 years, and the future doesn't look any brighter, how is that a savior?


Now to the points you made, the big reason other energy sources aren't being used, or being further researched in this area is because of the greedy oil and coal companies. Too much money is being made to get away from mining. It's that simple. Now you agree that Appalachia is one of the poorest regions in the country, and you know exactly why that is, It's mining. There aren't any other job opportunites here because we don't have the trained workers to do them, most people who get an education move away from here to get jobs, including me. The average age of a coal miner is 55, which shows that young people arent working in the mines, and since you claim mining is our "savior" what happens when all those workers retire, there wont be anyone to work in the mines. We need to get better jobs in this area, which wont happen until MTR practices are controlled.

I'm currently in pre-med, I would love to come back to this area and work, and with the way mining is going I would never be out of work, our streams and air are polluted, so I would have a constant stream of sick patients. Just to let you know 6 counties in eastern Ky rank in the top ten nationally in lung cancer, children here are 50% more likely to get asthma, and mothers are more likely to have birth defects, and why is all of this happening, it's because these "great" coal companies are polluting Appalachia. I ask a lot of people to do this, and I would guess that very few do, but I will ask again, go look at google earth and view the destruction.

The point im trying to make is that MTR needs to be controlled and stopped, yes as of right now we need the coal, but there has got to be a better way, MTR takes away jobs, and destroys our environment, and is rapidly destroying our culture. You admitted that you dont use facts, and that you think from the "gut, which shows that you don't know what you're talking about, all you're doing is trying to protect your job, which I completely understand. I know that a lot of people here wont listen to me, a lot of people will write me off as some crazy "tree hugger", which is fine with me. There is a group that sides with me, and it's a rapidly growing group of people just like you, people who want better for this region. this earth is god given, and all im trying to do is protect it and it's inhabitants.

Now I didn't put a lot of facts into this argument, but I do know what I'm talking about, anytime you want to debate over the practice of MTR just ask. The bad totally outweighs the good in the case of MTR, I can give you thousands of incidents, and stats on just how MTR is destroying this region. MTR is accountably for floods, mudslides, contaminated water, and many other things. The property value of a home near a mine site drops on average by 90%, most people here have very little, and their home is their only possession, imagine how they feel when the lose all the have. Here is one you can probably understand, and it should hit home, Mining jobs have decreased by over 50% since 1970, thats when MTR really started. Is that the great job maker coal claims to be?

[Old School]

Only 6% is suitable for mining[B] Since no industry keeps up with the total amount of land mined, that statement cannot be backed up. The latest estimate of land to be mined is 1.4 million acres by 2010, I dont know the exact land mass of eastern ky, but I would guess thats more than 6% [/B]

Less people mining Yes you are correct that as technology increases the amount of people needed to do a job decreases. Which has nothing to do with my argument, if anything you proved it. Mining jobs have decreased. Thats all I was trying to say, nothing more.

Contour surface mining Since contour mining is rarely used, I don't think it really plays an important role in this discussion. I know contour mining was used a lot in the 70's and is still being used somewhat in Tennessee. The reclamation done on contour sites is no better than what is used in MTR, the high walls cannot be filled in so that just remain there. Contour mining is not as bad on the environment as MTR, but I believe we should step away from fossil fuels.

Home values A lot of homes that are near MTR sites suffer tremendous damages during blasting. A lot of the residents don't have the money to repair their homes, which causes a tremendous decline in home value. That coupled with the dangers of mudslides, and flooding causes the majority of homes to drop in value. The only way I see an increase would be in land sold on top of the strip mine, and that would be because before mining the land wasn't suitable to build on. But 90% of mined land is not used, so that argument doesn't hold up.

Health Yes all the things you mentioned does have an impact on the health issues. Here is the point I was trying to make, the water in eastern Ky is so full of mercury, lead, ammonium and other chemicals that eating fish, or drinking water from most water sources increases the chance of birth defects by nearly 50%. Children in Eastern KY are 50% more likely to have asthma, if smoking was the only issue, states such as New York, North Carolina, and South Carolina, all with high smoker percentages should have comparable rates, they don't.

God given earth[B] We could argue about this forever, it's all in how one takes the word of god, [/B]

CO87: Since no industry keeps up with total land being mined. You may want to contact the Office of Surface Mining and Reclamation, I'm sure they should have that number somewhere. Everyone has to keep in mind that not every mountain top or ridgeline has mineable coal reserves. I've seen several instances where there would be 5 foot of coal one ridge and less than a foot on the next ridge over. Coal seams are very sporadic especially around the top of the mountains.

CO87: Less People Mining ????

CO87: Contour Surface Mining rarely used today and doesn't play an important role in this discussion. Several companies mine by the Contour method, really the majority of companies that use MTR are the larger ones like Massey, Arch etc., the company that I work for has 5 surface mines all of them use the Contour mining method.

CO87: highwalls can not be filled in and just remain there. You got to be kidding me, Where did you come up with this information, FYI Federal Law passed in 1977 requires highwalls to be reclaimed, if you see any old highwalls along the hillsides then it had to be mined before 1977 or someone forfeited their bond if it was mined after 1977.

CO87: Home Values First if there is anyone out there that lives within a 3/4 mile radius of a surface mine they should have a Pre Blast survey on their house before mining starts or as soon as possible. Coal companies will pay a independent contractor that is licensed to preform a pre blast survey to come to your home, during this survey they will examine the interior for any defects (cracks, water leaks, doors that don't shut well, etc.) pictures or video's will be shoud be taken. The outside of the house will be examined they should pay special attention to the foundation and roof. I would strongly recommend this to anyone living near a mining operation where there is blasting, this can help the home owner prove the damage has been done since blasting started or it can prove the damage was already there prior to blasting. The ATF requires that companies record the amount of explosives and what is used in each shot, the certified blaster will either shoot by scaled distances (houses or building are located on a map with the permitted area) the blaster will use a GPS unit for his location and a distance is then determined to the nearest house or protected structure, or a box is set up at the nearest house to measure the ground vibrations this reading is recorded in the box. If a person calls in a blasting complaint to the state office, all they have to do is to either check the box or the blasting logs and if the company is out of compliance they will be liable for damages.

CO87: 90% of mined land is not used I have no idea where you came up with that number? Must be from a environmental web site.

The waters in Eastern Kentucky and Southern West Virginia are polluted, they are not as bad as they once were, but I think the biggest problem with the streams is the fact that there are still to many sewer lines that run straight into them. Just the other day a man who owned a septic cleaning service was caught dumping raw sewage into the Big Sandy River a few miles above the water plant intake, and he had been doing this for months.
Am I understanding you to say that mining is to blame of all of the chemicals in the streams and rivers?

[Playboy5]

Such a good debate, and really enjoy reading. Well, if you are against coal mining that is because I am just not seeing how anyone could be against it! I would like to see a poll of people who ARE against coal mining and people who ARE against the death penalty and I would guarantee that those people who did vote against it are 99% the same people!

[DevilsWin]

Such a good debate, and really enjoy reading. Well, if you are against coal mining that is because I am just not seeing how anyone could be against it! I would like to see a poll of people who ARE against coal mining and people who ARE against the death penalty and I would guarantee that those people who did vote against it are 99% the same people!

So would it suffice to say that in your opinion people who are against coal put justice, morality and the greater good for all ahead of their own selfish personal wants or needs?
Cause just let me tell you, innocent people get sent to death row all the time. I just hope it's not you or me next time they get it wrong.

[Coach_Owens87]

[QUOTE=Old School;407239]CO87: Since no industry keeps up with total land being mined. You may want to contact the Office of Surface Mining and Reclamation, I'm sure they should have that number somewhere. Everyone has to keep in mind that not every mountain top or ridgeline has mineable coal reserves. I've seen several instances where there would be 5 foot of coal one ridge and less than a foot on the next ridge over. Coal seams are very sporadic especially around the top of the mountains.

CO87: Less People Mining ????

CO87: Contour Surface Mining rarely used today and doesn't play an important role in this discussion. Several companies mine by the Contour method, really the majority of companies that use MTR are the larger ones like Massey, Arch etc., the company that I work for has 5 surface mines all of them use the Contour mining method.

CO87: highwalls can not be filled in and just remain there. You got to be kidding me, Where did you come up with tis information, FYI Federal Law passed in 1977 requires highwalls to be reclaimed, if you see any old highwalls along the hillsides then it had to be mined before 1977 or someone forfeited their bond if it was mined after 1977.

CO87: Home Values First if there is anyone out there that lives within a 3/4 mile radius of a surface mine they should have a Pre Blast survey on their house before mining starts or as soon as possible. Coal companies will pay a independent contractor that is licensed to preform a pre blast survey to come to your home, during this survey they will examine the interior for any defects (cracks, water leaks, doors that don't shut well, etc.) pictures or video's will be shoud be taken. The outside of the house will be examined they should pay special attention to the foundation and roof. I would strongly recommend this to anyone living near a mining operation where there is blasting, this can help the home owner prove the damage has been done since blasting started or it can prove the damage was already there prior to blasting. The ATF requires that companies record the amount of explosives and what is used in each shot, the certified blaster will either shoot by scaled distances (houses or building are located on a map with the permitted area) the blaster will use a GPS unit for his location and a distance is then determined to the nearest house or protected structure, or a box is set up at the nearest house to measure the ground vibrations this reading is recorded in the box. If a person calls in a blasting complaint to the state office, all they have to do is to either check the box or the blasting logs and if the company is out of compliance they will be liable for damages.

CO87: 90% of mined land is not used I have no idea where you came up with that number? Must be from a environmental web site.

The waters in Eastern Kentucky and Southern West Virginia are polluted, they are not as bad as they once were, but I think the biggest problem with the streams is the fact that there are still to many sewer lines that run straight into them. Just the other day a man who owned a septic cleaning service was caught dumping raw sewage into the Big Sandy River a few miles above the water plant intake, and he had been doing this for months.
Am I understanding you to say that mining is to blame of all of the chemicals in the streams and rivers?[/QUOTE]

I researched and tried to find the total area of land mined, I couldn't. I read several articles that gave an estimate, which is 1.2 million acres since 1980, 5% of the total land mass, so according to you coal companies should only mine 1% more of the land, thats just not true. (these stats are from the UK department of agriculture.)

Reclamation You can say they are filled in and reclaimed, and I wont argue that some are, but a lot aren't. All I can go by is pictures of the land before and after mining, a lot of the pictures I see just show brown, barren land. Gravity works against you, you cant completely put the land back, it's impossible.

Home values[B]I know the procedure that a homeowner can take when around a blasting site, i've studied it all. You can give me all the crap you want about coal companies paying to fix the damages. It does sound nice, and the coal companies have got a good setup, everything would seem to work right, but it doesn't. In a lot of cases, when coal companies set up small subsidiaries, they file bankruptcy after mining, and whatever damage they caused is left unattended. This happens a lot, and in the other cases calling in a complaint gets you no where, it's just an endless cycle. Coal companies don't care what damage they cause, all they care about is getting money, no matter who, or what the damage in the process.[/B]

[B]I dont know why you put ??? for less people mining, you even admitted that was true, but just to restate, mining jobs have decreased by 50% in eastern ky and West Virginia.[/B]
90% of mined land not used[B]I figured you would try to slam my stats, I hate to break you're heart but it didn't come from an environmental site, although I'm sure they have the stats too. The statistics I got came from the UK department of agriculture.[/B]

The sewage running into the water could have been an issue 20 years ago, but not now. The majority of people now have running water, a few rural homes may not have it, but most do. What is found in the water is mercury (found just underneath the surface, which is released during blasting), zinc, lead, ammonium nitrate ( which is used in blasting), and others. Some of this does come from waste running into the water, but not all of it. If all of that was coming from human waste, there shouldn't be anyone alive in eastern ky. It's really sad that people here are poor and some don't have the luxury of sewage and running water. The coal companies use that fact to blame others for their mess.

Here are some good sites that aren't by environmental "whackos" that have some really good information and stats about the coal counties. I know you will just glaze over them, throw them off, and go back to your "coal websites", and bash me for using so called environmental sites.

Did you know that coal mining is responsible for burring and damaging more streams than any other form of pollution? That doesnt stack up well for your argument.

http://windpub.com/dirtymoney.htm
http://arri.osmre.gov/KYResearch.htm

[BFritz]

I haven't been following this so this might have been said already, but as soon as we can find a way to cheaply utilize all of coal, it will replace our dependance on oil.

[Football Widow]

I have also really enjoyed this debate.:Thumbs: I think that Old School did have alot of good points that he has stated.

I had a couple of points that I wanted to reply too also. Coach Owens 87 thinks that there is not a problem with sewage running into the creek....Where have you been? Straight pipes are every where. . Also there is alot more people out there without running water than what you think. You should also take into the account that there is a mine over in the Big Creek area that hooked alot of "straight pipers" up to a municiple sewer system. Maybe you should return to examine your county a little bit more. Lung cancer can be more attributed to smoking than anything. Alot of children have asthma simply because their parents smoke inside their tiny car with all the windows up. What could you expect? Also alot more people are sick today, not because of coal mining, but because they won't get off their big lazy rumps and exercise, eat correctly,quit smoking, etc. You should also really check the stats on STD's and hepatitis. Last time I checked my med book, none of these could be coal mining related (unless there is some extra curricular activities going on that I'm not aware of ?? I could tell that you were "pre-med" when you started talking about illness. Wait till you get out in the "real world" with a job and see real patients. You'll understand where I'm coming from. Coal mining companies give back to the community as well. Don't forget about all the money that they give towards scholarships, school athletics and educational programs. There was also an article in a Prestonsburg news paper about how a mine had donated money to pave a parking lot at Jenny Wiley. Please try to remember the good things that these companies do as well!

[Playboy5]

So would it suffice to say that in your opinion people who are against coal put justice, morality and the greater good for all ahead of their own selfish personal wants or needs?
Cause just let me tell you, innocent people get sent to death row all the time. I just hope it's not you or me next time they get it wrong.

And thank you very much for proving the point I was trying to make!

[Old School]

CO87: Less People Mining ????

Reclamation You can say they are filled in and reclaimed, and I wont argue that some are, but a lot aren't. All I can go by is pictures of the land before and after mining, a lot of the pictures I see just show brown, barren land. Gravity works against you, you cant completely put the land back, it's impossible.

Home values[B]I know the procedure that a homeowner can take when around a blasting site, i've studied it all. You can give me all the crap you want about coal companies paying to fix the damages. It does sound nice, and the coal companies have got a good setup, everything would seem to work right, but it doesn't. In a lot of cases, when coal companies set up small subsidiaries, they file bankruptcy after mining, and whatever damage they caused is left unattended. This happens a lot, and in the other cases calling in a complaint gets you no where, it's just an endless cycle. Coal companies don't care what damage they cause, all they care about is getting money, no matter who, or what the damage in the process.[/B]

[B]I dont know why you put ??? for less people mining, you even admitted that was true, but just to restate, mining jobs have decreased by 50% in eastern ky and West Virginia.[/B]
90% of mined land not used[B]I figured you would try to slam my stats, I hate to break you're heart but it didn't come from an environmental site, although I'm sure they have the stats too. The statistics I got came from the UK department of agriculture.[/B]

The sewage running into the water could have been an issue 20 years ago, but not now. The majority of people now have running water, a few rural homes may not have it, but most do. What is found in the water is mercury (found just underneath the surface, which is released during blasting), zinc, lead, ammonium nitrate ( which is used in blasting), and others. Some of this does come from waste running into the water, but not all of it. If all of that was coming from human waste, there shouldn't be anyone alive in eastern ky. It's really sad that people here are poor and some don't have the luxury of sewage and running water. The coal companies use that fact to blame others for their mess.

Here are some good sites that aren't by environmental "whackos" that have some really good information and stats about the coal counties. I know you will just glaze over them, throw them off, and go back to your "coal websites", and bash me for using so called environmental sites.

Did you know that coal mining is responsible for burring and damaging more streams than any other form of pollution? That doesnt stack up well for your argument.

http://windpub.com/dirtymoney.htm
http://arri.osmre.gov/KYResearch.htm[/quote]


You hit the nail on the head with "all I can go by is pictures of land before and after mining" the photographs show you what they want you to see, do you know the details, were they finished with the reclamation or what time of the year were the photos taken.
I never said you could put the land back to it's original contour, most coal companies try to reach 85% of the original contour.

So you know the procedures a homeowner has around a blasting site, and you say you've studied it all. Well sonny you may want to go back to study hall and hit the books one more time, because I have dealt with blasting problems before and if we were at fault we did pay for damages, most of the property owners agreed to have the pre blast surveys, and sometimes it showed that the damage was done after we started blasting and sometimes it proved that the damage was there before we started blasting. In West Virginia if a property owner calls in a complaint if it's blasting or something else a inspector has to investigate and file a report on his findings.

Now CO87 we've went down this same road a couple of months ago in another thread, I know you've heard of the Applicant Violator System in case you've forgot let me refresh your memory, before a permit is issued the Name and Social Security No. of the owner/owners and company officers are entered into this program, now every coal company has to put up a bond for each permit they receive, if they file bankruptcy and don't reclaim the distrubed areas the bond is forfeited, the names of the owner/owners and company officers are flagged in the Applicant Violator System and they will never be able to obtain another permit in their names or be a officer, even if they start another company or go to work for someone else.

Don't give me that "Coal Companies don't care about anyone but themselfs" bit as I told you in the other thread (Compare Bush's House to Al Gores) about the services that some coal companies provide to the surrounding communities. If any one is interested they can go the (Compare Bush's House to Al Gores thread) and read some of the same information that is being posted on this thread.

The question marks were my mistake, I intended to come back and comment,

So why all the fuss about decreasing jobs in the coal mines, like I stated before new techology enables more coal to be mined with fewer people, just like more cars can be built with fewer people and so on. Are you wanting us to go back to the days of the pick and shovel, while were at it let's do away with the assembly line and bring back the old crank phones with party lines.

Straight sewer pipes are not a problem Like Football Widow said "where have you been they are everywhere" you need to get out of the Big City every once in a while and revisit you roots. What does having running water in your house have to do with running raw sewage straight into the creek?

Sorry to bust you bubble but, we've been surface and underground mining on the same property (+/- 40,000 acres) the last 15 years and we have never detected any amount of mercury, zinc, lead or ammonium nitrate in any of our water samples taken from our ponds, streams.

As far as your web sites I'll try to look at them tomarrow it already past my bed time.

[Coach_Owens87]

CO87: Less People Mining ????

Reclamation You can say they are filled in and reclaimed, and I wont argue that some are, but a lot aren't. All I can go by is pictures of the land before and after mining, a lot of the pictures I see just show brown, barren land. Gravity works against you, you cant completely put the land back, it's impossible.

Home values[B]I know the procedure that a homeowner can take when around a blasting site, i've studied it all. You can give me all the crap you want about coal companies paying to fix the damages. It does sound nice, and the coal companies have got a good setup, everything would seem to work right, but it doesn't. In a lot of cases, when coal companies set up small subsidiaries, they file bankruptcy after mining, and whatever damage they caused is left unattended. This happens a lot, and in the other cases calling in a complaint gets you no where, it's just an endless cycle. Coal companies don't care what damage they cause, all they care about is getting money, no matter who, or what the damage in the process.[/B]


[B]I dont know why you put ??? for less people mining, you even admitted that was true, but just to restate, mining jobs have decreased by 50% in eastern ky and West Virginia.[/B]
90% of mined land not used[B]I figured you would try to slam my stats, I hate to break you're heart but it didn't come from an environmental site, although I'm sure they have the stats too. The statistics I got came from the UK department of agriculture.[/B]

The sewage running into the water could have been an issue 20 years ago, but not now. The majority of people now have running water, a few rural homes may not have it, but most do. What is found in the water is mercury (found just underneath the surface, which is released during blasting), zinc, lead, ammonium nitrate ( which is used in blasting), and others. Some of this does come from waste running into the water, but not all of it. If all of that was coming from human waste, there shouldn't be anyone alive in eastern ky. It's really sad that people here are poor and some don't have the luxury of sewage and running water. The coal companies use that fact to blame others for their mess.

Here are some good sites that aren't by environmental "whackos" that have some really good information and stats about the coal counties. I know you will just glaze over them, throw them off, and go back to your "coal websites", and bash me for using so called environmental sites.

Did you know that coal mining is responsible for burring and damaging more streams than any other form of pollution? That doesnt stack up well for your argument.

http://windpub.com/dirtymoney.htm
http://arri.osmre.gov/KYResearch.htm

You hit the nail on the head with "all I can go by is pictures of land before and after mining" the photographs show you what they want you to see, do you know the details, were they finished with the reclamation or what time of the year were the photos taken.
I never said you could put the land back to it's original contour, most coal companies try to reach 85% of the original contour.

So you know the procedures a homeowner has around a blasting site, and you say you've studied it all. Well sonny you may want to go back to study hall and hit the books one more time, because I have dealt with blasting problems before and if we were at fault we did pay for damages, most of the property owners agreed to have the pre blast surveys, and sometimes it showed that the damage was done after we started blasting and sometimes it proved that the damage was there before we started blasting. In West Virginia if a property owner calls in a complaint if it's blasting or something else a inspector has to investigate and file a report on his findings.

Now CO87 we've went down this same road a couple of months ago in another thread, I know you've heard of the Applicant Violator System in case you've forgot let me refresh your memory, before a permit is issued the Name and Social Security No. of the owner/owners and company officers are entered into this program, now every coal company has to put up a bond for each permit they receive, if they file bankruptcy and don't reclaim the distrubed areas the bond is forfeited, the names of the owner/owners and company officers are flagged in the Applicant Violator System and they will never be able to obtain another permit in their names or be a officer, even if they start another company or go to work for someone else.

Don't give me that "Coal Companies don't care about anyone but themselfs" bit as I told you in the other thread (Compare Bush's House to Al Gores) about the services that some coal companies provide to the surrounding communities. If any one is interested they can go the (Compare Bush's House to Al Gores thread) and read some of the same information that is being posted on this thread.

The question marks were my mistake, I intended to come back and comment,

So why all the fuss about decreasing jobs in the coal mines, like I stated before new techology enables more coal to be mined with fewer people, just like more cars can be built with fewer people and so on. Are you wanting us to go back to the days of the pick and shovel, while were at it let's do away with the assembly line and bring back the old crank phones with party lines.

Straight sewer pipes are not a problem Like Football Widow said "where have you been they are everywhere" you need to get out of the Big City every once in a while and revisit you roots. What does having running water in your house have to do with running raw sewage straight into the creek?

Sorry to bust you bubble but, we've been surface and underground mining on the same property (+/- 40,000 acres) the last 15 years and we have never detected any amount of mercury, zinc, lead or ammonium nitrate in any of our water samples taken from our ponds, streams.

As far as your web sites I'll try to look at them tomarrow it already past my bed time.[/QUOTE]

The photos I spoke of where taken after reclamation, and during the spring, so everything was in full bloom, all that could be seen along the ridges where barren land. Some sites had fescue grass, there root system fights against those of the native trees and makes it nearly impossible for a forest to return.

I need to get out of the big city, lol, last time I checked Hindman Ky was not a "big city", Ive lived in eastern KY all my life, Ive never left my roots.

I know that companies are supposed to put things back, but don't kid yourself and say that they do. Yes some do, but a lot of companies don't. Many companies open subsidiaries, mine a place, and then shut down and move on to another site and do the same thing. I know you say they are flagged and that they have to put up bond money, I know all of that, they put up money, a majority of the amount required to reclaim before they mine, if they shut down, the state then takes over and reclaims. The whole crap about not being able to mine again is bull, yes the subsidiary cant mine, but the head company just moves on.


You say you never tested any water that contained mercury, zinc, or lead, thats kind of hard to believe since I took water from the creek in front of my house and fount all of those elements in a chemical lab test at my college. MY professor took water samples from creeks in three different counties and discovered the same thing. All of these streams are fed by headwaters that have been affected by mining. I looked at samples that where evaluated by the epa, and other agencies and they fount many of the same things. If all companies where as clean as yours I wouldn't have anything to complain about.

The point I was trying to make with running water is that things have changed here, years ago many people didnt have running water, or sewage, they drew water from wells, and dumped waste anywhere they could. people run sewage into the creek to keep from paying for a septic tank. Getting more jobs, an education opportunites to this region would end most of those problems.

You can give me all the rules, and regulations from the coal companies that you wont. You can also say that I want to end all mining jobs, and scare people into believing you, it's what you guys do best, but It doesn't matter, I know the rules, I'm just trying to tell you that a lot of coal companies aren't obeying laws and trying to get a good citizen award.

Yeah yeah yeah, coal companies do great things for the communities, the only reason they do that is to keep a good image with a community that is already feared into thinking life cannot go on without them. Thats like saying the mob done great things for the communities in Chicago, or that the terrorist who give money for schools in their region are good people. Them donating money, and doing community projects does not make up for the atrocities they are causing in Appalachia.

[DevilsWin]

And thank you very much for proving the point I was trying to make!

I wish to retract my last sentence. I do hope that you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and have to sit on death row knowing your an innocent man. Is that what it would take to convince you that your just plain wrong?

I'm not gonna go on about the death penalty but I will say that you seem very selfish and only worried about yourself and your families needs. The whole rest of the world can go to hell in a hand basket as long as Playboy5 gets to do as he wishes regardless of how it effects other people. That's not the American Way and that's not the Christian Way either.

This whole generation of people in their 20's gets me with their sense of "entitlement".:puking:

[TidesHoss32]

Yeah, and you sitting there wishing for an innocent man to be put on death row isnt exactly a Christian thing either. Or is that the DevilsWin logic behind things? I support the death penalty, does that make me selfish? To wish child molesters, murderers, rapists to get the punishment they deserve? Yeah, it IS our sense of "entitlement". And I would doubt very seriously, betting the house on it, that we've ever hung an "innocent" human.

I wish to retract my last sentence. I do hope that you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and have to sit on death row knowing your an innocent man. Is that what it would take to convince you that your just plain wrong?

I'm not gonna go on about the death penalty but I will say that you seem very selfish and only worried about yourself and your families needs. The whole rest of the world can go to hell in a hand basket as long as Playboy5 gets to do as he wishes regardless of how it effects other people. That's not the American Way and that's not the Christian Way either.

This whole generation of people in their 20's gets me with their sense of "entitlement".:puking:

[Coach_Owens87]

Tidehoss, I think you took DW's reply the wrong way. I don't believe he was wishing for you to die, just that he wonders what you would be feeling if you were sitting on death row knowing you're an innocent man. People just like to know that someone paid for the crime, even though it may not be the man/woman that committed it.

I don't believe that the death penalty is right, for a society that condemns murder, how is it ok for that societies government to do the same thing. When we punish a murderer to death, aren't we just as bad?

Now before you give me the typical "why do you hate justice, and the law", I don't, I believe some sort of punishment is deserved, but our justice systems needs to work on changing criminals, not locking them up for a while, and then releasing them.

[TidesHoss32]

OK, I have a question for you. And I know we are way off topic, but I have a serious question for anybody that opposes the death penalty. I worked 7 1/2 years in a Supermaximum security prison, and Ive dealt with these animals personally. But answer this question for me. I know nothing about you CO87, other than we disagree on coalmining. That doesnt by any means make you a bad person in my eyes at all, just we have a disagreement on a subject we consider serious. Now for my question. Say you have a family, because like I said, I dont know..but say you married your high school sweetheart, had two children. And some punk coward rapist breaks into your house. He molests both of your children before bashing both of them, screaming, to their deaths. He then rapes your wife, stabs her and beats her, screaming, to her death. Now, I use this because this is absolutely typical of what DIDNT get the death penalty. Im asking you, not being sarcastic, but how can you oppose the death penalty, when something like that happens to your family? I use my neice and nephew, because Im not married, nor do I have kids. But if someone hurt either of them, IF they escape me (which they wouldnt but anyways), I would want them dead immediately. Id want their time in hell to be served ASAP.

Tidehoss, I think you took DW's reply the wrong way. I don't believe he was wishing for you to die, just that he wonders what you would be feeling if you were sitting on death row knowing you're an innocent man. People just like to know that someone paid for the crime, even though it may not be the man/woman that committed it.

I don't believe that the death penalty is right, for a society that condemns murder, how is it ok for that societies government to do the same thing. When we punish a murderer to death, aren't we just as bad?

Now before you give me the typical "why do you hate justice, and the law", I don't, I believe some sort of punishment is deserved, but our justice systems needs to work on changing criminals, not locking them up for a while, and then releasing them.

[Coach_Owens87]

OK, I have a question for you. And I know we are way off topic, but I have a serious question for anybody that opposes the death penalty. I worked 7 1/2 years in a Supermaximum security prison, and Ive dealt with these animals personally. But answer this question for me. I know nothing about you CO87, other than we disagree on coalmining. That doesnt by any means make you a bad person in my eyes at all, just we have a disagreement on a subject we consider serious. Now for my question. Say you have a family, because like I said, I dont know..but say you married your high school sweetheart, had two children. And some punk coward rapist breaks into your house. He molests both of your children before bashing both of them, screaming, to their deaths. He then rapes your wife, stabs her and beats her, screaming, to her death. Now, I use this because this is absolutely typical of what DIDNT get the death penalty. Im asking you, not being sarcastic, but how can you oppose the death penalty, when something like that happens to your family? I use my neice and nephew, because Im not married, nor do I have kids. But if someone hurt either of them, IF they escape me (which they wouldnt but anyways), I would want them dead immediately. Id want their time in hell to be served ASAP.

I knew you would ask that question.

I'm not married, but I have 2 younger sisters that I absolutely adore, if something happened like the story you mentioned I would be absolutely destroyed. It would take a lot from me to not kill the person myself. One thing would stop me though, my faith, I do not believe that I would make things better by stooping to their level and killing them, it would just make me as bad as they are. You say you would want their time in hell served ASAP, but wouldn't you go to hell too? Doesn't the bible warn against the evils of revenge, and if my memory serves me correct god says in the ten commandments "Thou shall not kill". Not matter what happens to the criminal, the victims will never return.

My faith just tells me that killing is wrong, no matter who is killed.

[cig107]

CO87: Since no industry keeps up with total land being mined. You may want to contact the Office of Surface Mining and Reclamation, I'm sure they should have that number somewhere. Everyone has to keep in mind that not every mountain top or ridgeline has mineable coal reserves. I've seen several instances where there would be 5 foot of coal one ridge and less than a foot on the next ridge over. Coal seams are very sporadic especially around the top of the mountains.

CO87: Less People Mining ????

CO87: Contour Surface Mining rarely used today and doesn't play an important role in this discussion. Several companies mine by the Contour method, really the majority of companies that use MTR are the larger ones like Massey, Arch etc., the company that I work for has 5 surface mines all of them use the Contour mining method.

CO87: highwalls can not be filled in and just remain there. You got to be kidding me, Where did you come up with tis information, FYI Federal Law passed in 1977 requires highwalls to be reclaimed, if you see any old highwalls along the hillsides then it had to be mined before 1977 or someone forfeited their bond if it was mined after 1977.

CO87: Home Values First if there is anyone out there that lives within a 3/4 mile radius of a surface mine they should have a Pre Blast survey on their house before mining starts or as soon as possible. Coal companies will pay a independent contractor that is licensed to preform a pre blast survey to come to your home, during this survey they will examine the interior for any defects (cracks, water leaks, doors that don't shut well, etc.) pictures or video's will be shoud be taken. The outside of the house will be examined they should pay special attention to the foundation and roof. I would strongly recommend this to anyone living near a mining operation where there is blasting, this can help the home owner prove the damage has been done since blasting started or it can prove the damage was already there prior to blasting. The ATF requires that companies record the amount of explosives and what is used in each shot, the certified blaster will either shoot by scaled distances (houses or building are located on a map with the permitted area) the blaster will use a GPS unit for his location and a distance is then determined to the nearest house or protected structure, or a box is set up at the nearest house to measure the ground vibrations this reading is recorded in the box. If a person calls in a blasting complaint to the state office, all they have to do is to either check the box or the blasting logs and if the company is out of compliance they will be liable for damages.

CO87: 90% of mined land is not used I have no idea where you came up with that number? Must be from a environmental web site.

The waters in Eastern Kentucky and Southern West Virginia are polluted, they are not as bad as they once were, but I think the biggest problem with the streams is the fact that there are still to many sewer lines that run straight into them. Just the other day a man who owned a septic cleaning service was caught dumping raw sewage into the Big Sandy River a few miles above the water plant intake, and he had been doing this for months.
Am I understanding you to say that mining is to blame of all of the chemicals in the streams and rivers?

I researched and tried to find the total area of land mined, I couldn't. I read several articles that gave an estimate, which is 1.2 million acres since 1980, 5% of the total land mass, so according to you coal companies should only mine 1% more of the land, thats just not true. (these stats are from the UK department of agriculture.)

Reclamation You can say they are filled in and reclaimed, and I wont argue that some are, but a lot aren't. All I can go by is pictures of the land before and after mining, a lot of the pictures I see just show brown, barren land. Gravity works against you, you cant completely put the land back, it's impossible.

Home values[B]I know the procedure that a homeowner can take when around a blasting site, i've studied it all. You can give me all the crap you want about coal companies paying to fix the damages. It does sound nice, and the coal companies have got a good setup, everything would seem to work right, but it doesn't. In a lot of cases, when coal companies set up small subsidiaries, they file bankruptcy after mining, and whatever damage they caused is left unattended. This happens a lot, and in the other cases calling in a complaint gets you no where, it's just an endless cycle. Coal companies don't care what damage they cause, all they care about is getting money, no matter who, or what the damage in the process.[/B]

[B]I dont know why you put ??? for less people mining, you even admitted that was true, but just to restate, mining jobs have decreased by 50% in eastern ky and West Virginia.[/B]
90% of mined land not used[B]I figured you would try to slam my stats, I hate to break you're heart but it didn't come from an environmental site, although I'm sure they have the stats too. The statistics I got came from the UK department of agriculture.[/B]

The sewage running into the water could have been an issue 20 years ago, but not now. The majority of people now have running water, a few rural homes may not have it, but most do. What is found in the water is mercury (found just underneath the surface, which is released during blasting), zinc, lead, ammonium nitrate ( which is used in blasting), and others. Some of this does come from waste running into the water, but not all of it. If all of that was coming from human waste, there shouldn't be anyone alive in eastern ky. It's really sad that people here are poor and some don't have the luxury of sewage and running water. The coal companies use that fact to blame others for their mess.

Here are some good sites that aren't by environmental "whackos" that have some really good information and stats about the coal counties. I know you will just glaze over them, throw them off, and go back to your "coal websites", and bash me for using so called environmental sites.

Did you know that coal mining is responsible for burring and damaging more streams than any other form of pollution? That doesnt stack up well for your argument.

http://windpub.com/dirtymoney.htm
http://arri.osmre.gov/KYResearch.htm

TREEHUGGER!!!

[Playboy5]

I wish to retract my last sentence. I do hope that you get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and have to sit on death row knowing your an innocent man. Is that what it would take to convince you that your just plain wrong?

I'm not gonna go on about the death penalty but I will say that you seem very selfish and only worried about yourself and your families needs. The whole rest of the world can go to hell in a hand basket as long as Playboy5 gets to do as he wishes regardless of how it effects other people. That's not the American Way and that's not the Christian Way either.

This whole generation of people in their 20's gets me with their sense of "entitlement".:puking:

So you hope I am in the wrong place and get accused of something that i didn't do and am sent on DEATH ROW, LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Too many connections bro! Sorry! You are the one wrong IMO! Just Like TH32 put it, which knowing you, you probably would still be against it and try to council the guy huh. I wouldn't be shocked one bit! The Christian way MR. DEVILS WIN! Yeah, you have so many great points and boy have you brought everything into this one. How am I selfish, because I believe in coal in Eastern Ky and I believe in the death penalty? And I could care less what you think of people and the entire generation in there 20's!:popcorn: :howdy: :1:

[Playboy5]

I knew you would ask that question.

I'm not married, but I have 2 younger sisters that I absolutely adore, if something happened like the story you mentioned I would be absolutely destroyed. It would take a lot from me to not kill the person myself. One thing would stop me though, my faith, I do not believe that I would make things better by stooping to their level and killing them, it would just make me as bad as they are. You say you would want their time in hell served ASAP, but wouldn't you go to hell too? Doesn't the bible warn against the evils of revenge, and if my memory serves me correct god says in the ten commandments "Thou shall not kill". Not matter what happens to the criminal, the victims will never return.

My faith just tells me that killing is wrong, no matter who is killed.

Well I am glad you feel that way. You are ALOT better person than I am because they would be killed the first chance I got if they did something like that to my family or hell even friends. AND BTW, YOU WOULDN'T BE THE ONE KILLING THEM! THAT IS WHY THEY ARE A COURT SYSTEM AND THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE JURORS! God isn't looking at you like you are the one killing them! You aren't injecting them. We are talking about the death penalty not literally killing someone. But that is another thread anyways!

[Playboy5]

And I am not sure if you have looked at the poll numbers yet, but well, 46-2 uh...I think I will keep on having paper for a while! TATA MOUNTAIN TOPS!

[DevilsWin]

And I would doubt very seriously, betting the house on it, that we've ever hung an "innocent" human.

This statement proves that you kow absolutely nothing about the death penalty. Why do you think the state of Illinios has stopped all executions?

I have a better solutions for the guy who raped, molested and murdered a family. Lets put him in a labor camp making big rocks into little rocks all day. Work him so hard that he dies of natural causes at an early age so we don't have to feed him forever. I'm not against punishment and I don't support counseling for Criminals given life sentences. However If an inmate doesn't get life in prison he or she must be rehabilitated through counseling and education otherwise when thay get out they will victimize people the same way they did before getting locked up. Now if you don't mind lets get back to coal mining or start another thread about the death penalty. PS have you seen the movie Monsters Ball? Great movie about the Texas Prison system death squads.


P.S. The United States Constition and the Bill of Rights give all US Citizens protection from "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". If the death penalty isn't Cruel and Unusual then I don't know what would be.

[DevilsWin]

Tidehoss, I think you took DW's reply the wrong way. I don't believe he was wishing for you to die, just that he wonders what you would be feeling if you were sitting on death row knowing you're an innocent man. People just like to know that someone paid for the crime, even though it may not be the man/woman that committed it.

I don't believe that the death penalty is right, for a society that condemns murder, how is it ok for that societies government to do the same thing. When we punish a murderer to death, aren't we just as bad?

Now before you give me the typical "why do you hate justice, and the law", I don't, I believe some sort of punishment is deserved, but our justice systems needs to work on changing criminals, not locking them up for a while, and then releasing them.

Well said Coach! These "Me First, Screw everyone else" philosophers are a dying breed and that's why they're so angry. People that believe the way we do vastly outnumber the backwards thinking people in this debate. The reason we get outnumbered on the poll is simply because this is a board for an area that has been historically dependent on Coal. As you pointed out earlier. Coal jobs are becoming an endangered species. First it was strip mining then mountaintop removal.
Remember what John Prine said when he wrote.
"Then the Coal company came with the worlds largest shovel and they tortured the timber and stripped all the land. They dug for their coal till the land was forsaken and they wrote it all down as the progress of man."

We will prevail coach, and they'll just get angry.

[Playboy5]

Right, John Prine huh..Well tell John Denver..OH WAIT...WE CAN'T! He believes in taking tree tops off too~

[Coach_Owens87]

DW, thanks for the support, it's rare that I get anything positive on this board.

Lets get back to death penalty for one second, Tidehoss said that the death penalty is not literally killing someone. lol, when someone is put to death, that is killing them, I dont see how being killed is not "literary killing".

Tidehoss I don't care who kills the person, it's still wrong.

DW, You're exactly right on this area being dependent on coal, everyone on this board has shown that. We're so afraid that if coal leaves we will have nothing, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.


I knew I was fighting a losing debate when I stated my opinion on this site, but no matter how many people disagree with me, It will never change my mind I want I think is right. I will not join the rest and be silent as my home is destroyed.

There is a large and growing number of people that opposes MTR, there has always been a large group, but most have never spoken out. I believe that some think turning a deaf ear to them will silence all critics, it's not working for George Bush and it's not going to work for coal companies.

BTW, I love the John Prine quote.

[Coach_Owens87]

And I am not sure if you have looked at the poll numbers yet, but well, 46-2 uh...I think I will keep on having paper for a while! TATA MOUNTAIN TOPS!

Tidehoss, removing a mountain has very little to do with you having paper, it powers this computer, but the majority of wood used in paper manufacturing does not come from this area. If MTR has anything to do with paper manufacturing it would decrease it, NO TREES = NO PAPER, simple math.

[DevilsWin]

DW, thanks for the support, it's rare that I get anything positive on this board.

Lets get back to death penalty for one second, Tidehoss said that the death penalty is not literally killing someone. lol, when someone is put to death, that is killing them, I dont see how being killed is not "literary killing".

Tidehoss I don't care who kills the person, it's still wrong.

DW, You're exactly right on this area being dependent on coal, everyone on this board has shown that. We're so afraid that if coal leaves we will have nothing, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.


I knew I was fighting a losing debate when I stated my opinion on this site, but no matter how many people disagree with me, It will never change my mind I want I think is right. I will not join the rest and be silent as my home is destroyed.

There is a large and growing number of people that opposes MTR, there has always been a large group, but most have never spoken out. I believe that some think turning a deaf ear to them will silence all critics, it's not working for George Bush and it's not going to work for coal companies.

BTW, I love the John Prine quote.

Here's some more from that same song.

"Daddy won't you tak eme back to Muhlenburg County, down by the Green River where Paradise lays. Well I'm sorry my son, but your too late in asking. Mr Peabody's Coal Train has hauled it away."

[Playboy5]

That's right Mr. John Prine, it has been hauled away and will continue to haul it away!

[Playboy5]

And Coach Owens and Devils win...That is what this site is for, and that is to state your opinion! Nothing wrong with that! That is your right as an American!

[cig107]

I'm not sure about other strip mines, but my dad and and a couple of other guys got almost every tree ready for logging on the mine that he ran...again, im not sure about other mines.