[DevilsWin]

That's right Mr. John Prine, it has been hauled away and will continue to haul it away!

Until nothing is left.

That's a real nice plan for the future there Playboy5.

[Playboy5]

Ah, that's just the way it is though..Like it or not! You sure aren't going to change anything and it SURE doesn't look like the people who are fighting it are getting anything done! I think you are just a Little OUTNUMBERED and ALWAYS WILL BE!

[TidesHoss32]

Its people LIKE YOU, JUST LIKE YOU, that havent been affected by someone murdering a member of your family. I could give a crap about your belief on the death penalty. And Ill guarantee that YOU, or CO87, or anybody else that opposes the death penalty would change your views if somebody walked into your house and butchered your family. If you give me that garbage about labor camps (if you want to talk about a dying breed, you just named one), or rehabilitation for their crimes (:lmao: ), then go ahead, you'll be wasting your breath. You havent dealt with these lifers. Let me tell you, they DO NOT live a bad life. Three meals a day, showers, free medical, library books, etc. Oh, did I forget to mention that thats at a SUPERMAX prison??? THAT'S THE REALITY OF OUR RAPISTS, MURDERERS AND MOLESTERS. They DONT go to labor camps to die. And THIS, my friend, is something I know WAY MORE THAN YOU about.

This statement proves that you kow absolutely nothing about the death penalty. Why do you think the state of Illinios has stopped all executions?

I have a better solutions for the guy who raped, molested and murdered a family. Lets put him in a labor camp making big rocks into little rocks all day. Work him so hard that he dies of natural causes at an early age so we don't have to feed him forever. I'm not against punishment and I don't support counseling for Criminals given life sentences. However If an inmate doesn't get life in prison he or she must be rehabilitated through counseling and education otherwise when thay get out they will victimize people the same way they did before getting locked up. Now if you don't mind lets get back to coal mining or start another thread about the death penalty. PS have you seen the movie Monsters Ball? Great movie about the Texas Prison system death squads.


P.S. The United States Constition and the Bill of Rights give all US Citizens protection from "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". If the death penalty isn't Cruel and Unusual then I don't know what would be.

[TidesHoss32]

Ummm...thats not me, Thats PLAYBOY5..and you've made several jabs at me when Im not the one writing these. Get your stuff straight.

Tidehoss, removing a mountain has very little to do with you having paper, it powers this computer, but the majority of wood used in paper manufacturing does not come from this area. If MTR has anything to do with paper manufacturing it would decrease it, NO TREES = NO PAPER, simple math.

[TidesHoss32]

jeez..

Tidehoss, removing a mountain has very little to do with you having paper, it powers this computer, but the majority of wood used in paper manufacturing does not come from this area. If MTR has anything to do with paper manufacturing it would decrease it, NO TREES = NO PAPER, simple math.

[Coach_Owens87]

Ah, that's just the way it is though..Like it or not! You sure aren't going to change anything and it SURE doesn't look like the people who are fighting it are getting anything done! I think you are just a Little OUTNUMBERED and ALWAYS WILL BE!

Well playboy I'm sorry but you're living in an isolated world. Just recently two rules where passed by a federal judge that severely restrained MTR. So sorry, but we are getting things done. It's people like you who refuse to accept change, we need to study the Mayan society to see where we are heading. The Mayans used up all their natural resources, and then just vanished from existence, no trace of what happened. They where a very powerful society, if things don't change, we could be in the same shape.

You may think we are outnumbered, but I don't believe so, the only reason people here agree with MTR is because they have family members who work in the mines. Many people associate MTR with the old strip mines, or contour mines (ridge mining) they aren't the same. Things are happening on a mass scale now.

The same things have been said throughout history, the blacks where told they would never have rights, women where told they would never have rights, america was told we would not win the revolutionary's war, but they keep fighting, and look what happened.

Call me a tree hugger, a hippie, whatever you wish I don't really care, if all you can throw at me is outdated prejudice remarks, then I really don't have anything to worry about, youre not smart enough to know what I'm talking about.

[Coach_Owens87]

Ummm...thats not me, Thats PLAYBOY5..and you've made several jabs at me when Im not the one writing these. Get your stuff straight.

Sorry for the mistake, but I wasnt taking a jab at anyone, I was just correcting false ideals like the ones playboy is spitting out.

Sorry if you felt it was a personal attack, it was not. My apologies.

[TidesHoss32]

Yeah, I didnt say that the death penalty isnt literally killing someone, that was PB5..AGAIN. Whats wrong with you man? Your pre-med. Cant you read the name for who's quoting? I never said that, so dont give me that "I dont care who kills the person, its still wrong" crap..Point it to who made the quote.

DW, thanks for the support, it's rare that I get anything positive on this board.

Lets get back to death penalty for one second, Tidehoss said that the death penalty is not literally killing someone. lol, when someone is put to death, that is killing them, I dont see how being killed is not "literary killing".

Tidehoss I don't care who kills the person, it's still wrong.

DW, You're exactly right on this area being dependent on coal, everyone on this board has shown that. We're so afraid that if coal leaves we will have nothing, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.


I knew I was fighting a losing debate when I stated my opinion on this site, but no matter how many people disagree with me, It will never change my mind I want I think is right. I will not join the rest and be silent as my home is destroyed.

There is a large and growing number of people that opposes MTR, there has always been a large group, but most have never spoken out. I believe that some think turning a deaf ear to them will silence all critics, it's not working for George Bush and it's not going to work for coal companies.

BTW, I love the John Prine quote.

[TidesHoss32]

Notta problem.

Sorry for the mistake, but I wasnt taking a jab at anyone, I was just correcting false ideals like the ones playboy is spitting out.

Sorry if you felt it was a personal attack, it was not. My apologies.

[Coach_Owens87]

Yeah, I didnt say that the death penalty isnt literally killing someone, that was PB5..AGAIN. Whats wrong with you man? Your pre-med. Cant you read the name for who's quoting? I never said that, so dont give me that "I dont care who kills the person, its still wrong" crap..Point it to who made the quote.

I guess I can just hope that a dont have to post on forum sites in pre-med, lol. I think I was glancing at the debate between you and devils win, and typed in your name as I was replying.

[Crossbones]

I knew you would ask that question.

I'm not married, but I have 2 younger sisters that I absolutely adore, if something happened like the story you mentioned I would be absolutely destroyed. It would take a lot from me to not kill the person myself. One thing would stop me though, my faith, I do not believe that I would make things better by stooping to their level and killing them, it would just make me as bad as they are. You say you would want their time in hell served ASAP, but wouldn't you go to hell too? Doesn't the bible warn against the evils of revenge, and if my memory serves me correct god says in the ten commandments "Thou shall not kill". Not matter what happens to the criminal, the victims will never return.

My faith just tells me that killing is wrong, no matter who is killed.

I just have to make a point here, Yes it says Thou shall not kill. But it goes on futher in Deuteronomy 19 and states "That innocent blood be not shed in thy land," There is a difference. I am not in any way tring to take away from your beliefs or your faith.

[Old School]

I researched and tried to find the total area of land mined, I couldn't. I read several articles that gave an estimate, which is 1.2 million acres since 1980, 5% of the total land mass, so according to you coal companies should only mine 1% more of the land, thats just not true. (these stats are from the UK department of agriculture.)


90% of mined land not used[B]I figured you would try to slam my stats, I hate to break you're heart but it didn't come from an environmental site, although I'm sure they have the stats too. The statistics I got came from the UK department of agriculture.[/B]



http://windpub.com/dirtymoney.htm
http://arri.osmre.gov/KYResearch.htm[/quote]

If you check your article again you will find that they estimated 1.2 million acres being permitted, not mined, since 1980, what it doesn't say is how much of the 1.2 million acres are for contour permits, underground permits, roads, prep plants, load outs, rail sites, MTR or other mining related projects.

Even if we mined the estimated 1.2 million acres, and we developed 10% (which I think is higher) of that land it would mean that 120,000 acres of mined land is being used for other purposes.

[cig107]

Can anyone tell me the difference in a Contour Strip Mine and a regular strip mine?

[Playboy5]

Can anyone tell me the difference in a Contour Strip Mine and a regular strip mine?

The Contour or Bench method of surface or strip mining is usually associated with coal, where a seam or multiple seams are located at a certain elevation or elevations through a mountain or hill.
Contour mining allows for the extraction of coal from mountainous areas, where it is not feasible to extract the entire seam, using mountain top removal mining. Contour mining allows for the partial removal of the coal seam at the elevation of the coal seam. Quite often, contour mining is utilized in more than one location on the same mountain.

[cig107]

Ok, thanks man. The MSHA report that I got back from my father's mine said that it was a Contour Mine and I didn't think to ask the MSHA guys about that today...

[RavenBoy]

Coal is BAD!!!

[Old School]

OC87 The photos I spoke of where taken after reclamation, and during the spring, so everything was in full bloom, all that could be seen along the ridges where barren land. Some sites had fescue grass, there root system fights against those of the native trees and makes it nearly impossible for a forest to return.

I need to get out of the big city, lol, last time I checked Hindman Ky was not a "big city", Ive lived in eastern KY all my life, Ive never left my roots.

I know that companies are supposed to put things back, but don't kid yourself and say that they do. Yes some do, but a lot of companies don't. Many companies open subsidiaries, mine a place, and then shut down and move on to another site and do the same thing. I know you say they are flagged and that they have to put up bond money, I know all of that, they put up money, a majority of the amount required to reclaim before they mine, if they shut down, the state then takes over and reclaims. The whole crap about not being able to mine again is bull, yes the subsidiary cant mine, but the head company just moves on.





You can give me all the rules, and regulations from the coal companies that you wont. You can also say that I want to end all mining jobs, and scare people into believing you, it's what you guys do best, but It doesn't matter, I know the rules, I'm just trying to tell you that a lot of coal companies aren't obeying laws and trying to get a good citizen award.

Yeah yeah yeah, coal companies do great things for the communities, the only reason they do that is to keep a good image with a community that is already feared into thinking life cannot go on without them. Thats like saying the mob done great things for the communities in Chicago, or that the terrorist who give money for schools in their region are good people. Them donating money, and doing community projects does not make up for the atrocities they are causing in Appalachia.[/quote]
_____________________________________________________

Since you live in Hindman, and you say there's not a problem with sewage going directly into the streams, Could you do me a favor and find out how the county and city solved this problem, because I know of at least a dozen counties that would love to find a sulution to this problem.

Man either your as stubborn as a ole mule or just refuse to admit that you understand. One more time, COAL COMPANIES HAVE TO RECLAIM ANY PROPERTIES THAT THEY HAVE DISTRUBED, It's the law. As I explained with the Applicant Violator System. Here's a example, now try to follow along with me, John Doe is the owner of Big Coal Co., now Big Coal Co. is the parent company of Small Coal co. and Small Coal Co. is the parent company of Coach Owens Coal Co. When Coach Owens Coal Co. applied for their mining permit they would list John Doe as the owner of Coach Owens Coal Co., now for some reason Coach Owens Coal Co. goes into bond forfeiture, that means that John Doe's name is flagged on the Applicant Violator System and as long as he was listed as a owner or principal officer he would never be granted a mining permit anywhere in the United States. I personally know of one man that let a permit go into bond forfeiture in the 70's and until he retired a few years ago he was never able to obtain a mining premit and could not be hired as a officer with any company.

Another interesting point is when you have subsidiary's like this, if just one of the companies let's say Coach Owens Coal Co. has a unpaid fine or fee overdue then all of the companies owned by Big Coal Co. and John Doe would be permit blocked which means no permits will be approved until all fines or fees have been paid.

Would you please make up your mind, one time you say that coal companies don't care about this region, their employees or the community and all their concerned about is the money. We then give you infomation about them doing work around the area and donating money to local groups, now you the money that they donated is blood money and does not make up for the atrocities they are causing in Appalachia. It sounds like to me that no matter what coal companies do it's not going to good enough for you.

It's funny that you say I'm trying to scare people into believing me, and when ever you turn on the TV or pick up a newspaper someone is crying about fossil fuels destroying the earth. What about Al Gore traveling around the World telling everyone that we have to stop burning coal and stop emitting co2 during the next 6-8 years or the Earth will be doomed, and Gore telling people that the oceans will rise 20 feet and thus wiping out New York City and the whole Eastern and Western Costal areas. Oh yeah I see where I'm trying to scare everyone.

[Old School]

Can anyone tell me the difference in a Contour Strip Mine and a regular strip mine?

MTR (Mountain Top Removal) is when you remove the top of the hill down to the coal seam, which is generally not more that 250' form the top of the mountain.

Contour Mining is done when coal seams are lower on the mountain, a company will mine the coal from the outcrop back into the hillside appox. 120' to 150' leaving close to a 80' highwall (these widths and heights will vary depending on the coal thickness and the steepness of the hillside.

Some mines combine both of these methods, it really depends on the coal seams they are trying to mine.

[cig107]

Yeah that makes more sense...the coal seam my dad was mining was about 60 inches thick...I cant remember the exact height of the highwall but I think it was around 90-100 feet.

[Coach_Owens87]

OC87 The photos I spoke of where taken after reclamation, and during the spring, so everything was in full bloom, all that could be seen along the ridges where barren land. Some sites had fescue grass, there root system fights against those of the native trees and makes it nearly impossible for a forest to return.

I need to get out of the big city, lol, last time I checked Hindman Ky was not a "big city", Ive lived in eastern KY all my life, Ive never left my roots.

I know that companies are supposed to put things back, but don't kid yourself and say that they do. Yes some do, but a lot of companies don't. Many companies open subsidiaries, mine a place, and then shut down and move on to another site and do the same thing. I know you say they are flagged and that they have to put up bond money, I know all of that, they put up money, a majority of the amount required to reclaim before they mine, if they shut down, the state then takes over and reclaims. The whole crap about not being able to mine again is bull, yes the subsidiary cant mine, but the head company just moves on.





You can give me all the rules, and regulations from the coal companies that you wont. You can also say that I want to end all mining jobs, and scare people into believing you, it's what you guys do best, but It doesn't matter, I know the rules, I'm just trying to tell you that a lot of coal companies aren't obeying laws and trying to get a good citizen award.

Yeah yeah yeah, coal companies do great things for the communities, the only reason they do that is to keep a good image with a community that is already feared into thinking life cannot go on without them. Thats like saying the mob done great things for the communities in Chicago, or that the terrorist who give money for schools in their region are good people. Them donating money, and doing community projects does not make up for the atrocities they are causing in Appalachia.

_____________________________________________________

Since you live in Hindman, and you say there's not a problem with sewage going directly into the streams, Could you do me a favor and find out how the county and city solved this problem, because I know of at least a dozen counties that would love to find a sulution to this problem.

Man either your as stubborn as a ole mule or just refuse to admit that you understand. One more time, COAL COMPANIES HAVE TO RECLAIM ANY PROPERTIES THAT THEY HAVE DISTRUBED, It's the law. As I explained with the Applicant Violator System. Here's a example, now try to follow along with me, John Doe is the owner of Big Coal Co., now Big Coal Co. is the parent company of Small Coal co. and Small Coal Co. is the parent company of Coach Owens Coal Co. When Coach Owens Coal Co. applied for their mining permit they would list John Doe as the owner of Coach Owens Coal Co., now for some reason Coach Owens Coal Co. goes into bond forfeiture, that means that John Doe's name is flagged on the Applicant Violator System and as long as he was listed as a owner or principal officer he would never be granted a mining permit anywhere in the United States. I personally know of one man that let a permit go into bond forfeiture in the 70's and until he retired a few years ago he was never able to obtain a mining premit and could not be hired as a officer with any company.

Another interesting point is when you have subsidiary's like this, if just one of the companies let's say Coach Owens Coal Co. has a unpaid fine or fee overdue then all of the companies owned by Big Coal Co. and John Doe would be permit blocked which means no permits will be approved until all fines or fees have been paid.

Would you please make up your mind, one time you say that coal companies don't care about this region, their employees or the community and all their concerned about is the money. We then give you infomation about them doing work around the area and donating money to local groups, now you the money that they donated is blood money and does not make up for the atrocities they are causing in Appalachia. It sounds like to me that no matter what coal companies do it's not going to good enough for you.

It's funny that you say I'm trying to scare people into believing me, and when ever you turn on the TV or pick up a newspaper someone is crying about fossil fuels destroying the earth. What about Al Gore traveling around the World telling everyone that we have to stop burning coal and stop emitting co2 during the next 6-8 years or the Earth will be doomed, and Gore telling people that the oceans will rise 20 feet and thus wiping out New York City and the whole Eastern and Western Costal areas. Oh yeah I see where I'm trying to scare everyone.[/QUOTE]

Old school, you're not understanding what I've been saying. I never said running sewage into a stream wasn't a problem, just that it's not as bad now as it used to be. Coal companies need to take responsibility for the damages they cause.

I know land must be reclaimed, Ive stated that. We can argue all day about that, all ive ever tried to state is that something needs to be done to make coal companies obey all the laws, which doesn't really matter now that George Bush changed the clean water act by changing the meaning of what can be dumped into streams.

Im not an idiot, I understand the law youre explaining to me, but youre being the stubborn one. You know as well as I do that all coal companies do not follow the laws. If they did, no one would complain. There's so many loopholes around the laws you speak of that it is very easy to get by with things.

Did I ever say that Al Gore doesn't try to scare people, UMMM no, but he does it with scientific fact. Does his actions make him look like a hypocrite? Yes, But thats not part of this debate.

And as far as the money coal companies donate, it doesn't matter, they are still out for number one, just like any other company. They get tax breaks for donating money like that, do you really think they would donate money out of the kindness of their heart. The point I was trying to make, which seems that no one can think deep enough to get is that big companies are out for themselves. I'm not so harsh that no matter what they do I will hate them, which is what you're claiming that I do. Thats just no so, the thing is that I just cant find myself defending a company that is destroying one of the oldest mountain ranges in the world because they donate a little money to communities to get critics off their backs. TECO gives money to the sorry excuse for a clean-up organization PRIDE, they say they are environmentally friendly, even though they have a terrible record for being the opposite. I just cant see myself defend such companies just becuase they give a little money to receive a tax break.

[Coach_Owens87]

I researched and tried to find the total area of land mined, I couldn't. I read several articles that gave an estimate, which is 1.2 million acres since 1980, 5% of the total land mass, so according to you coal companies should only mine 1% more of the land, thats just not true. (these stats are from the UK department of agriculture.)


90% of mined land not used[B]I figured you would try to slam my stats, I hate to break you're heart but it didn't come from an environmental site, although I'm sure they have the stats too. The statistics I got came from the UK department of agriculture.[/B]



http://windpub.com/dirtymoney.htm
http://arri.osmre.gov/KYResearch.htm

If you check your article again you will find that they estimated 1.2 million acres being permitted, not mined, since 1980, what it doesn't say is how much of the 1.2 million acres are for contour permits, underground permits, roads, prep plants, load outs, rail sites, MTR or other mining related projects.

Even if we mined the estimated 1.2 million acres, and we developed 10% (which I think is higher) of that land it would mean that 120,000 acres of mined land is being used for other purposes.[/QUOTE]

I know my stats are estimates, I told you that was all I could find. Buts it's as close as I could get.

I could only find estimates on how much of that land has been developed, some sites, which arent from "Tree-hugging" sites say that as little as 2% has been developed. A look at google earth, which has constantly updated photos, shows that very little land is developed, Anything above 5% would be a stretch. A lot of Strip sites are located in isolated areas, which make them very hard to get people into moving business there.

The slurry ponds companies leave sometimes develop into marshes and attract small amounts of wildlife, they call this a "wildlife reserve" and claim it to be a developed area. Most of these sites are just small ponds surrounded by vast amounts of nothing but grass and dirt, hardly a wildlife reserve in a forested area.

[Playboy5]

I have an idea, why don't you repeat the same post everytime and make you sound as smart as you can make yourself....BECAUSE YOU ARE BEATING A DEAD HORSE!

[DevilsWin]

I have an idea, why don't you repeat the same post everytime and make you sound as smart as you can make yourself....BECAUSE YOU ARE BEATING A DEAD HORSE!

You really think alot of yourself don't ya Playboy?

[Playboy5]

Yes I do Actually ! And I have reason too!

[Redneck]

Coal is BAD!!!

Why don't you go without power for about 30 days in a row then tell us how BAD coal is .

[DevilsWin]

In the 1920's and 30's both of my grandfather's lived and worked in Floyd County. Their fathers before them worked in the coal mines.
They wanted a better life for their sons and their sons(my Grandfathers) wanted to do better for themselves. They both traveled north with help and support form their fathers(my Great Grandfathers) to find a better job so their children(my parents) could live outside of the isolation of the mountains.
One of them got a job working on the C&O Railroad and years later retired. The other after joining the US Army and seving in the Pacific during WW2 and earning a Bronze Star for Valor got a job at the Ashland Works Steel Milling Co(Armco, AK Steel) and later retired there.

I went to Floyd Co last year with my father for the very first time to visit with some of his cousins(who are in their 80's now) that he hadn't seen in nearly 40 years.Thsi is not the only time I have visited Floyd Co. Just the first time to visit with family. After talking to them I realized how different my life might have been if my grandparents hadn't made the decision to move to Ashland.

They saw the writing on the wall.

I know and understand the problems facing families in the mountains. They don't want a hand out. They don't want sympathy. All they want is a way to better themselves. Coal for so long was the only way to earn a good living. With the exception of earning a scholarship to go to college. Or taking over in the family business.
That state of mind has endured for decades and I'll tell you why. It is a proven method of survival. Fight for your job , fight for your family, fight for coal.
I understand how all of you feel and why you feel the way you do. But the winds of change are upon us and the land that has provided our families prosperity for so many generations is under attack.

Not from coal miners, but rather Coal Barrons.

Coal is not King anymore.

Good luck and God Bless.

[Old School]

If you check your article again you will find that they estimated 1.2 million acres being permitted, not mined, since 1980, what it doesn't say is how much of the 1.2 million acres are for contour permits, underground permits, roads, prep plants, load outs, rail sites, MTR or other mining related projects.

Even if we mined the estimated 1.2 million acres, and we developed 10% (which I think is higher) of that land it would mean that 120,000 acres of mined land is being used for other purposes.

I know my stats are estimates, I told you that was all I could find. Buts it's as close as I could get.

I could only find estimates on how much of that land has been developed, some sites, which arent from "Tree-hugging" sites say that as little as 2% has been developed. A look at google earth, which has constantly updated photos, shows that very little land is developed, Anything above 5% would be a stretch. A lot of Strip sites are located in isolated areas, which make them very hard to get people into moving business there.

The slurry ponds companies leave sometimes develop into marshes and attract small amounts of wildlife, they call this a "wildlife reserve" and claim it to be a developed area. Most of these sites are just small ponds surrounded by vast amounts of nothing but grass and dirt, hardly a wildlife reserve in a forested area.[/quote]

______________________________________________________________________
I'm not talking about your stats being estimates, I'm talking about where they say 1.2 million acres were permitted, that does not mean that 1.2 million acres were actually mined. Some companies have the luxury of permitting about 5 years ahead of their current mining, also it is almost impossible to mine every acre of a permit. During my 27 years in the mining I have found that we may average 85% to 90% of the acreage permitted will be distrubed, also the estimated 1.2 million acres is not broken down to tell how many acres were permitted for Haul Roads, Prep Plants, River Loading Facilities, Deep Mines, Slurry Impoundments or other Coal related projects.

You may be able to Google and see the active mining operations, but can you tell which areas have be reclaimed, we currently have two or three permits that I think would be hard to tell from Google's photo's.

If I'm not mistake you are the one that said that 90% of the land is not being used, so that would mean that 10% is being used, in another thread you said only 1% of the land was being used, then the other day you said 10% was being used and now you're saying only 5% in being used, would you please pick a number and stick with it.

I'm glad you brought up the issue about some strip mine sites being located in isolated areas, and without building better access to these areas they will never be used. Coal severance tax money would really help in these areas.

Now let me ask you a question exactly what is a slurry pond company?

Are you referring to "wetlands" ?

[cig107]

In the 1920's and 30's both of my grandfather's lived and worked in Floyd County. Their fathers before them worked in the coal mines.
They wanted a better life for their sons and their sons(my Grandfathers) wanted to do better for themselves. They both traveled north with help and support form their fathers(my Great Grandfathers) to find a better job so their children(my parents) could live outside of the isolation of the mountains.
One of them got a job working on the C&O Railroad and years later retired. The other after joining the US Army and seving in the Pacific during WW2 and earning a Bronze Star for Valor got a job at the Ashland Works Steel Milling Co(Armco, AK Steel) and later retired there.

I went to Floyd Co last year with my father for the very first time to visit with some of his cousins(who are in their 80's now) that he hadn't seen in nearly 40 years.Thsi is not the only time I have visited Floyd Co. Just the first time to visit with family. After talking to them I realized how different my life might have been if my grandparents hadn't made the decision to move to Ashland.

They saw the writing on the wall.

I know and understand the problems facing families in the mountains. They don't want a hand out. They don't want sympathy. All they want is a way to better themselves. Coal for so long was the only way to earn a good living. With the exception of earning a scholarship to go to college. Or taking over in the family business.
That state of mind has endured for decades and I'll tell you why. It is a proven method of survival. Fight for your job , fight for your family, fight for coal.
I understand how all of you feel and why you feel the way you do. But the winds of change are upon us and the land that has provided our families prosperity for so many generations is under attack.

Not from coal miners, but rather Coal Barrons.

Coal is not King anymore.

Good luck and God Bless.

That is the best post I have seen in a while. My dad came out of High School and went to college for one year. He told me that back then "coal was where the money was at". He was right too. He hit it big in the early 80's. Then in the late 80's the price went down for coal and he went bankrupt. He died trying to get back to the "glory days" as he calls them and I'm not about to turn my back on coal mining. I will support it until the day I die. It is a way of life around here. Some people work there asses of their WHOLE life just to make enough money to get by. There just simply no other jobs with the same benefits and pay as coal mining. Like I said, I will support it until the day I die.

[Old School]

[quote=Coach_Owens87]_____________________________________________________

]

Old school, you're not understanding what I've been saying. I never said running sewage into a stream wasn't a problem, just that it's not as bad now as it used to be. Coal companies need to take responsibility for the damages they cause.

I know land must be reclaimed, Ive stated that. We can argue all day about that, all ive ever tried to state is that something needs to be done to make coal companies obey all the laws, which doesn't really matter now that George Bush changed the clean water act by changing the meaning of what can be dumped into streams.

Im not an idiot, I understand the law youre explaining to me, but youre being the stubborn one. You know as well as I do that all coal companies do not follow the laws. If they did, no one would complain. There's so many loopholes around the laws you speak of that it is very easy to get by with things.

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Have you ever heard of the Code of Federal Regulations or otherwise known as CFR-30, if not it is a book that list all of the Federal laws and guidelines for coal mining. The CFR-30 contains over 700 pages of laws and guidelines, this does not include the States Regulations which in West Virginia contains over 300 pages of it's own laws and guidelines, if you combine both Federal and State that makes over 1,000 pages of laws to follow. Now you want Coal Companies to obey all of these laws, do you know of anyone that can obey that many laws, because I sure don't, I think the majority of the companys try to do their very best to stay within the guide lines.
Here's a few examples of the laws:
1) Road berms are to be half the height of the tallest wheel on the operation, lets say that would require a 4' high berm now you have 10 miles of haul roads on the property, if anywhere along this 10 mile streach of road the berm was to be less than the approved 4' height even 3'10" would be a violation, if there were 5 such places that would be 5 violations.
2)Trees and Tree Stumps are not allowed in the hollow fill area, so a inspector finds a 8' log or a tree stump in the hollow fill area, that's a violation.
These are just two of the laws that we have to go by, Keep in mind I not making lite of any law, I know they are there for a reason, but when there are over one thousand laws it is easy to see how some like these can be overlooked.

Why is it that streams can be filled in to build roads and that's ok, contractors can build shopping centers and fill in streams and thats ok, just last week the State Highway Department moved a backhoe (that's on tracks) and a small bull dozier into the creek in front of my house and worked for 3 days and that's ok. I personally don't have a problem with any of the above. But if a Coal Company were to get into the creek we would receive fines and violations. Why is there a double standard, if a Coal Company can't fill in a small stream (majority of which only flow when it rains) for a hollow fill, no one should be able to fill in streams?

[Football Widow]

Please CO87, tell me how your community decreased the amount of straight pipes in your community! Could part of it been from that terrible group that you bashed called "PRIDE"? Yes that's right. Pride gave thousands of dollars to try to clean up the creeks! Although it probably had a minimal effect because there is still thousands upon thousands of pipes out there, at least they tried. You have to also take into account that sewage is also anything from the sink, tub, and washing machine. These are rampant in eastern kentucky and also in your county as much now as they were back then.

My immediate family member is in a position to be the "decision maker" on donating money, scholarships, and any community projects from coal companies. He doesn't do this because he feels like he has too. He does this because he knows that there are communities out there that need help to accomplish tasks or send the younger generation to school. Sure his company may get a task write off, but you mean that you wouldn't take one on your taxes if you were able too? I feel like mining companies do try to follow the law just like everyone else. Also, once these mines get finished with the land, it does produce flat land in the county that can be used for schools, industrial site, landfills, etc. Flat land is few and far between in eastern kentucky. If you want people to come back to the area (like you said you would want to one day) you must have places for them to build. Why do you think up in the head of the hollows, people build on top of one another....Because they have no where else to go.

Also, if you know any of the "flatlanders" that come to pray on our mountains, could you ask them to pray for like a cure for cancer or maybe for me to win the lottery?

Boy oh, Old School, you know your stuff!