[Coach_Owens87]

Please CO87, tell me how your community decreased the amount of straight pipes in your community! Could part of it been from that terrible group that you bashed called "PRIDE"? Yes that's right. Pride gave thousands of dollars to try to clean up the creeks! Although it probably had a minimal effect because there is still thousands upon thousands of pipes out there, at least they tried. You have to also take into account that sewage is also anything from the sink, tub, and washing machine. These are rampant in eastern kentucky and also in your county as much now as they were back then.

My immediate family member is in a position to be the "decision maker" on donating money, scholarships, and any community projects from coal companies. He doesn't do this because he feels like he has too. He does this because he knows that there are communities out there that need help to accomplish tasks or send the younger generation to school. Sure his company may get a task write off, but you mean that you wouldn't take one on your taxes if you were able too? I feel like mining companies do try to follow the law just like everyone else. Also, once these mines get finished with the land, it does produce flat land in the county that can be used for schools, industrial site, landfills, etc. Flat land is few and far between in eastern kentucky. If you want people to come back to the area (like you said you would want to one day) you must have places for them to build. Why do you think up in the head of the hollows, people build on top of one another....Because they have no where else to go.

Also, if you know any of the "flatlander" that come to pray on our mountains, could you ask them to pray for like a cure for cancer or maybe for me to win the lottery?

Boy oh, Old School, you know your stuff!

Why is everyone saying that I stated sewage running into streams is not a problem, I never said that, Im just trying to say that there more things are happening here than liotering and sewage issues. Mining is polluting our streams and rivers on a bigger scale than people like to think.
You say that pride had an effect on changing sewage problems, and they have, in the last few years over 25,000 people have been added to municipal sewage systems. , I never stated that pride didnt help some, but things wont change here until people change their attitudes, It's just ironic that "Pride" is telling us to appreciate natural beauty, so we go out and clean up, while companies are stripping down the mountains all around us. How can we have pride in our region when we are letting people haul it off?
The reason that I don't like the "pride" program is becuase people here don't have "Pride" in their community. So the whole idea is kinda busted from the start. Don't get me wrong, Pride is a great idea, but I just don't think it is working to well, they need to change their strategies,small scale clean-ups a few times a year don't do much, we need to educate people and make them understand the beauty of this area, and how littering destroys that. Stricter enforcement of loitering fines would help also. This is one of the only regions I know where littering is so rampant. Sewage problems are an issue too, and I think thats why people let the things happening from coal companies slide. We already destroy this area, so what does it matter if companies come in and do the same thing?

And please don't give me that crap about needing more flat land, we don't use what we have, so why do we need more. And you say that flat land would bring people back in, I don't think so. Look at areas of Appalachia in Tennessee and North Carolina, they have striving cities like Asheville, Pigeon forge/Gatlinburg, they have great economies, and why is that? It's becuase they market their natural beauty, people love to see that, they don't like to see "Flat land" in an area where mountains are supposed to be. Now I know that those areas sit in valleys, (which is something we have few of here.) but they don't destroy everything around them and claim it as "progress".

You also proved a point that DW was trying to make, people here stand up from mining becuase they have a long family tradition with mining. A have a family tradition with it also, all of my uncles, 7 of them, and many other family members, work in the mines, or have worked in the mines at some point. IT makes it very hard for me to speak out against something my family is so tied up in, but I cant sit back and not speak my mind.

[Coach_Owens87]

I know my stats are estimates, I told you that was all I could find. Buts it's as close as I could get.

I could only find estimates on how much of that land has been developed, some sites, which arent from "Tree-hugging" sites say that as little as 2% has been developed. A look at google earth, which has constantly updated photos, shows that very little land is developed, Anything above 5% would be a stretch. A lot of Strip sites are located in isolated areas, which make them very hard to get people into moving business there.

The slurry ponds companies leave sometimes develop into marshes and attract small amounts of wildlife, they call this a "wildlife reserve" and claim it to be a developed area. Most of these sites are just small ponds surrounded by vast amounts of nothing but grass and dirt, hardly a wildlife reserve in a forested area.

______________________________________________________________________
I'm not talking about your stats being estimates, I'm talking about where they say 1.2 million acres were permitted, that does not mean that 1.2 million acres were actually mined. Some companies have the luxury of permitting about 5 years ahead of their current mining, also it is almost impossible to mine every acre of a permit. During my 27 years in the mining I have found that we may average 85% to 90% of the acreage permitted will be distrubed, also the estimated 1.2 million acres is not broken down to tell how many acres were permitted for Haul Roads, Prep Plants, River Loading Facilities, Deep Mines, Slurry Impoundments or other Coal related projects.

You may be able to Google and see the active mining operations, but can you tell which areas have be reclaimed, we currently have two or three permits that I think would be hard to tell from Google's photo's.

If I'm not mistake you are the one that said that 90% of the land is not being used, so that would mean that 10% is being used, in another thread you said only 1% of the land was being used, then the other day you said 10% was being used and now you're saying only 5% in being used, would you please pick a number and stick with it.

I'm glad you brought up the issue about some strip mine sites being located in isolated areas, and without building better access to these areas they will never be used. Coal severance tax money would really help in these areas.

Now let me ask you a question exactly what is a slurry pond company?

Are you referring to "wetlands" ?[/QUOTE]

Yes You can take my stats and rip them apart, which is fine, I expected you to do that. I know all I have is estimates, but at least I provided a number that has some type of study to back it. You didnt provide any of the such on land being mined.

The google photos from google earth are updated, real time photos, they have a special program on that now called "memorial for the mountains" in which you can take close up looks at some active and closed mine sites. You can zoom in to about 1,500 feet above the land, and you can go closer to some sites, so the photos are high quality. They also provide before and after photos so you can judge reclamation efforts for yourself. Google earth is a satellite based program that allows you to view any point in the world.

I need to proof read my post, I didn't mean slurry pond companies, but rather slurry ponds left by companies.

And I did not say 90%, I stated that some sites estimate between 1-2% being used, and some go as high as nearly 10%. The most accurate estimate seems to be that 2% of mined land has been developed. But no more than 10% has been developed.

[CarD_Krazi_5]

like others have said..in eastern kentucy coal mining is what keeps our economy up and things running. so why would anyone be against it?

[Old School]

Home values But 90% of mined land is not used, so that argument doesn't hold up.

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Coach Owens you may want to check post # 62 where I believe you said " But 90% of mined land is not used". I maybe wrong but if you say 90% of mined land is not used, then that would mean that 10% of the mined land is used.

A few post back when you said that I was the stubbron one....well I showed your commit to my wife and she wanted me to give you a thumbs up :Thumbs: she said that she's be telling me that since 1978.

[Old School]

[quote=Coach_Owens87;408164.


Yes You can take my stats and rip them apart, which is fine, I expected you to do that. I know all I have is estimates, but at least I provided a number that has some type of study to back it. You didnt provide any of the such on land being mined.

[/quote]
__________________________________________________________________
Coach let's go back to post # 67, where you referenced the the Appalachian Regional Reforestation Initative
The report said and I quote (Since 1980, an estimated 1.2 million acres were permitted for coal mining).

Coach Owens said and I quote (I researched and tried to find the total area of land mined, I couldn't. I read several articles that gave an estimate, which was 1.2 million acres since 1980).
I am not concerned with the 1.2 million acres being estimated, my concern is that everyone will not see where you changed it from permitted, to land mined. There is a big differance between permitted acres and mined acres as I have stated before. I also did not mention the fact that some areas are permitted and may never be mined, and I have also seen where some permits were turned back in to the State, and 5 or 6 years later another company would come in and permit the area again. If underground mines are included in the estimated 1.2 million acres, then another problem comes up, what about the areas that have multiple seams. I know of areas in Pike County that can have as many as 4 or 5 different coal seams that have been underground mined. Are they counting the permitted acres in each seam? if so then some of the acres are being counted multiple times. Now are they including underground acreages in the estimated 1.2 million acres, I don't know, I also don't know if or how they are counting the multiple seam issue. I too have looked for the total mined acres, but like you I've not found anything.

[Coal Miner]

All of those against it, kiss it. I work my ass off 6 days a week to make a decent living for me and my family. I worked under ground for 5 years before leaving for the surface. Like some have said, how would like to live without electricity thru the winter months??? Cause without COAL, you wouldn't have any. Some of you are so ungrateful it's pathetic. I got alot more respect for any man risking his life underground everyday then what I do for some fancy lawyer that sits behind a desk all day. I'm not sayin lawyers don't work hard, but not everyone has the brains to be a lawyer.

[Coach_Owens87]

All of those against it, kiss it. I work my ass off 6 days a week to make a decent living for me and my family. I worked under ground for 5 years before leaving for the surface. Like some have said, how would like to live without electricity thru the winter months??? Cause without COAL, you wouldn't have any. Some of you are so ungrateful it's pathetic. I got alot more respect for any man risking his life underground everyday then what I do for some fancy lawyer that sits behind a desk all day. I'm not sayin lawyers don't work hard, but not everyone has the brains to be a lawyer.

Well i'm glad you came in here to spread your anger. No on is saying you don't work hard, believe me I know you do. This argument isn't against the workers, it's against the devastating form of mining called MTR.

[Coach_Owens87]

Old School. I will agree with you that the total land mass mined is very difficult to find. Thats one of the problems that I tried to bring up, just who is keeping track of the land being mined? I believe that those stats should be very easy to access, the public should be able to know how much of our land is being mined. I know that in my local newspaper a page is dedicated to showing new permits for mining. So the stats should be somewhere, I just don't know why they are so hard to find.

The estimate that I offered does have multiple problems, many of which you mentioned. The total land mass mined could be a lot less than 1.2, and it could be more, but in either case thats a lot of land. 1.2 million acres makes up 5% of Ky, Coal companies have told us that only 6% of the land is suitable for mining, it just doesn't seem to me that things are slowing down, I believe more than 6% will be mined.

[Coach_Owens87]

____________________________________________________________________________
Coach Owens you may want to check post # 62 where I believe you said " But 90% of mined land is not used". I maybe wrong but if you say 90% of mined land is not used, then that would mean that 10% of the mined land is used.

A few post back when you said that I was the stubbron one....well I showed your commit to my wife and she wanted me to give you a thumbs up :Thumbs: she said that she's be telling me that since 1978.

lol

[DevilsWin]

All of those against it, kiss it. I work my ass off 6 days a week to make a decent living for me and my family. I worked under ground for 5 years before leaving for the surface. Like some have said, how would like to live without electricity thru the winter months??? Cause without COAL, you wouldn't have any. Some of you are so ungrateful it's pathetic. I got alot more respect for any man risking his life underground everyday then what I do for some fancy lawyer that sits behind a desk all day. I'm not sayin lawyers don't work hard, but not everyone has the brains to be a lawyer.

If it weren't for coal we would all rely on solar, wind, nuclear and hydroelectric power.

You and others just want to scare people into thinking that the government would just shut down AEP without another system in place..... Not gonna happen.

This is a serious philosophical and technical debate. Please don't try to inject unless you have something constructive to say.

I've known alot of lawyers with what seemed to me like little or no brains. I've also met some very intelligent coal miners.

[Redneck]

If it weren't for coal we would all rely on solar, wind, nuclear and hydroelectric power.

You and others just want to scare people into thinking that the government would just shut down AEP without another system in place..... Not gonna happen.

This is a serious philosophical and technical debate. Please don't try to inject unless you have something constructive to say.

I've known alot of lawyers with what seemed to me like little or no brains. I've also met some very intelligent coal miners.

I gotta agree with Coal Miner on this on this one Devil. How much would it cost the state to produce electricity thru solar, wind, nuclear and hydroelectric power? The BIGGER question is, HOW MUCH more taxes are us hard workin folk gonna have to pay for them big wind mills or a nuclear power plant??? And if every coal mine in KY was shut down monday, we WOULD be without power for a while beacuse there isn't enough stock piles to burn til a nuclear plant etc. was built. I got another question, what would happen to the 1,000's of coal miners that would lose their jobs.

[TidesHoss32]

Great questions, and a great post Redneck. My question is this, how is one of the poorest regions in the entire nation going to be able to afford this new energy? I dont think you'll see coal being replaced, especially in this region for several generations for two reasons. Number one, these environmentalists have been placing these "replace coal" threats for years, yet when it comes down to it, nobody wants to invest that kind of money TO replace coal. And that goes not only for the politicians against coal, but the working people that wont be able to afford it. I mean really, this is a country that charges $1.39 for a 20 ounce bottle of water for crying out loud. For those that say "itll be cheaper, natural, blah blah blah", yeah but something has to pay for those plants, and Ill guarantee you itll be so outrageous, that no one, maybe a fraction of a percent will be able to pay for power in their own homes. This will affect businesses (what few are around here), companies, as well as homes. And like you said, if coal is phased out, your taking the highest source of income for families around here, what will THESE people do? This area will be STILL be an afterthought, and Ill bet those politicians that are trying to phase out coal, wont give a crap about our even lower level of poverty.

I gotta agree with Coal Miner on this on this one Devil. How much would it cost the state to produce electricity thru solar, wind, nuclear and hydroelectric power? The BIGGER question is, HOW MUCH more taxes are us hard workin folk gonna have to pay for them big wind mills or a nuclear power plant??? And if every coal mine in KY was shut down monday, we WOULD be without power for a while beacuse there isn't enough stock piles to burn til a nuclear plant etc. was built. I got another question, what would happen to the 1,000's of coal miners that would lose their jobs.

[cig107]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowest-inco...ted_States

Look at that site. That's why all we do is coal mine around here...atleast Pike County isn't one of those...

[DevilsWin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowest-inco...ted_States

Look at that site. That's why all we do is coal mine around here...atleast Pike County isn't one of those...

Great post Cig107! Pike Co must be the exception. Alot of coal in Pike Co. I heard years ago that the Matewan Bank in WV is one of the wealthiest banks in the world due to the amount of coal money.

[RavenBoy]

I see there is alot of road work in KY, I wonder how that gets paid for.

[cig107]

Great post Cig107! Pike Co must be the exception. Alot of coal in Pike Co. I heard years ago that the Matewan Bank in WV is one of the wealthiest banks in the world due to the amount of coal money.

GO PIKE COUNTY!! lol it is probably 101st on that list...

[Tailback44]

Im deff for Coaling Mining, i would like to work in the mines what does it take to be a coal miner these days? any college? or anything?

[Redneck]

cig, man, I know you have had a rough time dealin with the tragic minin death of your father and I'm sorry you had to go thru with that, but facts are facts. You know this region couldn't make it without coal, this state couldn't make it without coal (same goes for alot of other states). My step has been an underground miner for 24 years, him and my mom are gettin ready to pack it up and move to Florida. And guess who he is goin to work for. TECO (I'm sure you've heard of em), and do you got any idea what TECO stands for, TAMPA ELECTRIC. He use to work for Diamond May, and do you know who owned Diamond May. Progress Fuels owned Diamond May. DO you know where Progress Fuels is, Tampa, Fl. See, there are ALOT of other places that benefit from coal mining, not just us.

[Coach_Owens87]

cig, man, I know you have had a rough time dealin with the tragic minin death of your father and I'm sorry you had to go thru with that, but facts are facts. You know this region couldn't make it without coal, this state couldn't make it without coal (same goes for alot of other states). My step has been an underground miner for 24 years, him and my mom are gettin ready to pack it up and move to Florida. And guess who he is goin to work for. TECO (I'm sure you've heard of em), and do you got any idea what TECO stands for, TAMPA ELECTRIC. He use to work for Diamond May, and do you know who owned Diamond May. Progress Fuels owned Diamond May. DO you know where Progress Fuels is, Tampa, Fl. See, there are ALOT of other places that benefit from coal mining, not just us.

You made a great point, a lot of other areas do benefit from mining, but it's at our expense. Do you really think people in tampa know what TECO does, some do, but most dont. A lot of the coal money that people around here work so hard for goes to other states and makes other men/women rich. It's just ironic that so much money is created out of this area, but as the list CIG107 provided shows, it doenst stay here.

[Redneck]

You made a great point, a lot of other areas do benefit from mining, but it's at our expense. Do you really think people in tampa know what TECO does, some do, but most dont. A lot of the coal money that people around here work so hard for goes to other states and makes other men/women rich. It's just ironic that so much money is created out of this area, but as the list CIG107 provided shows, it doenst stay here.

I'd say plenty in Tampa knows what TECO does considerin they get to see trains loaded down with coal enter and exit the coal burnin plant everyday. Just like Progress Fuels, TECO bought out a coal company here. Diamond May USE to be Kentucky May til Progress Fuels bought them out.

[DevilsWin]

I'd say plenty in Tampa knows what TECO does considerin they get to see trains loaded down with coal enter and exit the coal burnin plant everyday. Just like Progress Fuels, TECO bought out a coal company here. Diamond May USE to be Kentucky May til Progress Fuels bought them out.

I used to work for Progress my father still does and let me just say that Progress could give a shit about their employees.

[Redneck]

I used to work for Progress my father still does and let me just say that Progress could give a shit about their employees.

My stepdad worked for em until they sold out to Alpha, he now works for ICG.

[Redneck]

You made a great point, a lot of other areas do benefit from mining, but it's at our expense. Do you really think people in tampa know what TECO does, some do, but most dont. A lot of the coal money that people around here work so hard for goes to other states and makes other men/women rich. It's just ironic that so much money is created out of this area, but as the list CIG107 provided shows, it doenst stay here.

How did Belfry get that big state of the art football stadium? If I'm not mistakin, two coal companies donated the money. What about all the schools in the area that recieve money from coal companies. I know there's a coal company that sponsors Paintsville, I'm sure Jim Booth sponsors Sheldon Clark etc.

[GRIZZ]

I agree with Redneck, a lot of the mines in the area give back to the community. A buddy of mine is in the Mining Engineering program at UK and they offer grants and summer employment to local kids, most of the time have a spot for them when they graduate. They also contribute to the area kids with financial contributions to their school for athletic and academic purposes. If mining wasn't in the area it is hard telling what eastern Kentucky would look like. Van Lear was a prosperous part of Johnson County back in the day, but when the mines shut down in Van Lear the community did as well.

[Playboy5]

I know TECO gave my high school baseball team $500.00, which when you are coaching, is a blessing! TECO has given so many schools and programs so many things that they know could never be repayed! IMO, TECO is a class act company and it shows!

[OffTheHook]

I agree that they do give back to the community. BUT, They need to be giving more to them boys who are under the hill, who are risking their lives day in and day out everyday. They are the ones who deserve the credit for everything. If not for them there wouldn't be any coal. Good bless the Coal Miner. The most under appreciated and unrespected job on the planet.

[Playboy5]

Agree OffTheHook. Very much so!

[DevilsWin]

I agree that they do give back to the community. BUT, They need to be giving more to them boys who are under the hill, who are risking their lives day in and day out everyday. They are the ones who deserve the credit for everything. If not for them there wouldn't be any coal. Good bless the Coal Miner. The most under appreciated and unrespected job on the planet.

I agree as well. All these great things the coal companies do for their communities is just a cover-up so we'll forget about all the bad stuff they're doing to our water supply and the rest of our environment.

By the way, have you heard. Black Lung is on the rise again.

[Playboy5]

Well I guess so many people need to stop smoking then, huh!

[DevilsWin]

Well I guess so many people need to stop smoking then, huh!

BLACK LUNG HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SMOKING!