[Fenix]

Of course, Moore is a liberal. Moore sees the inconsistencies
in others, but perhaps lacks that ability in himself. "Would
some power the gift give us to see ourselves as others see us."
That's a human nature problem, not a liberal/conservative one.
Again, I think most proponents of "make sure everybody has
coverage" healthcare in the US don't visualize the throwing
away of private insurance. I don't think a guy working two
jobs, both part-time, not covered either place, should have
to suffer an illness without care in the United States of
America. I think EVERY child, regardless of income level,
should receive as good a care as possible. I don't think
we have to socialize medicine to get there.

I don't think children can be turned down for healthcare, can they?

[DevilsWin]

I don't think children can be turned down for healthcare, can they?

Absolutely! Here is an example I know someone who had a child on a Govt Medical card. When the childs father got a job, the medical card got cancelled. With less than 3 months on the job he got laid-off. So that left them with no health coverage for their child during the period he was out of work. 8 million children in the U.S. have no health insurance or coverage. Some hospitals will refuse treatment due to the lack of insurance and the liability problem.

I saw a piece on 60 minutes a couple weeks ago where the new prescription drug bill had taken away the Gov't's ability to negotiate prescription prices for patients on medicare(which you pay into). The Veterans Administration is allowed to negotiate prices. The result is that a common prescription that the VA is allowed to negotiate would cost a Veteran like myself $150 bucks. But the same prescription bought by a Medicare patient would cost more than $1400 for the same amount. This is what needs to change. Oh and BTW the Republican Congressman who championed this bill was made the head of a major drug manufacturer after the bill was passed, and given a 2 million dollar annual salary.

[Fenix]

Absolutely! Here is an example I know someone who had a child on a Govt Medical card. When the childs father got a job, the medical card got cancelled. With less than 3 months on the job he got laid-off. So that left them with no health coverage for their child during the period he was out of work. 8 million children in the U.S. have no health insurance or coverage. Some hospitals will refuse treatment due to the lack of insurance and the liability problem.

I saw a piece on 60 minutes a couple weeks ago where the new prescription drug bill had taken away the Gov't's ability to negotiate prescription prices for patients on medicare(which you pay into). The Veterans Administration is allowed to negotiate prices. The result is that a common prescription that the VA is allowed to negotiate would cost a Veteran like myself $150 bucks. But the same prescription bought by a Medicare patient would cost more than $1400 for the same amount. This is what needs to change. Oh and BTW the Republican Congressman who championed this bill was made the head of a major drug manufacturer after the bill was passed, and given a 2 million dollar annual salary.

Then healthcare for children is something we can completely agree on. No matter what the case a child should never be turned down for healthcare, that's not a partisan stand Republicans and Democrats should be able to agree on this. I personally feel if our current system of SSI (those who can't physically or mentally work) was enforced better we would be in better position to provide healthcare to more people. But people who can work abuse the system and it drains the goverment, that is a whole different debate though.

[More Cowbell]

Absolutely! Here is an example I know someone who had a child on a Govt Medical card. When the childs father got a job, the medical card got cancelled. With less than 3 months on the job he got laid-off. So that left them with no health coverage for their child during the period he was out of work. 8 million children in the U.S. have no health insurance or coverage. Some hospitals will refuse treatment due to the lack of insurance and the liability problem.

There are a lot of problems with the system. On one hand, you have families like the one you mentioned who need help and can't get it. Then you have people that come from families with tons of money and never need to work a day in their life. Yet, because they show no actual income, their children get free medical care, all while the family drives to the doctor's office in a brand-new Mercedes. Take those people off the rolls, and you have more money to help people who actually do need it.

[thecavemaster]

There are a lot of problems with the system. On one hand, you have families like the one you mentioned who need help and can't get it. Then you have people that come from families with tons of money and never need to work a day in their life. Yet, because they show no actual income, their children get free medical care, all while the family drives to the doctor's office in a brand-new Mercedes. Take those people off the rolls, and you have more money to help people who actually do need it.

Agreed...but it would seem to me that the number of children
who are without medicare as a result of a flawed system is
MUCH greater than "show no income" rich kids who get free
medical care.

[More Cowbell]

Agreed...but it would seem to me that the number of children
who are without medicare as a result of a flawed system is
MUCH greater than "show no income" rich kids who get free
medical care.

You're probably right about the numbers, but my point was that the whole sysytem needs fixed. Some kids should be taken off Medicaid, while many more kids from 'the working poor' need to be added on.

It's really not the kids from extremely poor families that are being left out, they will always qualify for government assistance. It's the people who work very hard for modest wages who are the ones feeling the pinch. The government says they make too much money to qualify, yet after paying for the family's essentials they do not have very much money, certainly not enough to pay for the care of a very sick child.

Bottom line, no sick child should ever be denied medical care.

[thecavemaster]

You're probably right about the numbers, but my point was that the whole sysytem needs fixed. Some kids should be taken off Medicaid, while many more kids from 'the working poor' need to be added on.

It's really not the kids from extremely poor families that are being left out, they will always qualify for government assistance. It's the people who work very hard for modest wages who are the ones feeling the pinch. The government says they make too much money to qualify, yet after paying for the family's essentials they do not have very much money, certainly not enough to pay for the care of a very sick child.

Bottom line, no sick child should ever be denied medical care.

Absolutely agreed... the "working poor" don't get much slack
from the government.

[More Cowbell]

Absolutely agreed... the "working poor" don't get much slack
from the government.

There would be more money available to help the working poor if we got all the people off government assistance that don't need to be on it. It's ridiculous how many lazy slobs are on disability that are perfectly able to work but won't. I have all the respect in the world for someone who goes out every day and works hard, and I feel like the government needs to help the working poor much more then they currently do. But I have zero respect for someone who draws a check (partially funded by my taxes) simply by sitting at home and watching Springer all day.

Side note, I know someone who works for a bank who tells me that there are some people who come in each month with enough government checks to walk back out with over $4000.

[Fenix]

There would be more money available to help the working poor if we got all the people off government assistance that don't need to be on it. It's ridiculous how many lazy slobs are on disability that are perfectly able to work but won't. I have all the respect in the world for someone who goes out every day and works hard, and I feel like the government needs to help the working poor much more then they currently do. But I have zero respect for someone who draws a check (partially funded by my taxes) simply by sitting at home and watching Springer all day.

Side note, I know someone who works for a bank who tells me that there are some people who come in each month with enough government checks to walk back out with over $4000.

I honestly don't think I could agree more. It makes me sick to see people who can work sit at home and draw a check. That ruins the system for those who actually need it.

[DevilsWin]

I honestly don't think I could agree more. It makes me sick to see people who can work sit at home and draw a check. That ruins the system for those who actually need it.

Me Too! I totally agree!

[thecavemaster]

Here is a man or woman who sees it as their
"task" in life to be "on the draw." My life experience
suggests that these folks lead fairly unfulfilling lives,
albeit fairly stress free ones. And, a lot of these folks,
it seems to me, have convinced themselves that they are
disabled in some way, whether or not medical science would
agree or not. Question: would you want to trade places
with these people, because you seem to have a disdain for
them that has to have envy in there somewhere. I agree
that those with able bodies and minds should find something
for their hands to do that financially suports them; however,
I've never talked to anyone who says and believes, "Hell,
I can work just fine, but I'm too lazy to do it." Instead,
they learn to believe in their own disability, whether or
not it exists.

[More Cowbell]

Here is a man or woman who sees it as their
"task" in life to be "on the draw." My life experience
suggests that these folks lead fairly unfulfilling lives,
albeit fairly stress free ones. And, a lot of these folks,
it seems to me, have convinced themselves that they are
disabled in some way, whether or not medical science would
agree or not. Question: would you want to trade places
with these people, because you seem to have a disdain for
them that has to have envy in there somewhere. I agree
that those with able bodies and minds should find something
for their hands to do that financially suports them; however,
I've never talked to anyone who says and believes, "Hell,
I can work just fine, but I'm too lazy to do it." Instead,
they learn to believe in their own disability, whether or
not it exists.

Look, I don't know if you are an actual psychologist or just fancy yourself one, but you are way off if you think I am envious of these people. On the contrary, I would never want to end up like that. I have a good job and work hard for what I earn, and at least I can go to bed at night knowing that I'm not going through life mooching off others.

What burns me up is that these people are getting a cut of my money that I earn, even though they've done nothing more to earn it than lie on the couch all day. I want my taxes to go to people who may need some help but still work hard anyway.

[Fenix]

Here is a man or woman who sees it as their
"task" in life to be "on the draw." My life experience
suggests that these folks lead fairly unfulfilling lives,
albeit fairly stress free ones. And, a lot of these folks,
it seems to me, have convinced themselves that they are
disabled in some way, whether or not medical science would
agree or not. Question: would you want to trade places
with these people, because you seem to have a disdain for
them that has to have envy in there somewhere. I agree
that those with able bodies and minds should find something
for their hands to do that financially suports them; however,
I've never talked to anyone who says and believes, "Hell,
I can work just fine, but I'm too lazy to do it." Instead,
they learn to believe in their own disability, whether or
not it exists.

I think you're way off on this one. I'm not sure where you live, but where I live people draw checks so they can go out to hunt, fish, or ride fourwheelers. If you can do these things, you know you can work as well.

[Beef]

Me Too! I totally agree!

I don't think you can find many that don't agree with this. If only the government would enforce it better!

[thecavemaster]

I think you're way off on this one. I'm not sure where you live, but where I live people draw checks so they can go out to hunt, fish, or ride fourwheelers. If you can do these things, you know you can work as well.

So, Fenix, you are saying that you know people PERSONALLY
who will tell you, "Hell, I ain't disabled, but I fooled
the government, so now I fish and hunt and four wheel the
livelong day." Again, I believe deeply that those
with able minds and bodies should work in order to support
themselves. In my experience, a man might draw disability
for himself and his children, his wife might draw too, then
add in food stamps. All in all, that household might bring
in close to $3,000 tax free, plus have good medical care.
If that man and woman are clearly not disabled by any stretch
of the imagination, it is very frustrating, aggravating,
and anger producing. However, I also know people who are
disabled, meaning they have some problem (mental or
physical that prevents them from keeping "substantial
employment"). These people are often still able to hunt
and fish some, maybe even ride a four wheeler. BUT, I
know them to be disabled. We need to slice this bread
a little thinner so as to not lump all the coal in one
bucket.

[More Cowbell]

I agree with Fenix on this one. It is wrong of that person drawing disability to be out riding a four-wheeler, when that little toy was bought and paid for with our tax money. If they've got enough money coming in to afford to buy new four-wheelers, fancy cars, and expensive jewelry, then they're getting too much government assistance. We need to take some of it back, and give it to the people who really need it, i.e., the working poor.

[Fenix]

So, Fenix, you are saying that you know people PERSONALLY
who will tell you, "Hell, I ain't disabled, but I fooled
the government, so now I fish and hunt and four wheel the
livelong day." Again, I believe deeply that those
with able minds and bodies should work in order to support
themselves. In my experience, a man might draw disability
for himself and his children, his wife might draw too, then
add in food stamps. All in all, that household might bring
in close to $3,000 tax free, plus have good medical care.
If that man and woman are clearly not disabled by any stretch
of the imagination, it is very frustrating, aggravating,
and anger producing. However, I also know people who are
disabled, meaning they have some problem (mental or
physical that prevents them from keeping "substantial
employment"). These people are often still able to hunt
and fish some, maybe even ride a four wheeler. BUT, I
know them to be disabled. We need to slice this bread
a little thinner so as to not lump all the coal in one
bucket.

Yes, I can honestly say I do. I know people that dropped out of highschool, because their parents told them they could just draw a check knowing nothing was wrong with them. I live in Perry County, this is a common thing here.

[Beef]

Yes, I can honestly say I do. I know people that dropped out of highschool, because their parents told them they could just draw a check knowing nothing was wrong with them. I live in Perry County, this is a common thing here.

And this is the bull shit that should not be going on in America today. We have plenty of ways to track people to make sure that things like this don't happen. All I want to know is how the government can't notice that people have been on the draw for years when I do believe there is a limit to how long you can be on it -- or with unemployment there is -- but are we just talking about disability payments? Then how do these people fool the government into paying them when they can easily work? It should require a doctor to place someone in this care, and if it is found out that doctors are placing people in there for no reason, then harsh punishment should be placed. I dunno, maybe 50,000-100,000 fine or even losing the ability to practice.

This is one of the things that really makes me mad (along with Illegal Immigration). If you can work, get off your but and get out there to do it. There is no chance that this can be divided between parties because everyone that works pays taxes to fund these lazy losers. And to know that I am from an area that has probably one of the highest amount of people per capita abusing the system like this makes me embarrassed. Hard working people should not have to pay for those to sit around watch TV, hunt, fish, 4-wheel, drink, and enjoy their Drug use. I would like to see what percent of disability checks on eastern KY go towards recreational drug use.

Yeah, I just went on a rant but this stuff pisses me off! :mad:

[thecavemaster]

Here's an idea based on Michael Moore's use of
satire and irony to poke fun at the system, at
the way things are: if you take of your time
and energy and effort and money and feed the
poor, you are called a "saint." If you begin
to question the reasons as to why there are
poor, you are called a communist. I've heard
the old rube about giving a man a fish as opposed
to teaching him to fish...but isn't it time we
all began to think about who exactly it is that
owns the pond and why exactly he gets to make
about 112 times more than the guy on the assembly
line?

[More Cowbell]

Here's an idea based on Michael Moore's use of
satire and irony to poke fun at the system, at
the way things are: if you take of your time
and energy and effort and money and feed the
poor, you are called a "saint." If you begin
to question the reasons as to why there are
poor, you are called a communist. I've heard
the old rube about giving a man a fish as opposed
to teaching him to fish...but isn't it time we
all began to think about who exactly it is that
owns the pond and why exactly he gets to make
about 112 times more than the guy on the assembly
line?

You'll get no argument from me in saying that the CEO's of big corporations make way too much money. The salaries and bonuses some of these guys get is ridiculous.

But to relate your pond analogy to the most recent discussion: Why does the guy who is too lazy to fish at all get just as much money to live on as the guys who are out at the pond every day, working hard for their earnings?

[thecavemaster]

You'll get no argument from me in saying that the CEO's of big corporations make way too much money. The salaries and bonuses some of these guys get is ridiculous.

But to relate your pond analogy to the most recent discussion: Why does the guy who is too lazy to fish at all get just as much money to live on as the guys who are out at the pond every day, working hard for their earnings?

I think that somewhere in the New Testament, Paul makes
the statement that those won't work thought they are
capable of working should not be fed...I guess the thought
is that hunger is a pretty strong motivation to work. My
only point is this: if all my anger and frustration and
the energy created by those is directed at the "lazy
cheaters," the people who own the pond and exploit all
who fish never have to answer for their greed.

[More Cowbell]

I think that somewhere in the New Testament, Paul makes
the statement that those won't work thought they are
capable of working should not be fed...I guess the thought
is that hunger is a pretty strong motivation to work. My
only point is this: if all my anger and frustration and
the energy created by those is directed at the "lazy
cheaters," the people who own the pond and exploit all
who fish never have to answer for their greed.

Read my last post, I was actually agreeing with you. The CEO's of these corporations are getting sickeningly wealthy on the hard-working backs of their everyday employees, and there is absolutely no reason for those guys to make as much as they do. But what can you do about it? Ask them to take a pay cut? Somehow, I'm pretty sure you and I both know what the answer to that request would be.

In the end, I'm not sure how you change a system in which these CEO's get big salaries and perks, since if the salary is voted for them by stockholders it is perfectly legal. On the other hand, people drawing disability who are fully able to work are committing a crime, it's called fraud. They can and should be held accountable.