[Old School]

Something has to done about this guy, before we all pay for his stupidity!!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070922/ap_o...hmc3Ss0NUE

[Fenix]

If we do something all people are going to do is complain about it.

[Old School]

If we do something all people are going to do is complain about it.

But what will happen if the U.S. or someone else doesn't do anything, this guy will eventually will cause trouble especially if he has WMD.

[thecavemaster]

My friend (an engineer who barely escaped Iran in the revolution that brougth Ayatollah Khomeni to power in the mid 70's) speaks five languages, one of which is Persian. He tells me that Ahminijad (?) did not call for the annihilation of Israel...but rather said that as a result of its unjust treatment of the Palestinians, Israel would be removed from the pages of history (as a result of its own wickedness). Jesus of Nazareth said the same thing shortly before his death ("not one stone will be left on another")... Anyone care to venture a guess on the only nation to actually use a nuclear weapon on other human beings? Anyone care to venture a guess on how Sadaam Hussein came to have chemical weapons in the first place? The Iranian president is a Ph.D...he's not some idiot risen out of the sand. I don't know what all of his policies and beliefs are, but I know a propaganda smear job when I see one. Why is it so necessary for Americans to believe that this nation can't be anything but "all things nice" when the facts of history suggest otherwise...not that we are "all things evil" but that we have a checkered history as well.

[Fenix]

But what will happen if the U.S. or someone else doesn't do anything, this guy will eventually will cause trouble especially if he has WMD.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm just saying all people do is complain about our goverment.

[thecavemaster]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm just saying all people do is complain about our goverment.

Fenix: Do you agree that there is a difference between complaining for complaining's sake and legitimate dissent
based on disagreements with policy?

[Old School]

My friend (an engineer who barely escaped Iran in the revolution that brougth Ayatollah Khomeni to power in the mid 70's) speaks five languages, one of which is Persian. He tells me that Ahminijad (?) did not call for the annihilation of Israel...but rather said that as a result of its unjust treatment of the Palestinians, Israel would be removed from the pages of history (as a result of its own wickedness). Jesus of Nazareth said the same thing shortly before his death ("not one stone will be left on another")... Anyone care to venture a guess on the only nation to actually use a nuclear weapon on other human beings? Anyone care to venture a guess on how Sadaam Hussein came to have chemical weapons in the first place? The Iranian president is a Ph.D...he's not some idiot risen out of the sand. I don't know what all of his policies and beliefs are, but I know a propaganda smear job when I see one. Why is it so necessary for Americans to believe that this nation can't be anything but "all things nice" when the facts of history suggest otherwise...not that we are "all things evil" but that we have a checkered history as well.

What makes you think that Amadinejad is so innocent of any wrong doing?
Why do you think America is conducting a propaganda war against him?

I watched an interview several month's ago, where several former hostages from the 1979 Iran hostage crisis have identified Amadinejad as one of the key individuals holding them inside the Embassey for 444 days.

You mentioned that he has a Ph.D....yes he does in Traffic and Transportation Planning, you also mentioned that he is "not some idiot risen out of the sand", but neither was Adolf Hilter, Erwim Rommel or Isoroku Yamamoto, but we came very close to paying for their stupidity during WWII.

[Old School]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm just saying all people do is complain about our goverment.

:Thumbs:

[Fenix]

Fenix: Do you agree that there is a difference between complaining for complaining's sake and legitimate dissent
based on disagreements with policy?

I certainly do, but I feel that war is necessary in some instances. Allowing a terroristic nation to gain WMD's is IMO once of those instances. I understand your dislike for Bush, he has lied and said idiotic thing. However, I'm glad he was our President during this time because I personally feel this war had to happen, and I do respect your opinion to be against the war.

[thecavemaster]

I certainly do, but I feel that war is necessary in some instances. Allowing a terroristic nation to gain WMD's is IMO once of those instances. I understand your dislike for Bush, he has lied and said idiotic thing. However, I'm glad he was our President during this time because I personally feel this war had to happen, and I do respect your opinion to be against the war.

I do not dislike Bush, as I do not know him personally. I do dislike his overall political philosophy, and particularly dislike his approach to foreign policy. I feel like a swift and sustained movement against Al Quada was reasonable after 9/11, but the regime in Baghdad at that time had a deep dislike of Osama Bin Laden. I think it was a strategic error and a mistaken policy decision.

[thecavemaster]

What makes you think that Amadinejad is so innocent of any wrong doing?
Why do you think America is conducting a propaganda war against him?

I watched an interview several month's ago, where several former hostages from the 1979 Iran hostage crisis have identified Amadinejad as one of the key individuals holding them inside the Embassey for 444 days.

You mentioned that he has a Ph.D....yes he does in Traffic and Transportation Planning, you also mentioned that he is "not some idiot risen out of the sand", but neither was Adolf Hilter, Erwim Rommel or Isoroku Yamamoto, but we came very close to paying for their stupidity during WWII.

Amadinejad is a figure head in Iran; he actually holds no policy making power, no status to change or rewrite laws. Also, to get a PH.D, one doesn't simply take classes in one's area of expertise. While I don't support in any way the use of violence to combat violence, the history of our CIA's involvement in Iran to "actively pursue the coming to power of the Shah" (who was quite ruthless and greedy), helped plant the seeds that came to fruition in the Khomeni revolution. I don't think Amadinejad is a responsible spokesman; I also think we equate him with dictators and emperors who had actual power, thereby granting him a status that he doesn't possess. He isn't that popular with the majority younger population in Iran, and probably will fade into history unless we make policy decisions that make a martar/hero out of him.

[ronald_reagan]

Jesus of Nazareth said the same thing shortly before his death ("not one stone will be left on another")...

And your point would be? :confused:

I think you're about 2000 years late for the party.

That has already happened. He was pointing to the events of 70 AD and the destruction of the temple.

[thecavemaster]

And your point would be? :confused:

I think you're about 2000 years late for the party.

That has already happened. He was pointing to the events of 70 AD and the destruction of the temple.

Jesus, a religious figure head, once "prophesied" the destruction of a nation (Israel) as due justice for its "sins." Analogy doesn't mean verse for verse. Religious leaders are always promising the destruction of this or that or the other. That's one of the reasons why religion poisons everything.

[ronald_reagan]

Jesus, a religious figure head, once "prophesied" the destruction of a nation (Israel) as due justice for its "sins." Analogy doesn't mean verse for verse. Religious leaders are always promising the destruction of this or that or the other. That's one of the reasons why religion poisons everything.

Can you show me this in scripture?

All i've ever read is from Matt 24, and Mark 13, where he predicts the destruction of the temple. He never makes mention of sinful causes, or justice being served.

I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

You may however be referring to the hundreds of judgements handed down in the old testament because of Zion's sinful nature.

[vundy33]

Let Amadinjehad rip whoever he wants...He'll never do anything and if he does it would be a big mistake IMO.

[thecavemaster]

Can you show me this in scripture?

All i've ever read is from Matt 24, and Mark 13, where he predicts the destruction of the temple. He never makes mention of sinful causes, or justice being served.

I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

You may however be referring to the hundreds of judgements handed down in the old testament because of Zion's sinful nature.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem...if you had only recognized...you who stone the prophets...not one stone will be left on another...." If one believes the story, Jesus said this on his approach to the Holy City the last time.

[ronald_reagan]

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem...if you had only recognized...you who stone the prophets...not one stone will be left on another...." If one believes the story, Jesus said this on his approach to the Holy City the last time.

I think you're taking it out of context, but at least I know where you're coming from now. The nation is predicted to be destroyed, and he's quoting alot from the old testament here. When asked in chapter 24 (where he mentions the no stone thing), he is asked about the temple.

So whether you believe he said it or not, the temple was destroyed by Romans in 70 AD.

Thanks for the info though.

[LOOKAYANNER]

I often wonder how these nut cases, like Iran, North Korea, and Venzuela's presidents, can get themselves in such a powerful position. The answer is that they find a way, just like Hitler, Stalin, and others before them did. You have to also wonder how masses of people can be so ignorant and misguided to allow this to happen. I mean, there are millions of intelligent people in all these countries. But it still happens.

North Korea recently executed, by firing squad, a factory owner because he made 11 phone calls outside the country. He was executed before 150,000 people in a stadium and also carried on live TV. Six people were trampled to death as they left the stadium. UNREAL!

[ronald_reagan]

I often wonder how these nut cases, like Iran, North Korea, and Venzuela's presidents, can get themselves in such a powerful position. The answer is that they find a way, just like Hitler, Stalin, and others before them did. You have to also wonder how masses of people can be so ignorant and misguided to allow this to happen. I mean, there are millions of intelligent people in all these countries. But it still happens.

North Korea recently executed, by firing squad, a factory owner because he made 11 phone calls outside the country. He was executed before 150,000 people in a stadium and also carried on live TV. Six people were trampled to death as they left the stadium. UNREAL!

I actually saw a documentary recently about North Korea. From birth, the children are taught to basically worship the 'great one'. Kim Jong-Il. A woman who had been blinded from birth with a treatable disease, when given the chance for surgery to see for the first time... she was asked, what she wanted to see ------> her reply was , the great one. First thing. These people are just insane and need to be freed of such stupidity. The korean war was a failure, and why we ever allowed only a cease fire and not a reunification of the two countries is beyond me. North Korea isn't a threat to our country directly, but their defiance is. Other countries can look towards their example/s and find inspiration and motivation. Iran specifically. We didn't stop N Korea from developing a nuke... and if current thought prevails, we Iran won't be stopped either.

Fight the fights worth winning. And don't back down from the fights we're afraid to lose.

[thecavemaster]

I think you're taking it out of context, but at least I know where you're coming from now. The nation is predicted to be destroyed, and he's quoting alot from the old testament here. When asked in chapter 24 (where he mentions the no stone thing), he is asked about the temple.

So whether you believe he said it or not, the temple was destroyed by Romans in 70 AD.

Thanks for the info though.

Again, if one believes the story, Jesus is apparently angry that the prevailing Jewish religious authorities and polity (represented by "Jerusalem") have rejected his claim as Messiah. The punishment for this rejection is a prophesied destruction of the Temple, along with Jerusalem. So, "Israel" is being punished for its rejection of the "Messiah." How is that out of context?

[ronald_reagan]

Again, if one believes the story, Jesus is apparently angry that the prevailing Jewish religious authorities and polity (represented by "Jerusalem") have rejected his claim as Messiah. The punishment for this rejection is a prophesied destruction of the Temple, along with Jerusalem. So, "Israel" is being punished for its rejection of the "Messiah." How is that out of context?

I thought you said they were being punished for sinful behavior. Its ok, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. And from your repeated "if you believe the story", is any indicator, then its not something you'd want to argue about anyways.

But the fact is, if we're talkin about rejection of the Messiah, thats not explicitiy what is happening here. Jesus still hasn't been questioned about who he is up to this point, and when he's asked at his trial in Matt 26, he doesn't answer directly, he merely says in plain english, "if you say so." Matt 23 isn't about rejection of Jesus Christ. Its rejection of their own views. Matt 24 is about the destruction of the temple, and not the nation of Israel as you previously said.

Israel was destined to be cursed due to their rejection of Christ, but not a physical destruction. It was a lifting of Gods hand and can be argued, breaking the covenant with the Jewish race. Today Israel is not "gods land" and Jews are NOT his 'chosen people'. Today Isreal is a land that was given to some Jews by way of American and British powers.

What Israel is today, is what is called the 'new israel'. The new Israel is actually the kingdom of God.. which is what? The spiritual kingdom of God, the mystical body of Christ.. The Church itself.

But anyways, nice debate.

[thecavemaster]

It was a prophetic moment in a fantastical story...with the Prophet seeing into what would be, not what had yet been...

[ronald_reagan]

It was a prophetic moment in a fantastical story...with the Prophet seeing into what would be, not what had yet been...

I guess? :confused: