[thecavemaster]

This is a ministry site. Basic principle of internet research: always consider the source for motives.

[DevilsWin]

It also says that Clinton was a passionate man who cared about his country and that George Bush served in honorably in the ANG.

The point is, he wrote some letters. James Madison, hated him, called him an infedel... and wrote the CONSTITUTION. Read the Federalist papers and this debate will be over. Thats all you have to do to have some peace of mind. Read Madison's biography. In fact, read the religious views of ALL of the fathers. Go here.

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

The Federalist papers completely destroyed the original dream that Jeffeson had for this new nation. James Madison was his biggest rival.

[thecavemaster]

Roger Williams, founder of Rhode Island in 1636, who left "Puritanica" because of religious intolerance, who successfully vindicated the right of private judgment in matters of conscience, and effected a moral and political revolution in all governments of the civilized world. The role Williams played in the bridge from Puritanical thought to Western democratic thought is overlooked. He was a champion of liberty.

[ronald_reagan]

The Federalist papers completely destroyed the original dream that Jeffeson had for this new nation. James Madison was his biggest rival.

Exactly. Thats my point. As author of the constitution and federalist papers.. It would seem to me that Madison would have a better grasp on it all. Than some guy who writes a letter or two from a 45 day journey away.

[thecavemaster]

It was more than a letter or two, which is typical of your style, misstate, misquote, twist, turn, juke, jive. You are a disco debater.

[ronald_reagan]

Roger Williams, founder of Rhode Island in 1636, who left "Puritanica" because of religious intolerance, who successfully vindicated the right of private judgment in matters of conscience, and effected a moral and political revolution in all governments of the civilized world. The role Williams played in the bridge from Puritanical thought to Western democratic thought is overlooked. He was a champion of liberty.

There's no doubt thats the truth. I have no quarrell.

You made a blanket statement that the founders were diests. This is factually inaccurate, and very misleading. That was my point, and made successfully so. History can judge Jefferson as one, as I'm sure he was. Franklin as well. And I'm sure there were others. But the whole of those founders were Christians, prayed publically as christians, wrote as christians, attended christian serves as christians, made speeches as christians...

[ronald_reagan]

It was more than a letter or two, which is typical of your style, misstate, misquote, twist, turn, juke, jive. You are a disco debater.

How many was it?

[thecavemaster]

6, 332, 234........ The site doesn't say how many, it says correspondence back and forth over the course of months.. I'll go back and see if I can find how many; however, is your request about pettiness or exactitude? We both know it was more than a couple of letters, as letter writing was frequent, fervent, and animated back in the day... and letters were long, long, long.

[ronald_reagan]

6, 332, 234........ The site doesn't say how many, it says correspondence back and forth over the course of months.. I'll go back and see if I can find how many; however, is your request about pettiness or exactitude? We both know it was more than a couple of letters, as letter writing was frequent, fervent, and animated back in the day... and letters were long, long, long.

I can go with the fact that letters were long long long. I agree totally, I've read some of them... (can't really understand them unless their in modern english though lol)

But as you said, it was over the course of months... Let me ask you this? And you may know better than I do, but I was under the impression that it took as long as 30 days to cross the Atlantic by boat during that time? So if, and I stress IF, it did take that long. Say they wrote back and forth for 4 months. Thats 120 days. And a max of 2 trips back and forth. You see my point there? But like I said, maybe you know how long it took to travel it,and it may have been WAY shorter for all I know.

I just don't see it likely that he wrote more than 2-3 letters, considering the time to write it, transport, and wait on a ship that would surely bring it back and to whom it was addressed.

[thecavemaster]

I would guess that is possible. But over the course of a decade (1776-1787), wouldn't you think that MANY discussions took place, many debates... and human beings being human beings, it has always resonated with me that Madison did not like Jefferson at least in large part because Jefferson's intellect, diction, eloquence grated on the ego of Madison.

[thecavemaster]

By the way, RR, this is intersting stuff... stuff which I wish more kids these days were interested in, as (and I may be mistaken) it seems that basic civics understanding is very, very low. What's your take on that?

[ronald_reagan]

I would guess that is possible. But over the course of a decade (1776-1787), wouldn't you think that MANY discussions took place, many debates... and human beings being human beings, it has always resonated with me that Madison did not like Jefferson at least in large part because Jefferson's intellect, diction, eloquence grated on the ego of Madison.

I think they both were very intelligent men, and from reading writings of them both, their diction and elquence are far superior to that of even the 'great communicator'. These men could talk like true gentlemen, with prose and poise. But I don't think their disagreements are found on Christianity, or even a true hate for each other... but moreso in their ideas for federalism.

And I agree, this is such an interesting topic to talk about. And no matter what side you come down on, we can both agree had it not been for these men... and all others who risked death at the hands of the King and British 'empire'.... we'd not ever have this chance to disagree. Instead, we'd both be kissing the feet of the Queen right now. :eek:

[thecavemaster]

From the looks of her, I bet her feet smell like liver and onions...

[ronald_reagan]

By the way, RR, this is intersting stuff... stuff which I wish more kids these days were interested in, as (and I may be mistaken) it seems that basic civics understanding is very, very low. What's your take on that?

Its seem to me that you're right, not only on that.. but all important things, but especially civics. I quoted a study earlier that shows how, a huge majority of high school students polled thought that Sodom and Gomorrah were MARRIED. (I think you agree with me that these are 'myths'... I don't take the Old Testament literally at all..), when in fact they were two supposed cities.

More kids can tell you Britney Spear menstrual cycle, than can tell you what the bill of rights are. (THEIR RIGHTS)

Its amazing. Which is why, and I know its another thread topic, I believe the public education system has failed miserably.

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

Its seem to me that you're right, not only on that.. but all important things, but especially civics. I quoted a study earlier that shows how, a huge majority of high school students polled thought that Sodom and Gomorrah were MARRIED. (I think you agree with me that these are 'myths'... I don't take the Old Testament literally at all..), when in fact they were two supposed cities.

More kids can tell you Britney Spear menstrual cycle, than can tell you what the bill of rights are. (THEIR RIGHTS)

Its amazing. Which is why, and I know its another thread topic, I believe the public education system has failed miserably.

I agree totaly. Ill give you a good story about this very thing.

A freind of mine who lives in Ohio told me he was going through some his wifes school books. She graduated in the late 90s and hes about 10 years older than her. As he started thumbing through her history book he told me he couldnt believe his eyes. Abraham Lincoln and George Washington got 1 page apiece while The Beatles got a whole chapter. The framing of the constution got about five pages while an entire section of the book was devoted to the 60's.
So I guess the "educators" in this country found that it was more important to find out what John and Paul were thinking (or smoking) when they wrote "Love me do" than what Lincoln was thinking when he wrote the Gettysburg address. I guess they thought that "Taxation without representation" was less catchy than "Make love, Not War". No, this is some baby boomers trying to make their accomplishements more important than that of our founding fathers.

[ronald_reagan]

No, this is some baby boomers trying to make their accomplishements more important than that of our founding fathers.

I never really thought of it that way. Thats a nice idea though!

The progressive moment IMO is the most destructive movement in the history of the entire world. I'm what you refer to as a Classical Liberal. Laissez-Faire. Today's liberals are socialistic, progressives that only serve one purpose... their own. I believe in serving a higher power, and bettering myself... They preach from the church of godless alters, "accept all, as they are...". In the words of Ronald Reagan when asked if Nixon should resign... he simply replied... "H3LL NO!"

Let freedom ring!! (but make sure we realize those who created this for us, never wanted what we have today....)

[Chuck Taylor]

Here are some facts:

-Every morning, the House of Reps open with Prayer.
-Every morning, The Senate Chamber opens with prayer.
-Both the Senate and House have Chaplains for to lead prayer, and to help spiritually guide its members.
-The Supreme Court opens with prayer each morning.
-Behind the Supreme Court bench, we see God handing down the 10 commandments, carved in the wall. (along with other religious figures).
-John Adams said, "This government is for only a religious people, and for all others would be inadequate".
-Our Motto is "In God we trust"
-Our pledge includes "one nation under God"
-Our military has several hundreds, if not thousands of chaplains.
-Christmas is a national holiday.


Yet, our kids can't have organized prayer at school.
Religious groups are typically blocked from using government buildings.
Crosses are banned from government land (sometimes).
If I go to school to become a preacher, the government won't pay for it.

What has this world came to? As Ronald Reagan once said, "A nation no longer under God.. is a nation, gone UNDER". Why do we do this?

I don't want a "church of England". or a western Vatican City. But religious freedom is under attack and these attacks must be dealt with.

Opinions?

Prayers should not be in schools.

[ronald_reagan]

Prayers should not be in schools.

lol

in any circumstance?

but its ok for the rest of government to allow it, but it deny to the weakest among us?

but then again, I guess congressmen and women need prayer more than our school children, if you really think about it.

[thecavemaster]

O.K. Let us allow free expression of religion in schools. However, let us open that to Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Branch Davidianism, Jim Jones-ism, bring it all in, for if one has an open door, all must have an open door, lest we be unconstitutional... or does that document (freedom of conscience...freedom not to pray or be forced to pray) even matter anymore?

[ronald_reagan]

O.K. Let us allow free expression of religion in schools. However, let us open that to Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Branch Davidianism, Jim Jones-ism, bring it all in, for if one has an open door, all must have an open door, lest we be unconstitutional... or does that document (freedom of conscience...freedom not to pray or be forced to pray) even matter anymore?

It already is open to the other religions. Brand Dadividians where home schooled, Jim Jones move to S/A. lol

But its already open, and those other 'religions' are catered to, and dealt with properly. Christianity is the religion under attack.

[thecavemaster]

It already is open to the other religions. Brand Dadividians where home schooled, Jim Jones move to S/A. lol

But its already open, and those other 'religions' are catered to, and dealt with properly. Christianity is the religion under attack.

Was it your estimation that the point was whether or not Davidians were/are homeschooled? Do you really think that in KY, AL, MS, GA that Buddhism and Islam (as examples) are catered to? I have been to a lot of ball games, assemblies, chorus concerts etc. etc. and have never seen Christianity "under attack." Again, build a straw man then destroy it... stick in a thumb, pull out a plum and say "what a good boy am I"....

[ronald_reagan]

Was it your estimation that the point was whether or not Davidians were/are homeschooled? Do you really think that in KY, AL, MS, GA that Buddhism and Islam (as examples) are catered to? I have been to a lot of ball games, assemblies, chorus concerts etc. etc. and have never seen Christianity "under attack." Again, build a straw man then destroy it... stick in a thumb, pull out a plum and say "what a good boy am I"....

How many times in the recent years have we saw kids barred from mentioning Jesus Christ or invoking his name at the end of prayer during graduation? Schools ban Christmas parties, then 'celebrate' Islamic holidays as 'cultural learning'.

I just ask you simply. The premise of this entire piece isn't just prayer in the school. The question I'm asking, and everyone seems to be dodging... WHY is it ok for Congress to open with prayer? The supreme court to do the same? Use OUR tax money to pay for preachers in the military and in the halls of Congress? Why is that ok?? Why is it allowed? And what is their manic obession with making sure our kids don't have the very same right??

Anyone care to guess what the first official act of Congress was? Prayer.

Anyone remember FDR's prayer that was broadcast world wide?

Anyone remember reading about G. Washington's public prayers during his speeches?


Its troubling to me that the very people who say that organized, official sponsored prayer... opened that VERY session with organized, official sponsored prayer... and have always, before and after the decision was made.

The decision ONLY affected children... And knowing the bible as you do, Jesus tells us to not keep the kids from him. And to be as children in purity.

I don't want a teacher to lead my child in prayer or mandate that my child pray. Its just that I have a problem when stupid decisions are made by justices, such as not allowing prayer by a student during school sponsored activities. Its insane. Where in the 1st amendment do we find such reasoning.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble"

How can it be declared unconstitutional for someone to pray at a graduation?

What law did congress make respecting an establishment of religion?

This amendment applies to CONGRESS interfering with our life and our freedom of religion. This amendment wasn't meant to keep us FROM religion. The founders didn't want a church of England dictating our Congressional and Executive actions.... thus they put in the 1st amendment to fix that.

The funny thing is cavemaster, you asked if Islam would be catered to. You can bet the farm on it. If an islamic student was required to pray 5 times a day, 2-3 of which during the school day.. he would ABSOLUTELY be given the opportunity, and probably given a taxpayer funded prayer rug and special room with directional arrows pointing to Mecca.

There's no cause whatsoever for what has happened. Its a tragedy and a national disaster. The ruling was in 1962, and since then the morals of our kids and this nation have been flushed down the toilet.. along with the very God this nation was founded upon, under, and with.

[thecavemaster]

But, if the Moslem student asked that ALL students join him/her in placing the mat eastward and praying? Here is my guess: allowances would be made for the student to find a private place to practive the TRADITIONAL observance of his/her religion. Ever met a Christian who whips out a towel, orients toward Jerusalem and prays five times a day? Different tradition. The separation of church and state is important because there were Dark Ages, because there were Salem Witch Trials, because the Puritans drove Roger Williams into the wilderness. You don't think stuff like that could happen again, RR? Many of the bullets you cite are just like five times a day prayer, except they are part of the "grand tradition" of these institutions. It is somewhat at odds, as you say. However, the history of what happens when the State and the Church marry in power and repression is enough to go a little overboard toward freedom of conscience.

[ronald_reagan]

But, if the Moslem student asked that ALL students join him/her in placing the mat eastward and praying? Here is my guess: allowances would be made for the student to find a private place to practive the TRADITIONAL observance of his/her religion. Ever met a Christian who whips out a towel, orients toward Jerusalem and prays five times a day? Different tradition. The separation of church and state is important because there were Dark Ages, because there were Salem Witch Trials, because the Puritans drove Roger Williams into the wilderness. You don't think stuff like that could happen again, RR? Many of the bullets you cite are just like five times a day prayer, except they are part of the "grand tradition" of these institutions. It is somewhat at odds, as you say. However, the history of what happens when the State and the Church marry in power and repression is enough to go a little overboard toward freedom of conscience.

You missed the entire post. About 2 lines of if dealt with islamic students. And you once again failed to address the idea expressed and the questions ask. This is habitual on your behalf, and understandably so when there is no defense.

What law did congress enact that was unconstitutional? Why did the very court that ruled kids couldn't publicly pray, held public prayer themselves that morning? and each morning since? The congress that won't amend the constitution to allow for public prayer for kids, opens the sessions that they refuse to pass such an amendment with prayer? Teachers can pray at school, but Congress hires their very own chaplains.. and fund preachers for the military. Yet they won't pay for college for someone wishing to become THEIR chaplain, or join their military for that reason.

As I said, this isn't really a thread about school prayer as much as it is about governmental hypocrisy. "the free exercise thereof". Well in the church that I go to, we hold public prayer. We act just as Washington, Lincoln, FDR,, and about 95% of the founders on this issue. We don't do it for man to hear, but for man to join.

You continually misrepresent my point as that of someone who wants a state church or something. I WANT seperation of church and state. I want it more so than anyone else. But to be so hypocritical... and indeed punishing for absolutely no constitutional reason, is treason against our kids, and God. I don't care if the Islamic student wants to pray in private. I welcome it. However, why would that offend me if he chose homeroom to do it in? Why would it offend me if Abu Sharik let the graduation prayer, invoking Allah and Ali? I'm proud of religious FREEDOM.. and its not freedom when you restrict it to the point that its impossible to practice it openly. The denomination that I attend is among the strictest of all with its belief that 'others are wrong'. Yet I welcome all forms of faith, and the free exercise thereof. When Congress allowed it first Hindu prayer just a few months back, I applauded it. This is a matter of right and wrong. And I know exactly what side of the issue I'm on.

Its ridiculous that you would disagree with me on this, and I'm convinced the only reason you would... is because its the opposite of what I know to be true.

The 1st amendment was meant to PROTECT us. Not limit us. Congress didn't make a law mandating prayer. And when I pray in front of others, they don't have to do the same, or even listen for that matter. And if they have a different faith or wish to pray a prayer of their own, let them.

[Sportsfan54]

I totally agree that there should be at some point a seperation of church and state. But that seperation should not take away the rights of religious freedom. The freedom our forefathers came to this country to be able practice. That's one of the main reasons for establishing this great nation in the first place. I don't mind saying that all my life i've been a strong democrat but the other night I heard one of the best speeches on this topic i've ever heard. I'm speaking of the one given by Mitt Romney titled "Faith in America". If you haven't heard it I would strongly recommend you go to the website and do so. It differs from the one given by John F. Kennedy a few decades ago and explanes the importants of FAITH in making governmental decisions. Not on a denomination basis. But on the basis of faith in God. For in making these decisions our leaders need the prayers of all denominations. Romney in his speech gained another vote......Mine!

[ronald_reagan]

I totally agree that there should be at some point a seperation of church and state. But that seperation should not take away the rights of religious freedom. The freedom our forefathers came to this country to be able practice. That's one of the main reasons for establishing this great nation in the first place. I don't mind saying that all my life i've been a strong democrat but the other night I heard one of the best speeches on this topic i've ever heard. I'm speaking of the one given by Mitt Romney titled "Faith in America". If you haven't heard it I would strongly recommend you go to the website and do so. It differs from the one given by John F. Kennedy a few decades ago and explanes the importants of FAITH in making governmental decisions. Not on a denomination basis. But on the basis of faith in God. For in making these decisions our leaders need the prayers of all denominations. Romney in his speech gained another vote......Mine!

Exactly! The founders just didn't want a church of America, nor did they want Congress to not allow a religion. So the 1st amendment was born, guaranteeing this.

The speech was good.. I'm not a big Mitt Romney fan by any means, but it was definately refreshing to hear.

[thecavemaster]

If separation of church and state is meant to protect freedom of conscience (and it is), and there are those who would be willing to enshrine a particular religion as a quasi "national religion" (See Huckabee's comment about why he got into politics), then those folks need to be limited in their ability to enact their "dreams." "Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion." It seems to me that statement is brilliant because it protects AND limits at once. RR... I don't think we can always kiss butt at the Founders, given the seam of inequality that ran through their day to day lives. Women could not vote; human beings could be chattel; property owners, the monied class were privileged...vestiges of feudalism and serfdom that contradict some of the essential principles of what we would like to think of as liberty.

[ronald_reagan]

If separation of church and state is meant to protect freedom of conscience (and it is), and there are those who would be willing to enshrine a particular religion as a quasi "national religion" (See Huckabee's comment about why he got into politics), then those folks need to be limited in their ability to enact their "dreams." "Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion." It seems to me that statement is brilliant because it protects AND limits at once. RR... I don't think we can always kiss butt at the Founders, given the seam of inequality that ran through their day to day lives. Women could not vote; human beings could be chattel; property owners, the monied class were privileged...vestiges of feudalism and serfdom that contradict some of the essential principles of what we would like to think of as liberty.

As i've stated previously... I don't understand some of the posts on here. The post quoted is a great example.

[ronald_reagan]

Its just hard to praise someone that you equally dawg as 'bad'.

If I were dictator, I'd not let a majority of voters... vote. That includes women, and men who don't OWN land.

Wow, can't wait til the posts from those who are upset. LOL LOL

[thecavemaster]

Its just hard to praise someone that you equally dawg as 'bad'.

If I were dictator, I'd not let a majority of voters... vote. That includes women, and men who don't OWN land.

Wow, can't wait til the posts from those who are upset. LOL LOL

Well, well, Pinochet... selective service when it comes to voting... how special. "You there, yes, you, let me see your bank balance. ...ah, ah, yes, yes, you go on in and vote the people who will take care of that big stash of cash....oh...yes, yes, don't worry, that's democracy Madison style, Federalism, all that rot...you know, my good, man. No, No, don't trouble with that, you just go vote then let us take care of all the rest."