[lawrencefan]

For or against and why?

[EkyLb]

Against

http://www.newsmax.com/morris/obama_heal...14994.html


Obama: Healthcare for Illegals

Monday, July 21, 2008 9:06 PM
By: Dick Morris & Eileen McGann

Democrats' single most important domestic proposal — universal health insurance — may blow up in Barack Obama's face when voters are exposed to the deadly details.

Obama has said, proudly and often, "I am going to give health insurance to 47 million Americans who are now without coverage." But are they "Americans?"

That 47 million statistic includes illegal immigrants, who virtually all lack insurance. In fact, about one in four of those lacking insurance is here illegally. And they are, by far, the group most in need of health insurance.

About 15 million of the remaining uninsured are eligible for Medicaid but haven't signed up, mainly because they haven't gotten sick. When they do, they enroll in Medicaid and we pick up the full tab for their health care relatively cheaply. (About 80 percent of each Medicaid dollar goes to nursing-home care for the elderly, only about 20 percent for the medical needs of the poor.)

The rest of the uninsured pool? Virtually all the children are eligible for the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Some aren't enrolled because the parents haven't bothered, but most are eligible. That leaves about 20 million uninsured adults who are US citizens or legal immigrants. There are far better ways to handle their needs than to turn our entire health-care system upside down.

Care for illegals is the biggest unmet medical need in our nation, and Obama's program targets it squarely. But do we really want to give them federally paid coverage equal to what US senators get, as Obama proposes?

Covering illegals adds dramatically to the cost of any program - and would encourage more folks to enter America illicitly.

Obama's plan will likely have a horrific effect on some local health-care systems.

Illegals now get free emergency-room treatment for life-threatening conditions, as any other American who's entered an ER in an area with lots of illegals recently well knows. (Three-quarters of the illegal-immigrant population is concentrated in five states: California, New York, Florida, Texas and Illinois.)

But now they'd be eligible for the entire range of medical services, all free of charge. That would trigger severe rationing: bureaucrats deciding who gets to see an oncologist, who can have an MRI - and even who can have bypass surgery and who'd die for lack of it.

These decisions would be made not on the basis of legal status but on the brutal facts of triage: Treat the 37-year-old illegal with his whole life to live before you spend scarce resources on an overweight, diabetic, 80-year-old citizen with high blood pressure who smokes.

John McCain hasn't raised this issue, perhaps for fear of offending the Latino vote. But polling suggests the case against rationing of health care would be as persuasive to Hispanic-American citizens as it is to the rest of us. Nobody wants to die waiting in line - especially not behind someone who snuck in ahead of us.

McCain needs to hit the Obama plan for treating illegal immigrants to free, federally subsidized health insurance — and hit it hard.

[thecavemaster]

Against

http://www.newsmax.com/morris/obama_heal...14994.html


Obama: Healthcare for Illegals

Monday, July 21, 2008 9:06 PM
By: Dick Morris & Eileen McGann

Democrats' single most important domestic proposal — universal health insurance — may blow up in Barack Obama's face when voters are exposed to the deadly details.

Obama has said, proudly and often, "I am going to give health insurance to 47 million Americans who are now without coverage." But are they "Americans?"

That 47 million statistic includes illegal immigrants, who virtually all lack insurance. In fact, about one in four of those lacking insurance is here illegally. And they are, by far, the group most in need of health insurance.

About 15 million of the remaining uninsured are eligible for Medicaid but haven't signed up, mainly because they haven't gotten sick. When they do, they enroll in Medicaid and we pick up the full tab for their health care relatively cheaply. (About 80 percent of each Medicaid dollar goes to nursing-home care for the elderly, only about 20 percent for the medical needs of the poor.)

The rest of the uninsured pool? Virtually all the children are eligible for the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Some aren't enrolled because the parents haven't bothered, but most are eligible. That leaves about 20 million uninsured adults who are US citizens or legal immigrants. There are far better ways to handle their needs than to turn our entire health-care system upside down.

Care for illegals is the biggest unmet medical need in our nation, and Obama's program targets it squarely. But do we really want to give them federally paid coverage equal to what US senators get, as Obama proposes?

Covering illegals adds dramatically to the cost of any program - and would encourage more folks to enter America illicitly.

Obama's plan will likely have a horrific effect on some local health-care systems.

Illegals now get free emergency-room treatment for life-threatening conditions, as any other American who's entered an ER in an area with lots of illegals recently well knows. (Three-quarters of the illegal-immigrant population is concentrated in five states: California, New York, Florida, Texas and Illinois.)

But now they'd be eligible for the entire range of medical services, all free of charge. That would trigger severe rationing: bureaucrats deciding who gets to see an oncologist, who can have an MRI - and even who can have bypass surgery and who'd die for lack of it.

These decisions would be made not on the basis of legal status but on the brutal facts of triage: Treat the 37-year-old illegal with his whole life to live before you spend scarce resources on an overweight, diabetic, 80-year-old citizen with high blood pressure who smokes.

John McCain hasn't raised this issue, perhaps for fear of offending the Latino vote. But polling suggests the case against rationing of health care would be as persuasive to Hispanic-American citizens as it is to the rest of us. Nobody wants to die waiting in line - especially not behind someone who snuck in ahead of us.

McCain needs to hit the Obama plan for treating illegal immigrants to free, federally subsidized health insurance — and hit it hard.

I don't mind paying a FEW EXTRA TAX DOLLARS PER YEAR so that ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE in the United States, legal or illegal, can get medicine or stitches or chemotherapy. You feel differently, bless your heart.

[lawrencefan]

Without giving away your income, do you pay alot in taxes now?

[thecavemaster]

Without giving away your income, do you pay alot in taxes now?

Property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, gas taxes... none are immune. Let us say my income is $25,000 and your income is $75,000, wouldn't my extra few dollars reach as deep into my pockets as yours? If bread is $1.50, it is a bigger portion of the smaller income person's budget than the larger income person's budget. I don't particularly see the relevance of your question, though you must.

[EkyLb]

I don't mind paying a FEW EXTRA TAX DOLLARS PER YEAR so that ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE in the United States, legal or illegal, can get medicine or stitches or chemotherapy. You feel differently, bless your heart.

I along with probably everyone in the world wish that all people had terrific healthcare. That's not what this discussion is about. It is what is practical for our country and state governments to do to help people, without destroying our healthcare system. Would you like to be refused healthcare because you are older? Would you like to sit around and have a board of directors decide if you or someone else will get the open-heart surgery required to save your life? This is what will become of our healthcare system if we goto a universal coverage. Unless we require employers to carry insurance, which is very unlikely. Now if we require employers to carry insurance whether an employee is part-time, full-time, or a temp. Along with government assistance, btw the government will have to restrict gouging by insurance companies who make billions every year. If that is how it was done, it could possibly work. Although if everyone was insured, hospitals would be packed with everyone who has a runny nose or a sore back.

Would still probably sink most mom and pop stores.

Most top doctors would also go into large groups, and require patients to make large cash deposits every year for their services. For these doctors there would be no lines, and terrific healthcare. Most people would not be able to see these doctors.

[sportsfan1]

I along with probably everyone in the world wish that all people had terrific healthcare. That's not what this discussion is about. It is what is practical for our country and state governments to do to help people, without destroying our healthcare system. Would you like to be refused healthcare because you are older? Would you like to sit around and have a board of directors decide if you or someone else will get the open-heart surgery required to save your life? This is what will become of our healthcare system if we goto a universal coverage. Unless we require employers to carry insurance, which is very unlikely. Now if we require employers to carry insurance whether an employee is part-time, full-time, or a temp. Along with government assistance, btw the government will have to restrict gouging by insurance companies who make billions every year. If that is how it was done, it could possibly work. Although if everyone was insured, hospitals would be packed with everyone who has a runny nose or a sore back.

Would still probably sink most mom and pop stores.

Most top doctors would also go into large groups, and require patients to make large cash deposits every year for their services. For these doctors there would be no lines, and terrific healthcare. Most people would not be able to see these doctors.

Of the bolded, insurance companies are doing that very thing right now. My understanding of Obama's health care proposal is that everybody will have the option of taking the same coverage that is already given to the congressmen senators, etc. Just like an insurance company does there would be a list printed out that would let people know which doctors accept that coverage. So, if this universal coverage is going to act just like insurance companies do now, (cost aside) what's the difference?

[EkyLb]

Of the bolded, insurance companies are doing that very thing right now. My understanding of Obama's health care proposal is that everybody will have the option of taking the same coverage that is already given to the congressmen senators, etc. Just like an insurance company does there would be a list printed out that would let people know which doctors accept that coverage. So, if this universal coverage is going to act just like insurance companies do now, (cost aside) what's the difference?

Link please showing me where insurance companies are refusing to cover people based on age, or a board of directors deciding if you or the other person gets care.

[sportsfan1]

Link please showing me where insurance companies are refusing to cover people based on age, or a board of directors deciding if you or the other person gets care.

I don't have a link. It happens everyday. Insurance companies make you take physicals unless you are somehow lucky enough to be involved in an open enrollment. Older people have a harder time keeping insurance because insurance companies see them as high risk. You're telling me that you have never heard a doctor say that he/she is trying to get the insurance company to agree to cover certain procedures even when it is critical they get the care? They sit around and decide if that person is worth paying the claim for. To insurance companies it is all about money and money alone. I understand the business aspect and they have to make money, but where does it stop? We are told in the bible to love our neighbor as our brother. Would you not want your brother covered with medical insurance?

[lawrencefan]

Most of the 40 million who are uninsured are young healthy folks who choose to take the risk and go without private health insurance. If the government is going to provide all of our "needs", then I think it should provide all my food as well. I need food more than healthcare. I also need clothes, do you know how many Americans can't afford decent clothes?

[EkyLb]

I don't have a link. It happens everyday. Insurance companies make you take physicals unless you are somehow lucky enough to be involved in an open enrollment. Older people have a harder time keeping insurance because insurance companies see them as high risk. You're telling me that you have never heard a doctor say that he/she is trying to get the insurance company to agree to cover certain procedures even when it is critical they get the care? They sit around and decide if that person is worth paying the claim for. To insurance companies it is all about money and money alone. I understand the business aspect and they have to make money, but where does it stop? We are told in the bible to love our neighbor as our brother. Would you not want your brother covered with medical insurance?

Ive never had to take a physical for insurance purposes. Also, older people have medicare and medicaid to cover them. This is why sometimes there is a dispute with insurance companies, they want the government to take care of it, and let them slide on their responsibility. That's why mandated government insurance for employees and when they retire is the most essential thing this country needs in healthcare. Also government restrictions on premiums and co pays to protect the employers and employees. You can also protect the insurance companies. In cases where medical bills can stack up into the millions, whether it be someone with a disease or an accident leaving them in a vegtable state. The government can step in and help cover most of those expenses. Therefore keeping insurance companies from trying to jack prices up on their customers, but also keeping them from taking huge losses. I have no problem with the government helping out someone who gets a life threatening disease. Cancer, MS, or anything of the sort. I do have a problem with our government spending millions upon millions everytime an illegal immigrant gets a belly ache or a sore throat every year. I'm ok with helping out anyone in the world with a life threating disease. I don't care if they live here or not. I know that is not plausibile as we would go bankrupt in about 5 hours.

[thecavemaster]

Most of the 40 million who are uninsured are young healthy folks who choose to take the risk and go without private health insurance. If the government is going to provide all of our "needs", then I think it should provide all my food as well. I need food more than healthcare. I also need clothes, do you know how many Americans can't afford decent clothes?

I think you make an argument of the extreme (government providing for all our needs). Probably, the food we do eat causes a lot of our healthcare problems (obesity, high blood pressure, heart disease, etc.). As long as a Goodwill exists, and a few consignment stores, I won't need governmental clothes. I do think the WPA during the Depression years was a better answer to hard times and poverty than the current system.

[sportsfan1]

Ive never had to take a physical for insurance purposes. Also, older people have medicare and medicaid to cover them. This is why sometimes there is a dispute with insurance companies, they want the government to take care of it, and let them slide on their responsibility. That's why mandated government insurance for employees and when they retire is the most essential thing this country needs in healthcare. Also government restrictions on premiums and co pays to protect the employers and employees. You can also protect the insurance companies. In cases where medical bills can stack up into the millions, whether it be someone with a disease or an accident leaving them in a vegtable state. The government can step in and help cover most of those expenses. Therefore keeping insurance companies from trying to jack prices up on their customers, but also keeping them from taking huge losses. I have no problem with the government helping out someone who gets a life threatening disease. Cancer, MS, or anything of the sort. I do have a problem with our government spending millions upon millions everytime an illegal immigrant gets a belly ache or a sore throat every year. I'm ok with helping out anyone in the world with a life threating disease. I don't care if they live here or not. I know that is not plausibile as we would go bankrupt in about 5 hours.

I understand some of your points, which I never said anything about covering illegal immigrants. My point was that board members sitting around in a room making decisions on whether or not to pay for certain procedures, instead of leaving medical decisions up to people in the medical field does happen. If anyone thinks the healthcare system in this country doesn't have problems they are kidding themselves. Personally i don't know the best solution, but at least what Obama has proposed will help cover a lot of people who are having to do without. I do not want healthcare to be provided strictly by the government because there would be too many problems to name, but I have no problem with the government helping those in need.

[sportsfan1]

Most of the 40 million who are uninsured are young healthy folks who choose to take the risk and go without private health insurance. If the government is going to provide all of our "needs", then I think it should provide all my food as well. I need food more than healthcare. I also need clothes, do you know how many Americans can't afford decent clothes?

The government does have programs to try and help these kind of people, but again we are never going to be able to help everybody. Even with healthcare the government won't be able to help everybody. BTW The young people who chose to go without healthcare do so because of the enourmous expense that having healthcare brings. They do without healthcare so they can eat, but it should be easier for them to have both.

[thecavemaster]

There is an excellent and balanced comparison between the American and Canadian healthcare systems on Wikkipedia. I do find it interesting that the US has explicit laws that prohibit Medicare/Medicaid from negotiating drug prices. PHARMA has a very powerful lobby structure...and "helps" write most all legislation related to the pharmaceuticals industry. As Big Dan said in "O Brother Where Art Thou"... "It's all about the money, boys."

[Beetle01]

My solution would be as follows:

Mandatory Insurance by all employers for all workers, full-time or not
The Insurance standards and coverages would be the same as our government officials recieve.
A new Health-Care Cost efficiency department-regulates insurance costs, medicinal costs.
Government assistance to drug companies and insurance companies.If someone contracts some terrible illness and bills run up to 3 million, the government will step in and cover most. This is to protect Insurers and Insurees.
No taxes on medical doctors. However, govt. standards on what can be charged for certain procedure. If a doctor makes 200k after taxes now, he will makes 200k tax free under new plan. Thus lowering healthcare costs and not running people out of the medical field.(also keeps bills from rocketing to 3mil)
College students who do not fall under their parents insurance. Will recieve Govt. Insurance.
Govt. monetary awards for groundbreaking discoveries in the medical field. Medicine or devices.
In cases where carrying insurace for a small privately owned business would bankrupt said business, employees will fall under govt insurance.
Those on welfare(which I have a solution for it, but thats for antoher thread) or unemployment will recieve government mandated coverage. As long as their is proof of attempts to find employment or goto school.
If an employee falls under both govt and employer insurance, they will then be carried by the government, with 1/2 the normal fees being covered by employer, if employer does not fall under mom and pop clause. Mainly applies to students.

Medicare, Medicaid, and Disability will no longer exist, they will be converged into the Unified American Health Care Coverage.(which is my name for this)

Illegals will not recieve coverage, however, they will recieve emergency care as they do now, and coverage for life threatening diseases. I know this opens a door for a major increase in expense, and it will have to be decided on by the HCCED, but that's the best I could do without bankrupting a solid system of healthcare for all Americans.


Obviously there's other small things that need to be covered. However, I think if someone would take this outline for a healthcare plan in this country, everyone's healthcare would be better and cheaper.

[lawrencefan]

There isn't enough doctors in the world to see all the "sick" people who would be running to the doctor everytime their nose runs. What about malpractice. Who would all our attorney's sue? The doctors, the government?

[Beetle01]

Malpractice would still fall on the doctor, I don't see why you think that would have changed. In a malpractice suit, either the doctor or the hospital are usually to blame. Not the insurance carrier of the patient lol.