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09-19-2009, 07:13 PM
Excerpts from the article
On Aug. 13, ExxonMobil pleaded guilty in federal court to killing 85 birds that had come into contact with crude oil or other pollutants in uncovered tanks or waste-water facilities on its properties. The birds were protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, which dates back to 1918. The company agreed to pay $600,000 in fines and fees.
The number of birds killed by wind turbines is highly variable. And biologists believe Altamont, which uses older turbine technology, may be the worst example. But that said, the carnage there likely represents only a fraction of the number of birds killed by windmills. Michael Fry of the American Bird Conservancy estimates that U.S. wind turbines kill between 75,000 and 275,000 birds per year. Yet the Justice Department is not bringing cases against wind companies.
According to the American Wind Energy Association, the industry's trade association, each megawatt of installed wind-power results in the killing of between one and six birds per year. At the end of 2008, the U.S. had about 25,000 megawatts of wind turbines.
By 2030, environmental and lobby groups are pushing for the U.S. to be producing 20% of its electricity from wind. Meeting that goal, according to the Department of Energy, will require the U.S. to have about 300,000 megawatts of wind capacity, a 12-fold increase over 2008 levels. If that target is achieved, we can expect some 300,000 birds, at the least, to be killed by wind turbines each year.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...lenews_wsj
Thoughts?
On Aug. 13, ExxonMobil pleaded guilty in federal court to killing 85 birds that had come into contact with crude oil or other pollutants in uncovered tanks or waste-water facilities on its properties. The birds were protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, which dates back to 1918. The company agreed to pay $600,000 in fines and fees.
The number of birds killed by wind turbines is highly variable. And biologists believe Altamont, which uses older turbine technology, may be the worst example. But that said, the carnage there likely represents only a fraction of the number of birds killed by windmills. Michael Fry of the American Bird Conservancy estimates that U.S. wind turbines kill between 75,000 and 275,000 birds per year. Yet the Justice Department is not bringing cases against wind companies.
According to the American Wind Energy Association, the industry's trade association, each megawatt of installed wind-power results in the killing of between one and six birds per year. At the end of 2008, the U.S. had about 25,000 megawatts of wind turbines.
By 2030, environmental and lobby groups are pushing for the U.S. to be producing 20% of its electricity from wind. Meeting that goal, according to the Department of Energy, will require the U.S. to have about 300,000 megawatts of wind capacity, a 12-fold increase over 2008 levels. If that target is achieved, we can expect some 300,000 birds, at the least, to be killed by wind turbines each year.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...lenews_wsj
Thoughts?
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09-19-2009, 07:52 PM
Are you really worried about the birds or the coal? Windmills are killing our birds, coal is killing our kids, are you in favor of the birds?
09-19-2009, 08:08 PM
TheRealVille Wrote:Are you really worried about the birds or the coal? Windmills are killing our birds, coal is killing our kids, are you in favor of the birds?
:1::Thumbs:
09-19-2009, 08:44 PM
TheRealVille Wrote:Are you really worried about the birds or the coal? Windmills are killing our birds, coal is killing our kids, are you in favor of the birds?
What does this article have to do with coal.....nothing, if you want to discuss coal then start another thread.
If you had read the article you would have noticed that I titled this thread the same as the headline of the article. I ran across this article by accident, I never realized that upto 275,000 birds are killed by wind mills annually. According to the article if their target is reach by 2030 the number of birds killed annually by wind mills could reach 3 million.
Why is it that some sectors of the energy industry such as oil or electric companies to have to pay fines through the Migratory Bird Act when they kill these birds, but those in the wind mill industry don't?
BTW I thought you were for protecting all of the little critters out there in the wild.
09-19-2009, 08:58 PM
Old School Wrote:What does this article have to do with coal.....nothing, if you want to discuss coal then start another thread.So... you are more worried about birds than kids?
If you had read the article you would have noticed that I titled this thread the same as the headline of the article. I ran across this article by accident, I never realized that upto 275,000 birds are killed by wind mills annually. According to the article if their target is reach by 2030 the number of birds killed annually by wind mills could reach 3 million.
Why is it that some sectors of the energy industry such as oil or electric companies to have to pay fines through the Migratory Bird Act when they kill these birds, but those in the wind mill industry don't?
BTW I thought you were for protecting all of the little critters out there in the wild.
09-19-2009, 09:12 PM
TheRealVille Wrote:So... you are more worried about birds than kids?
Since you didn't comprehend my last post, I'll say it again this thread is about windmills/birds.....if you want to talk about coal then start a new thread. I would be more than happy to discuss/debate any aspect of coal with you.
09-19-2009, 09:19 PM
vundy33 Wrote:**** I kill around 200 birds a year...sue me.
Be careful some of these fruit loops may try. :biggrin:
09-19-2009, 10:18 PM
Old School Wrote:Be careful some of these fruit loops may try. :biggrin:
Calling Coach Owens!!!!! Where are you??? I'm sure he has done a study on this....lol
Just for curiosity sake:
A)Wonder how many birds are killed each year that run into cars?
B)Wonder how many birds are killed each year that get sucked up jet turbines?
09-22-2009, 12:43 AM
Mr.Kimball Wrote:Calling Coach Owens!!!!! Where are you??? I'm sure he has done a study on this....lol
Just for curiosity sake:
A)Wonder how many birds are killed each year that run into cars?
B)Wonder how many birds are killed each year that get sucked up jet turbines?
Does it make you feel better to take non-humorous personal shots at me? I really hope it does, because you seem to do it a lot.
I would really like for you to reply to anything I have said with some knowledgeable just one time, that's all. Humor me and say something intelligent.
09-22-2009, 09:05 AM
Coach_Owens87 Wrote:Does it make you feel better to take 1)non-humorous personal shots at me? I really hope it does, because you seem to do it a lot.
2)I would really like for you to reply to anything I have said with some knowledgeable just one time, that's all. 3)Humor me and say something intelligent.
1) Uh, I think sarcastic would probably be more correct, but humorous could apply I guess, if one wanted to apply that term. Hmmm, interesting interpretation.
2) I think we have all been there.... done that.... got nothing.... wasted our time.
3) Kinda ,back at ya babe.
09-22-2009, 09:13 AM
Absolutely ridiculous thread. I'm sure that these bird species have procreated somewhere else. This isn't an issue in my opinion. Wind turbines help to reduce the carbon emmisions that are typically associated with energy production. What we need to worry about is what the mass level of unemployed coal miners are going to do after cap and trade goes into effect since the wonderful Obama administration seems incapable of thinking any plan through.
09-22-2009, 09:20 AM
launchpad4 Wrote:Absolutely ridiculous thread. I'm sure that these bird species have procreated somewhere else. This isn't an issue in my opinion. Wind turbines help to reduce the carbon emmisions that are typically associated with energy production. What we need to worry about is what the mass level of unemployed coal miners are going to do after cap and trade goes into effect since the wonderful Obama administration seems incapable of thinking any plan through.
Think about it. I think there is an intended angle and purpose of this thread being posted. I can assure you that Old School is one sharp tack, and has that very thought close at heart.
09-22-2009, 12:43 PM
I know of millions of birds that are killed each year....
...they're called chickens, and they are tasty, especially with BBQ sauce!
...they're called chickens, and they are tasty, especially with BBQ sauce!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
09-22-2009, 01:41 PM
ComfortEagle Wrote:I know of millions of birds that are killed each year....
...they're called chickens, and they are tasty, especially with BBQ sauce!
Got any Honey Mustard?
09-22-2009, 02:08 PM
TheRealVille Wrote:Are you really worried about the birds or the coal? Windmills are killing our birds, coal is killing our kids, are you in favor of the birds?
That is the most blatantly false, as well as most ignorant statement I have ever seen on this or any website. We have a winner ladies and gentlemen, you are wasting your time even trying to come up with anything that can come close to topping this.
Coal is killing our kids. Good Lord.:dangcompu
09-22-2009, 03:33 PM
The way some of you folks define stewardship is certainly at odds with the religious tradition of which you claim to belong.
09-22-2009, 03:37 PM
Mr.Kimball Wrote:1) Uh, I think sarcastic would probably be more correct, but humorous could apply I guess, if one wanted to apply that term. Hmmm, interesting interpretation.
[B]2) I think we have all been there.... done that.... got nothing.... wasted our time.[/B]
3) Kinda ,back at ya babe.
lol, again you come back with nothing of substance, you where right though, you do waste your time.
09-22-2009, 03:53 PM
Old School Wrote:Excerpts from the article
On Aug. 13, ExxonMobil pleaded guilty in federal court to killing 85 birds that had come into contact with crude oil or other pollutants in uncovered tanks or waste-water facilities on its properties. The birds were protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, which dates back to 1918. The company agreed to pay $600,000 in fines and fees.
The number of birds killed by wind turbines is highly variable. And biologists believe Altamont, which uses older turbine technology, may be the worst example. But that said, the carnage there likely represents only a fraction of the number of birds killed by windmills. Michael Fry of the American Bird Conservancy estimates that U.S. wind turbines kill between 75,000 and 275,000 birds per year. Yet the Justice Department is not bringing cases against wind companies.
According to the American Wind Energy Association, the industry's trade association, each megawatt of installed wind-power results in the killing of between one and six birds per year. At the end of 2008, the U.S. had about 25,000 megawatts of wind turbines.
By 2030, environmental and lobby groups are pushing for the U.S. to be producing 20% of its electricity from wind. Meeting that goal, according to the Department of Energy, will require the U.S. to have about 300,000 megawatts of wind capacity, a 12-fold increase over 2008 levels. If that target is achieved, we can expect some 300,000 birds, at the least, to be killed by wind turbines each year.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...lenews_wsj
Thoughts?
To really use this as a anti-wind argument, shouldnt you also show why coal fired power plants, or other energy sources are more avain friendly then wind?
The only way birds can be killed by wind turbines is to directly fly into them, but coal can have many ways of harming and killing wildlife. Acid Rain, MTR, mine run off!
So lets compare some sources of energy and thier effects on avian life. Becuase if you arent comparing the anything, what good is this anti-wind argument you are using?
Here is some suprising info about the subject.
"When these avian deaths are correlated with the units of electricity those power plants produce, some may find the results surprising. Based on real world operating experience of 339 wind turbines comprising six wind farms constituting 274 MW of installed capacity in the U.S., average avian mortality for wind appears to be about 0.269 fatalities per GWh.
Based on real world operating experience for two coal facilities as well as the indirect damages from mountain top removal coal mining in Appalachia, acid rain pollution on wood thrushes, mercury pollution, and anticipated impacts of climate change, average avian mortality for fossil fueled power stations appears to be about 5.18 fatalities per GWh.
Based on real world operating experience at four nuclear power plants and two uranium mines and mills, average avian mortality for nuclear systems is about 0.416 GWh.
In terms of birds killed per electricity produced, nuclear power is slightly worse but comparable to wind energy, but fossil-fueled facilities are about 17 times more dangerous to birds on a per kWh basis. In absolute terms, since wind turbines produced a relatively small amount of national electricity in the United States in 2006, they may have killed about 7,000 but fossil fueled stations killed 14.5 million and nuclear power plants 327,000.
Clearly, wind energy is not as bad for birds as many environmentalists make it out to be, and conventional resources are much more damaging to birds than is commonly believed."
http://www.scitizen.com/stories/future-e...index.php?
To do some further reading on the subject, and to see where this author got his information, go here.
http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/docs/fac/benja...tality.pdf
09-22-2009, 04:17 PM
Coach_Owens87 Wrote:lol, again you come back with nothing of substance, you where right though, you do waste your time.
Your just not comprehending the essence of the thread's origination are you? Your chocking on the smoke, and cant even see the fire.
Kudo's Old School!!! Apparently it works without failure, every time. Who said they need to build a better mouse trap? :Thumbs:
09-22-2009, 05:06 PM
Man, and here I thought that this thread wouldnt be worth reading into. This is some solid, free entertainment, lol..
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
09-22-2009, 08:14 PM
Coach_Owens87 Wrote:To really use this as a anti-wind argument, shouldnt you also show why coal fired power plants, or other energy sources are more avain friendly then wind?
The only way birds can be killed by wind turbines is to directly fly into them, but coal can have many ways of harming and killing wildlife. Acid Rain, MTR, mine run off!
So lets compare some sources of energy and thier effects on avian life. Becuase if you arent comparing the anything, what good is this anti-wind argument you are using?
Here is some suprising info about the subject.
"When these avian deaths are correlated with the units of electricity those power plants produce, some may find the results surprising. Based on real world operating experience of 339 wind turbines comprising six wind farms constituting 274 MW of installed capacity in the U.S., average avian mortality for wind appears to be about 0.269 fatalities per GWh.
Based on real world operating experience for two coal facilities as well as the indirect damages from mountain top removal coal mining in Appalachia, acid rain pollution on wood thrushes, mercury pollution, and anticipated impacts of climate change, average avian mortality for fossil fueled power stations appears to be about 5.18 fatalities per GWh.
Based on real world operating experience at four nuclear power plants and two uranium mines and mills, average avian mortality for nuclear systems is about 0.416 GWh.
In terms of birds killed per electricity produced, nuclear power is slightly worse but comparable to wind energy, but fossil-fueled facilities are about 17 times more dangerous to birds on a per kWh basis. In absolute terms, since wind turbines produced a relatively small amount of national electricity in the United States in 2006, they may have killed about 7,000 but fossil fueled stations killed 14.5 million and nuclear power plants 327,000.
Clearly, wind energy is not as bad for birds as many environmentalists make it out to be, and conventional resources are much more damaging to birds than is commonly believed."
http://www.scitizen.com/stories/future-e...index.php?
To do some further reading on the subject, and to see where this author got his information, go here.
http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/docs/fac/benja...tality.pdf
Anti wind lol..... come on coach, you and I have had serveral discussions on energy over the past couple of years, and in all of those discussions how many times have I said, I was against wind mills.....a big fat ZERO. I have over 2,000 post on this site, and I challenge you to find one, just one where I said I was against wind mills. How may times have I said that I'm for all types of energy that will help us become engery independent, including wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, and coal?......I'd say about twenty or so.
As I said in a previous post I ran across this article by accident, and I never realized how many birds are killed by these wind mills annually, maybe you and others did, but I did not. Exxon Mobil killed 85 birds that came into contact with their crude oil and had to pay $600,000 dollars in fines. PacifiCorp paid 1.4 million in fines for killing 232 eagles that landed on poorly designed power lines over a 2 years period. These windmills are known to kill 275,000 (and could go up to 3 million) birds that fly into the blades or bats that can suffer internal hemorrhaging by flying to close to the towers annually without being fined one cent. Am I missing something here, if Exxon and PacifiCorps are punished for killing birds then shouldn't everyone be punished for the same offense.
BTW, If those bats happen to be the cute Indiana Bat everyone loves so much, then shouldn't the windmill project be scrapped, or at least moved to another site.
09-22-2009, 08:19 PM
TidesHoss32 Wrote:Man, and here I thought that this thread wouldnt be worth reading into. This is some solid, free entertainment, lol..
Oh Ye of Little Faith! :dontthink :Thumbs:
09-22-2009, 09:50 PM
jetpilot Wrote:That is the most blatantly false, as well as most ignorant statement I have ever seen on this or any website. We have a winner ladies and gentlemen, you are wasting your time even trying to come up with anything that can come close to topping this.:notworthy
Coal is killing our kids. Good Lord.:dangcompu
09-23-2009, 01:40 AM
Old School Wrote:Anti wind lol..... come on coach, you and I have had serveral discussions on energy over the past couple of years, and in all of those discussions how many times have I said, I was against wind mills.....a big fat ZERO. I have over 2,000 post on this site, and I challenge you to find one, just one where I said I was against wind mills. How may times have I said that I'm for all types of energy that will help us become engery independent, including wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, and coal?......I'd say about twenty or so.
As I said in a previous post I ran across this article by accident, and I never realized how many birds are killed by these wind mills annually, maybe you and others did, but I did not. Exxon Mobil killed 85 birds that came into contact with their crude oil and had to pay $600,000 dollars in fines. PacifiCorp paid 1.4 million in fines for killing 232 eagles that landed on poorly designed power lines over a 2 years period. These windmills are known to kill 275,000 (and could go up to 3 million) birds that fly into the blades or bats that can suffer internal hemorrhaging by flying to close to the towers annually without being fined one cent. Am I missing something here, if Exxon and PacifiCorps are punished for killing birds then shouldn't everyone be punished for the same offense.
BTW, If those bats happen to be the cute Indiana Bat everyone loves so much, then shouldn't the windmill project be scrapped, or at least moved to another site.
You may have never said anything against "green sources" but this post does have an anti-green energy message.
Id say that the laws would be up to each state to enforce, and im sure if a protected species was killed, the company would be fined, or asked to scrap the project, just like the one you metioned in WV.
And I like how you are up in arms about this apparent double standard, im sure that oil companies, or any big company for that matter have never been given unfair tax breaks, or had a blind eye turned to some dirty business, or anything of that sort to help their efforts. Just recently president bush changed the Endangered species act, to allow companies to assess their own damages to the environment, and allowed them to bypass around laws. He also changed some wording in the clean water act, which allowed coal companies to do things that should where previously illegal. This was an unfair advantage, and gave preference to fossil fuels for energy, but you didnt mention anything about that.
Double Standards appear everywhere, but I dont really think this applies here, theyre are too many wacko peta members to let a large number of animal killings go unnoticed.
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