[TheRealVille]

This is a bad one. I'm wondering how one Afghan can disarm all 8 of the soldiers, with only a 9mm. Looks like one of the soldiers could have got a shot off before he got all of their weapons.

An Afghan Air Corps pilot, angered by an argument with nine American trainers at Kabul airport, pulled a gun on the Americans, disarmed them and methodically killed them, officials said today.

The shooter then apparently shot and killed himself.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/afgh...d=13468438

[vundy33]

Well Ville, the only real conclusion I can come to is that he came back into the room guns up and caught everyone off-guard. When we train/with the Afghans, we always have a weapon, whether we're on a tiny outpost or a decent sized, relatively safe inside the wire base. But, I'm Infantry, so it's a bit different when we work with the Afghan Army ground forces compared to Air Force officers, alot of them reservists or guardsmen which means even more inexperience.

I've found some info on a site I go to that shows all the casualties from the Iraq and Afghan wars.

-8 American Airmen, 1 American civilian contractor were killed
-Only one of the eight American service members were officers: 1 Master Sgt, 2 Captains, 4 Majors, and 1 Lieutenant Colonel. (in order of lowest to highest rank)
-Only one of the 8 Americans had an MOS(job) anywhere close to a combat MOS, and that was an F-16 pilot


--List of the Airmen that were killed--

Air Force Master Sgt. Tara R. Brown--Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Joint Base Andrews, Maryland

Air Force Capt. Charles A. Ransom--83rd Network Operations Squardron, Joint Base Langley-Eustis, Virginia

Air Force Capt. Nathan J. Nylander--25th Operational Weather Squadron, Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Arizona

Air Force Maj. Philip D. Ambard--460th Space Communications Squadron, Buckley Air Force Base, Colorado

Air Force Maj. Jeffrey O. Ausborn --99th Flying Training Squadron, Randolph Air Force Base, Texas

Air Force Maj. David L. Brodeu--F-16 pilot, 11th Air Force, Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska

Air Force Maj. Raymond G Estelle II--Cyberspace Operations Officer, Air Force Smart Operations 21 Directorate, Headquarters Air Combat Command, Joint Base Langley-Eustis, Virginia

Air Force Lt. Col. Frank D. Bryant Jr.--56th Operations Group, Luke Air Force Base, Arizona



Well, this pretty much explains itself. The Air Force, besides a few jobs like combat controllers, Pararescue, or their version of MP's I think, may be a bit different, but anyway, most jobs really have nothing to do with weapons.

I did some research on the 8 KIA, and only one that I could find had a job that would even get him close to combat, and that was in an F-16, which we all know isn't the same and any kind of ground job where you'd always have your weapon and spend time outside the wire depending on your job.

And, 7 out of the 8 military personnel with weapons were officers, and even if they were Army or Corps infantry, once you get past Captain to Major, you'll be behind a desk. There's a good chance that would happen regardless if you were Infantry.



I think they all died because a lack of experience in any kind of combat, and hardly any training on the pistols that had on their thighs. Usually in the Army, a POG (person other than grunt/non-combat or non-infantry) officer at Major or higher will barely qualify with his weapon once a year, IF that. Regular POG enlisted sometimes qualify twice a year on their weapons, but usually it's just once.

Now imagine these factors coming together. Aggravation from the previous argument, complete surprise at gunpoint, your body feeling scared which is like a sick feeling, like you're going to puke...That's all it took for the Afghan. These were a bunch of big-time non-combat guys...an Airmen in a space unit, an Airmen in a weather unit, and two Airman computer specialists. The Major in the 99th Flying Training Squadron, along with the F-16 pilot BY FAR had the most experience out of the group. When they are doing their pilot training and all that, they go through a school/course called SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape). It is what it says..the school is primarily for aircrew (all aircraft including helo's) and guys like Snipers, Marine Corps ANGLICO, and Special Operations personnel that have a high risk of capture. The course has 3 levels, and each service has their own SERE program and of course the Corps and Navy's are together because the Marine Corps is part of the Navy. Level A is really just entry level that almost everyone will complete. Level B is the medium level which really focuses on survival and evasion, just how to live off the land and conceal yourself until help arrives. Level C will run through all of that again. I wasn't required to complete the entire level C, but I did have to take the resistance/capture course, and that includes pretty much certain torture and interrogation techniques that Americans have experienced in the past, from Iraq and Afghan to Vietnam. Things like water-boarding, dogs on leashes right in your face going crazy, getting punched in the face and ribs and getting hit with a small whip type thing that's just about 2 1/2-3ft long while your wet. I was lucky enough not to experience the latter because I managed to escape, but regardless, the point is this:

Those two pilots, especially the F-16 pilot, should have (notice I say should) been able to get the situation under control and eliminate the threat. I can definitely understand 100% the surprise of something like that, and we don't know all the details, but it was 8 military personnel that all probably had a pistol on their thigh or a rifle.

I still just can't see how it was possible for one man to walk into a room and kill 8 United States Air Force officers with a military issue crappy Beretta in 9mm. I mean even if he was a good 30 feet from our guys, it would take at least a little over 1 second to get an accurate sight picture and actually hit the person, and then another 2 -3 seconds depending on skill to acquire another sight picture. Also, like I said before, the weapon was the M9 Beretta 9mm. That pistol uses a 15-round magazine, and any gun owner on here will agree with me in saying that walking into a room with 8 Airmen with their own pistols and getting kill shots on every single one is just about impossible. I just don't see that being plausible.

The other option, I guess, would be if he came in all cool and calm and maybe apologized and got back to work on whatever they were doing, and then at extremely close range put kill shots on the Airmen. Again, I don't see this as working, because the 9 people probably weren't in a giant group hanging all on each other, and regardless, if someone doesn't notice the shooting raising a pistol to the head of someone before-hand, they sure as **** will after he's fired. There is a dang good chance that out of the 9 Americans in the room against 1 Afghan, the Americans would take him down and stop him, even if 2 or 3 got hit in the process. It's really hard for me to believe that either of these "ideas", I guess, could possibly work.


lol, /rant. I feel like a CSI dude or something. But on a serious note, I hate that this happened, especially since we have programs and classes before and during deployment to help us notice this kind of activity and be on alert for anything suspicious of our Afghan allies.

It's sad that they had to die, and I guarantee you that the Air Force or DoD as a whole will start pushing a new big initiative to watch for unstable or fake Afghan troops/police. It's ridiculous that people have to die for a human to change something.

[Stardust]

Wow, this is the first I heard of this.