[thecavemaster]

I think that the equal protection clause of the US Constitution should be extended to cover same sex unions. Same sex partners, it seems to me, should be able to get the same kinds of benefits from civil union that heterosexuals get in marriage. I believe the issue does not need to enter into the realm of theological debate. If the US were a theocracy, maybe. However, the US is a constitutional democracy. The civil authority can grant rights without entering into the whole "Adam and Steve/Eve" morass.

[ronald_reagan]

I think that the equal protection clause of the US Constitution should be extended to cover same sex unions. Same sex partners, it seems to me, should be able to get the same kinds of benefits from civil union that heterosexuals get in marriage. I believe the issue does not need to enter into the realm of theological debate. If the US were a theocracy, maybe. However, the US is a constitutional democracy. The civil authority can grant rights without entering into the whole "Adam and Steve/Eve" morass.

The federal government shouldn't be in the business of morality anyways. Other than on matter of life, limb, and property.

And the only 2 reasons that the federal government cares about marriage is for tax purposes (if they support gay rights), and votes from the religious right (if they don't.).

I don't think however that it should be a constitutional issue that blankets the nation. The vast majority of the states and people do not support it.. I think it should be a state rights issue I suppose. I'm somewhat conflicted though.

[thecavemaster]

Civil union could be treated, according to the legal system, just like marriage. Lots of men and women do the justice of the peace thing, marrying without "sanction" of the church. Of course, when same sex civils split up, they would have to "split the crap up" according to the same system. Allow churches to define "godly" marriage; allow the civil authority to give equal protection.

[ronald_reagan]

Civil union could be treated, according to the legal system, just like marriage. Lots of men and women do the justice of the peace thing, marrying without "sanction" of the church. Of course, when same sex civils split up, they would have to "split the crap up" according to the same system. Allow churches to define "godly" marriage; allow the civil authority to give equal protection.

I agree.

Marriage is ONLY a religious institutition. Government didn't come up with the idea... so I have to believe that their motives aren't the best when they either want to grant 'marriage' or deny it.

The government should only be in the business of 'marriage' as a legally binding contract that can be used in the case of taxes, earning, children, and property... on a variety of issues related to the things just mentioned. It should be a business deal. Not a 'moral' thing.

[thecavemaster]

What? We agree RR? "The sun is on a collision course with the earth...details later..."

[Coach_Owens87]

I agree.

Marriage is ONLY a religious institutition. Government didn't come up with the idea... so I have to believe that their motives aren't the best when they either want to grant 'marriage' or deny it.

The government should only be in the business of 'marriage' as a legally binding contract that can be used in the case of taxes, earning, children, and property... on a variety of issues related to the things just mentioned. It should be a business deal. Not a 'moral' thing.

I agree. I had a huge argument with a sociology teacher over this subject.

she was a Sunday school teacher at a pentecostal church and believed that all churches, and the government should honor same sex marriages.

Her main argument was that people are "born gay", and since it was genetic we shouldn't discriminate. She could only use some very flawed studies to back her opinion, and since I didn't agree with her opinion, or her facts, I just couldn't keep quite.

[ronald_reagan]

Her main argument was that people are "born gay", and since it was genetic we shouldn't discriminate. She could only use some very flawed studies to back her opinion, and since I didn't agree with her opinion, or her facts, I just couldn't keep quite.

While we may agree on government keeping out....

We don't agree on this. I believe, and very strongly that gays are born.. well, gay. I believe it to be physiological in nature... may or may not be genetic, but definately physiological.

Let me ask you something. When you were old enough to start being attracted to others... did you make a choice?? Did you think to yourself... well, I could go with a guy or a girl. I think I'll take the girl. Or was it just natural that you were attracted to them?

Do you think that with all the gay bashing and hate that is associated with it, someone would actually willingly choose to be treated that way? Its just not logical.

[vundy33]

Let them do whatever they want. Gay people are going to be gay whether they are married or just dating. It doesn't hurt anyone so let them be.

[Coach_Owens87]

While we may agree on government keeping out....

We don't agree on this. I believe, and very strongly that gays are born.. well, gay. I believe it to be physiological in nature... may or may not be genetic, but definately physiological.

Let me ask you something. When you were old enough to start being attracted to others... did you make a choice?? Did you think to yourself... well, I could go with a guy or a girl. I think I'll take the girl. Or was it just natural that you were attracted to them?

Do you think that with all the gay bashing and hate that is associated with it, someone would actually willingly choose to be treated that way? Its just not logical.

Well that goes into the whole nature vs nurture debate. There has been some studies that indicate genetics, like the study done by Simon Levay. His studies showed there where certain genes that caused someone to be gay, but his results have never been duplicated, and no one has found a link to genes and sexual orientation, so I cant believe you are born that way. Some guys are born with different hormone levels, and are more masculine and feminine than others, but I don't think that makes you "born" a certain way.

I believe it all goes back to urges, Ive had violent urges to hurt people, but I don't act on them. Ive often wondered what certain drugs would do to me, but I don't act on these urges. I think the same applies to homosexuals. I know of people who have claimed to be gay, had homosexual relations, and then became "straight" again. Did they not choose to do what they done?

If you say someone is born gay, then pedophiles must be that way too, right? It's been shown that in a lot of cases, pedophiles where raped as kids. I believe the same things happens in some cases of homosexuality. if you are introduced to a certian lifestyle or behavior at an impressionable time in your life, your more likely to keep doing those things. Society views pedophiles in a very negative way, but they still do it. I don't see people out asking for rights to pedophiles. Just becuase society views something in a negative way, doesn't mean that people wont choose to do it. My belief is that your sexual preference is decided by the circumstances in your life, and until something proves otherwise, I will stick to this belief.

[ronald_reagan]

Well that goes into the whole nature vs nurture debate. There has been some studies that indicate genetics, like the study done by Simon Levay. His studies showed there where certain genes that caused someone to be gay, but his results have never been duplicated, and no one has found a link to genes and sexual orientation, so I cant believe you are born that way. Some guys are born with different hormone levels, and are more masculine and feminine than others, but I don't think that makes you "born" a certain way.

I believe it all goes back to urges, Ive had violent urges to hurt people, but I don't act on them. Ive often wondered what certain drugs would do to me, but I don't act on these urges. I think the same applies to homosexuals. I know of people who have claimed to be gay, had homosexual relations, and then became "straight" again. Did they not choose to do what they done?

If you say someone is born gay, then pedophiles must be that way too, right? It's been shown that in a lot of cases, pedophiles where raped as kids. I believe the same things happens in some cases of homosexuality. if you are introduced to a certian lifestyle or behavior at an impressionable time in your life, your more likely to keep doing those things. Society views pedophiles in a very negative way, but they still do it. I don't see people out asking for rights to pedophiles. Just becuase society views something in a negative way, doesn't mean that people wont choose to do it. My belief is that your sexual preference is decided by the circumstances in your life, and until something proves otherwise, I will stick to this belief.

I asked you point blank though.. did you 'choose' to be hetrosexual?

And yes, to an extent, I believe it to be true that pedophiles suffer from a medical condition as well. Go back and reread my post. I think a more thorough review of it will have you understanding where i come from a little better.

Let me ask you something. When you were old enough to start being attracted to others... did you make a choice?? Did you think to yourself... well, I could go with a guy or a girl. I think I'll take the girl. Or was it just natural that you were attracted to them?

Also homosexuality has been observed in 1500 species of animals. Some in loving 'relationships', others in sexual acts.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ani...l_behavior

[Coach_Owens87]

I asked you point blank though.. did you 'choose' to be hetrosexual?

And yes, to an extent, I believe it to be true that pedophiles suffer from a medical condition as well. Go back and reread my post. I think a more thorough review of it will have you understanding where i come from a little better.

Let me ask you something. When you were old enough to start being attracted to others... did you make a choice?? Did you think to yourself... well, I could go with a guy or a girl. I think I'll take the girl. Or was it just natural that you were attracted to them?

Also homosexuality has been observed in 1500 species of animals. Some in loving 'relationships', others in sexual acts.






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ani...l_behavior

The sexual oreintation, and motives of animals is poorly understood, so that argument doesnt prove much when it comes to humans. As you mentioned not all of the homosexual behavior in animals is sex, and in a lot of cases the sexual acts are nothing more than a show of dominance.

'She argues that female macaques may enhance their social position through homosexual intimacy which in turn influences breeding success. Parish says, "Taking something that's nonreproductive, like mounting another female—if it leads to control of a resource or acquisition of a resource or a good alliance partner, that could directly impact your reproductive success."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...nimal.html

The one thing that sets us apart from animals is our ability to concisouly make choices. This is why using animal behavior to compare with humans is not valid.

And to answer your question, I dont think I ever put in the context of "hey I can have a girl or a guy", but I do think I made a choice on my sexual orientation.

[ronald_reagan]

the ad on the website right now is hilarious! lol

"Is AIDS a GAY disease?" HAHA, I wasn't aware that diseases had sexual oreintations....

I'm afraid to even click on it. it might be a 'virus'

[thecavemaster]

Based on equal protection under the law, and as for the civil authority, I don't think it matters how or why a person comes to a justice of the peace with a same sex partner. Whether the how's and why's become a sociological debate or a theological one, the issue for the American civil authority is one of equal protection.