[honestjchsfan]

DR J played 4216 more NBA minutes than MJ did but still MJ shoots 700 more free throws! Come ON Jordan Jockers, we are talking DR J here! We are not talking about some white dude that couldn't jump and only shot jump shots!

[honestjchsfan]

[honestjchsfan]

BY my calculation MJ would have got fouled 300 more times than the DR did in this video:biglmao:

[honestjchsfan]

I give the edge to Jordan or Kobe over Kareem. And that is not a slam against Kareem! Jordan changed the game FOREVER! Jordan made basketball an end-to-end game. Kareem or Wilt ALWAYS had to have someone deliver them the basketball. They could never start at the perimeter and create a shot. They played in a nera where centers posted, were fed, and then made 1 or two moves. Jordan (along with Bird, Magic, and several others slightly before Jordan's era) made creating your own offense the most valuable part of the came. Kareem could NOT score his 30+ per game without Lucious Allen at UCLA, Oscar Robertson in Milwaukee, or Magic in LA! Thus, you can't give all the judo's to Kareem without acknowledging the great Point Guards that made his scoring feats possible. Again, I am not knocking Kareem, prior to Jordan, he was 2nd only to Dr. J as my favorite player. But trying to compare Kareem to Oscar Robertson, MJ or Kobe is not really possible unless you can wrap all five positions on the floor, and those three were able to play 3 and even four or those positions! Kareem, Center only!

Kareem was ahead of his time! Just like Wilt was, just like, just like Magic was and just like MJ was. Let's not even try to compare a Lew Alcindor led team 1971 team to a 1993 MJ team. Look it up on youtube. That was an era when guys could only dribble with one hand. That alone means you cannot transport a team up in time and reasonably think that team could compete in a more advanced day.

Good argument, but my money is MJ as the greatest and most influential player of the game of basketball and the way it is played today!

Kareem went against Wilt, Mose Malone, Parrish, Walton, Sampson, Gilmore, Ewing MJ went against Bryon Russel, Craig Ehlo , John Starks my point is Kareem played vs tougher completion from his position than MJ ever did!

[KHSAA12]

Even if he did get everything and traveled. Give me Jordans motor, skill, and iq of the game over anyone else in Nba history. Close second Magic, but one on one Jordan all day everyday. And twice on sunday lol.

[Stardust]

Kareem went against Wilt, Mose Malone, Parrish, Walton, Sampson, Gilmore, Ewing MJ went against Bryon Russel, Craig Ehlo , John Starks my point is Kareem played vs tougher completion from his position than MJ ever did!

LOL, MJ went against a couple of others than that: Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Magic Johnson, Joe Dumars, Isaiah Thomas, Dr. J, Larry Bird, Allen Iverson, Dennis Rodman. If you want to go with the Competition Argument, I can GUARENTEE you that Kareem played against more Mark Eaton's than MJ played. I can also guarentee you that MJ matched up against more HOF'ers than that Kareem did. This is not comparable, Kareem matched up against ONE position, Center! MJ matched up against three positions every single night, and during the 80's, there were an awful lot of All-Stars. Kareem had nights off. Now, I preface this again, I am in no way knocking #33, he was arguably the greatest center to ever play the game. But, Centers can ONLY be effective because of the other players on the floor. MJ changed the game by making the game an Outside - In game.

[honestjchsfan]

LOL, MJ went against a couple of others than that: Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Magic Johnson, Joe Dumars, Isaiah Thomas, Dr. J, Larry Bird, Allen Iverson, Dennis Rodman. If you want to go with the Competition Argument, I can GUARENTEE you that Kareem played against more Mark Eaton's than MJ played. I can also guarentee you that MJ matched up against more HOF'ers than that Kareem did. This is not comparable, Kareem matched up against ONE position, Center! MJ matched up against three positions every single night, and during the 80's, there were an awful lot of All-Stars. Kareem had nights off. Now, I preface this again, I am in no way knocking #33, he was arguably the greatest center to ever play the game. But, Centers can ONLY be effective because of the other players on the floor. MJ changed the game by making the game an Outside - In game.

That's were you and the Jordan jockers are wrong it has documented that MJ was guarded the largest percentage of the time by guys like Craig Ehlo, John Starks, Byron Russel. Charles Barkley never guarded MJ he was power Forward, he made have guarded for a play or something but they were not matched on each other and the same for Larry Bird. Kareem just about every night went up against a TOP 50 guy in NBA history, from Wilt to Ewing.

[Stardust]

Stop it!!! Lol, You will have to show me where that is documented on Jordan!

Kareem just about every night went up against a TOP 50 guy in NBA history, from Wilt to Ewing.

Where do you want to start? 1980???

ATLANTA HAWKS - Wayne Rollins

BOSTON CELTICS - Robert Parish

CHICAGO BULLS - Artis Gilmore

CLEVELAND CAVALIERS - Bill Robinzine

DALLAS MAVERICKS - Ralph Drollinger

DENVER NUGGETS - Dave Robisch

DETROIT PISTONS - Paul Mokeski

GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS - Joe Barry Carroll

HOUSTON ROCKETS - Moses Malone

INDIANA PACERS - James Edwards

KANSAS CITY KINGS - Leon Douglas

LOS ANGELES LAKERS - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

MILWAUKEE BUCKS - Bob Lanier

NEW JERSEY NETS - Mike Gminski

NEW YORK KNICKS - Marvin Webster

PHILADELPHIA 76ERS - Caldwell Jones

PHOENIX SUNS - Alvan Adams

PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS - Mychal Thompson

SAN ANTONIO SPURS - Mark Olberding

SAN DIEGO CLIPPERS - Swen Nater

SEATTLE SUPERSONICS - Jack Sikma

UTAH JAZZ - Ben Poquette

WASHINGTON BULLETS - Wes Unseld

[RunItUpTheGut]

^
I can honestly say ive only heard of 4 of those nicker:
And that doesnt mean they were top 50 either .....

[honestjchsfan]

Stop it!!! Lol, You will have to show me where that is documented on Jordan!

Where do you want to start? 1980???

ATLANTA HAWKS - Wayne Rollins

BOSTON CELTICS - Robert Parish

CHICAGO BULLS - Artis Gilmore

CLEVELAND CAVALIERS - Bill Robinzine

DALLAS MAVERICKS - Ralph Drollinger

DENVER NUGGETS - Dave Robisch

DETROIT PISTONS - Paul Mokeski

GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS - Joe Barry Carroll

HOUSTON ROCKETS - Moses Malone

INDIANA PACERS - James Edwards

KANSAS CITY KINGS - Leon Douglas

LOS ANGELES LAKERS - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

MILWAUKEE BUCKS - Bob Lanier

NEW JERSEY NETS - Mike Gminski

NEW YORK KNICKS - Marvin Webster

PHILADELPHIA 76ERS - Caldwell Jones

PHOENIX SUNS - Alvan Adams

PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS - Mychal Thompson

SAN ANTONIO SPURS - Mark Olberding

SAN DIEGO CLIPPERS - Swen Nater

SEATTLE SUPERSONICS - Jack Sikma

UTAH JAZZ - Ben Poquette

WASHINGTON BULLETS - Wes Unseld

Wes Unseld = HOF , Bob Lanier=HOF, Dan Issel=HOF, Mose Malone=HOF, Dave Cowens=HOF, Robert Parrish=HOF, Jack Sikma = 7 time NBA All-star, 2 time ALL defensive team, Mark Eaton = 2 time NBA Defensive player of the year, 4 time NBA Block Shot leader, Wilt Chamberlain= HOF Artis Gilmore=HOF, Hakeem Olajuwon=HOF, Patrick Ewing=HOF, Nate Thurmond=HOF, Willis Reed=HOF, Bill Walton=HOF TRee Rollin 2 time NBA All Defensive team, Ralph Sampson=NBA rookies of year, 4 time NBA All-star, NBA All-Star game MVP, Bill Laimbeer=NBA rebound Champion, 4 time NBA All-star, Bradley Daugherty 5 time NBA all-star no scrubs on this list!

[honestjchsfan]

[honestjchsfan]

Wes Unseld = HOF , Bob Lanier=HOF, Dan Issel=HOF, Mose Malone=HOF, Dave Cowens=HOF, Robert Parrish=HOF, Jack Sikma = 7 time NBA All-star, 2 time ALL defensive team, Mark Eaton = 2 time NBA Defensive player of the year, 4 time NBA Block Shot leader, Wilt Chamberlain= HOF Artis Gilmore=HOF, Hakeem Olajuwon=HOF, Patrick Ewing=HOF, Nate Thurmond=HOF, Willis Reed=HOF, Bill Walton=HOF TRee Rollin 2 time NBA All Defensive team, Ralph Sampson=NBA rookies of year, 4 time NBA All-star, NBA All-Star game MVP, Bill Laimbeer=NBA rebound Champion, 4 time NBA All-star, Bradley Daugherty 5 time NBA all-star no scrubs on this list!

[Stardust]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/82558...r-russells

[Stardust]

Scoring: Jordan - Michael Jordan has the highest career points per game average (30.1) in NBA History compared the Kareem's (24.6). He is third on the all-time list, and he did it all in just 14 full seasons and one month in 1995. Kareem may have the highest point total, but thats because he played for 21 years, from 69-89. If Jordan hadn't retired, he'd be the sole member of the 40,000 point club.

Defense: Jordan made 9 All-NBA Defensive First Teams. Kareem made 5 first teams and 6 second teams...remember 20 years vs 14...

Championships: Jordan - Although, they both have 6, Kareem never won 3 in row (which Jordan did twice) and had two other Hall of Fame talents on his team in Magic and Worthy. In fact, in one of those championships, Magic as a rookie played center when Kareem was hurt, and brought LA the title. Thats how good the Lakers were. The Bulls didnt have that type of depth except in 91 and 96 yet Jordan carried them on his back in games they could have easily lost (93 Finals Game 6, 97 Finals Games 1, 5 and 6 98 Finals, Game 6) which is why Jordan won all 6 Finals MVPs...compared to Kareems 2.

Again, Centers CANNOT take over a game! Center's must be fed! MJ took over games all by himself!

[Stardust]

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/flagra...e-greatest

[honestjchsfan]

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/flagra...e-greatest

They throw out stats that don't favor MJ, like rebound titles MJ=0 Kareem =1 advantage Kareem, Block Shot titles MJ=0 Kareem=4 advantage Kareem, plus they throw out all college stats and awards. College scoring Kareem 26.4 MJ 17.7 advantage Kareem, College rebounds Kareem 15.5 MJ 5.0 Advantage Kareem. Plus the throw out college titles Kareem=3 MJ=1 Advantage Kareem, Then in NBA titles they award MJ for going 6 and 0 but IMO this should go to Kareem 6-4 because it proves he advanced his team deeper in the playoffs than MJ, who did play 15 NBA seasons, so there was 9 years he was setting at the house watching. They also fail to award Kareem anything for his durability 20 year playing at least 62 of his teams game MJ played one season of 18 games and another of 17 games advantage Kareem. The writer is clearly bias he raves all about MJ's steals but fails to mention that Kareem in 3rd all time in Blocked shots and one of only 4 men in the 3000 blocked shot club.

[honestjchsfan]

There are also other notable statistical achievements that many people forget: Kareem scored over 6000 more career points than MJ, had fewer career TOV, blocked 2296 more shots had more career AST, and had 10768 more TRB. YES Kareem had more career AST and turned the ball over fewer times than MJ!!! OVER 13000 more rebounds and blocks combined than MJ!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess coach Cal was a genius when he brought in Anthony Davis to UK because it seems blocked shot and rebounds have no impact on the outcome of basketball games!

[Patch]

Kareem was great, no doubt. But if he doesn't have Oscar Robertson in Milwaukee, no title, and if not for Magic in Los Angeles, no title there either. And yes, Jordan needed Pippen to get his championships lets keep in mind how Pippen did without Jordan, not only not winning a title but completely losing any clutch ability as seen in the playoffs against the Knicks. It is not a ridiculous argument to have trying to say Kareem is better than Jordan, they both had incredible careers. But, Jordan was hands down the best of his era, no arguing that if one will be unbiased. He was the complete package; scoring, passing, defending, blocking shots (anyone remember that block on Ewing?), clutch play....he did it all. And that 63 point game against Boston was done after him missing much of the season due to a broken foot. When men like Knight, Bird and others with that kind of basketball IQ come out and support Michael Jordan as the best of all time, I tend to trust their judgment but I still do my own research and form my own opinion, and based on 6 championships without ever losing a championship series, 6 finals mvp's, two Olympic gold medals, the most prolific per game scoring average in the history of the NBA and even more stats and accomplishments than I care to put on this post, I would say that Michael Jordan is the greatest player to ever play the game of basketball and while Kareem was one of the greatest in history, he was not the best, in my humble opinion.

[honestjchsfan]

Kareem was great, no doubt. But if he doesn't have Oscar Robertson in Milwaukee, no title, and if not for Magic in Los Angeles, no title there either. And yes, Jordan needed Pippen to get his championships lets keep in mind how Pippen did without Jordan, not only not winning a title but completely losing any clutch ability as seen in the playoffs against the Knicks. It is not a ridiculous argument to have trying to say Kareem is better than Jordan, they both had incredible careers. But, Jordan was hands down the best of his era, no arguing that if one will be unbiased. He was the complete package; scoring, passing, defending, blocking shots (anyone remember that block on Ewing?), clutch play....he did it all. And that 63 point game against Boston was done after him missing much of the season due to a broken foot. When men like Knight, Bird and others with that kind of basketball IQ come out and support Michael Jordan as the best of all time, I tend to trust their judgment but I still do my own research and form my own opinion, and based on 6 championships without ever losing a championship series, 6 finals mvp's, two Olympic gold medals, the most prolific per game scoring average in the history of the NBA and even more stats and accomplishments than I care to put on this post, I would say that Michael Jordan is the greatest player to ever play the game of basketball and while Kareem was one of the greatest in history, he was not the best, in my humble opinion.

In 1993 the Bulls were 57-25 in 1994 MJ retires and the Bulls go 55-27 and get Robbed I mean ROBBED vs the Knicks in the playoffs. 2 game drop without MJ

[honestjchsfan]

Kareem was great, no doubt. But if he doesn't have Oscar Robertson in Milwaukee, no title, and if not for Magic in Los Angeles, no title there either. And yes, Jordan needed Pippen to get his championships lets keep in mind how Pippen did without Jordan, not only not winning a title but completely losing any clutch ability as seen in the playoffs against the Knicks. It is not a ridiculous argument to have trying to say Kareem is better than Jordan, they both had incredible careers. But, Jordan was hands down the best of his era, no arguing that if one will be unbiased. He was the complete package; scoring, passing, defending, blocking shots (anyone remember that block on Ewing?), clutch play....he did it all. And that 63 point game against Boston was done after him missing much of the season due to a broken foot. When men like Knight, Bird and others with that kind of basketball IQ come out and support Michael Jordan as the best of all time, I tend to trust their judgment but I still do my own research and form my own opinion, and based on 6 championships without ever losing a championship series, 6 finals mvp's, two Olympic gold medals, the most prolific per game scoring average in the history of the NBA and even more stats and accomplishments than I care to put on this post, I would say that Michael Jordan is the greatest player to ever play the game of basketball and while Kareem was one of the greatest in history, he was not the best, in my humble opinion.

[honestjchsfan]

[quote=Stardust]Scoring: Jordan - Michael Jordan has the highest career points per game average (30.1) in NBA History compared the Kareem's (24.6). He is third on the all-time list, and he did it all in just 14 full seasons and one month in 1995. Kareem may have the highest point total, but thats because he played for 21 years, from 69-89. If Jordan hadn't retired, he'd be the sole member of the 40,000 point club.

Defense: Jordan made 9 All-NBA Defensive First Teams. Kareem made 5 first teams and 6 second teams...remember 20 years vs 14...

Championships: Jordan - Although, they both have 6, Kareem never won 3 in row (which Jordan did twice) and had two other Hall of Fame talents on his team in Magic and Worthy. In fact, in one of those championships, Magic as a rookie played center when Kareem was hurt, and brought LA the title. Thats how good the Lakers were. The Bulls didnt have that type of depth except in 91 and 96 yet Jordan carried them on his back in games they could have easily lost (93 Finals Game 6, 97 Finals Games 1, 5 and 6 98 Finals, Game 6) which is why Jordan won all 6 Finals MVPs...compared to Kareems 2.

Again, Centers CANNOT take over a game! Center's must be fed! MJ took over games all by himself![/

Again, Centers CANNOT take over a game! Center's must be fed! MJ took over games all by himself ??????????????? Thank god Anthony Davis didn't look at things the way you do or UK would still be stuck on 7 NCAA titles!! Odds are Nerlens Noel with a bum knee will be the first pick in the NBA draft because blocked shots and rebounds is what WIN GAMES! PS I thought Pippen and Rodman were in the Hall of fame ????

[Stardust]

^ It's not the way I think, it's just a fact of how the NBA game has changed! Thanks to Air Jordan, Centers do not establish a teams offense any longer!

[honestjchsfan]

^ It's not the way I think, it's just a fact of how the NBA game has changed! Thanks to Air Jordan, Centers do not establish a teams offense any longer!

Come on Dusty! Roy Hibbert had 29 and 10 tonight and he is a scrub! Kareem in his prime goes for 40 and 15 and the Heat lose by 20. Hibbert plays like a Black Frankenstien! You Jordan jockers make crazy statements and ignore facts! MJ never changed the game! The NBA is begging for skilled centers!

[Stardust]

[Image: http://newmediatravel.com/wp-content/upl...oring2.jpg]

[honestjchsfan]

^If Phil Jackson said MJ was better and all these 80 players (Magic, Bird, etc.) say Jordan was the best to play the game, then end of discussion. Jordan changed the game and that's just the way it is. He is unblemished in the NBA Finals. Six for six and all six finals mvps along with 5 season mvps. Only lebron is on the path to contest all hardware of mj. Yes Kobe has five rings, but just 2 finals mvps and 1 regular season mvp over a 17 year career. And both have lost in the finals twice. And Pau Gasol will be in the hall of fame when its all said and done imo. And without Pau even as a role player the Lakers dont make that run. But just to me it cant be argued if the greats say hes the greatest.

[Patch]

Jordan is in a league of his own. Lebron is great but has already lost two championship series, getting swept in one and losing 4-2 in the other. Kobe lost a couple of times, once when he had a team with Shaq, Karl Malone and Gary Payton, granted the last two were at the end of their careers however Kobe and Shaq still had plenty of miles left in them and they lost to a Piston's team that might not have a HOF'er on the team. Jordan not only won his titles, he dominated them. Lots of great players but Jordan was incredible all the way around, even with him being double teamed nightly up until the very end of his career he was shooting over 50% for HIS CAREER, not just one season, but overall. He finished around the high 49% I think, too lazy to look it up. I am not sure if Kobe has done it once and even Lebron had not shot that much for one season until the last couple of years. The year Jordan averaged in the mid-30's per game he shot 54%, that is unreal for someone who is not a center. I know I won't change anyone's mind who is very biased towards one player or another, but if someone is looking at everything as a total, Michael Jeffrey Jordan is the greatest of all time.

[honestjchsfan]

Jordan is in a league of his own. Lebron is great but has already lost two championship series, getting swept in one and losing 4-2 in the other. Kobe lost a couple of times, once when he had a team with Shaq, Karl Malone and Gary Payton, granted the last two were at the end of their careers however Kobe and Shaq still had plenty of miles left in them and they lost to a Piston's team that might not have a HOF'er on the team. Jordan not only won his titles, he dominated them. Lots of great players but Jordan was incredible all the way around, even with him being double teamed nightly up until the very end of his career he was shooting over 50% for HIS CAREER, not just one season, but overall. He finished around the high 49% I think, too lazy to look it up. I am not sure if Kobe has done it once and even Lebron had not shot that much for one season until the last couple of years. The year Jordan averaged in the mid-30's per game he shot 54%, that is unreal for someone who is not a center. I know I won't change anyone's mind who is very biased towards one player or another, but if someone is looking at everything as a total, Michael Jeffrey Jordan is the greatest of all time.

Why don't you explain why Kareem only shot only 500 more free throws than MJ? Kareem played inside and had over 10,000 more career rebounds than MJ. He played 488 more games. Larry Bird played 175 fewer games than MJ but MJ shoots 4000 more FREE throw??? Larry Bird has over 2000 more Rebounds than MJ. Larry Bird and Kareem combine to score over 25,000 more points than MJ but combined, BIRD AND KAREEM SHOOT over 3500 FEWER free throws. Players get fouled on rebounds all the time! YOU DON"T SEE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THESE NUMBERS?? MJ WAS PROTECTED!

[Stardust]

[Image: http://newmediatravel.com/wp-content/upl...oring2.jpg]

[Stardust]

Why don't you explain why Kareem only shot only 500 more free throws than MJ? Kareem played inside and had over 10,000 more career rebounds than MJ. He played 488 more games. Larry Bird played 175 fewer games than MJ but MJ shoots 4000 more FREE throw??? Larry Bird has over 2000 more Rebounds than MJ. Larry Bird and Kareem combine to score over 25,000 more points than MJ but combined, BIRD AND KAREEM SHOOT over 3500 FEWER free throws. Players get fouled on rebounds all the time! YOU DON"T SEE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THESE NUMBERS?? MJ WAS PROTECTED!

Sorry, no NBA Legend agree's with you! Who would know, umm, Maybe Magic???? If Magic Johnson, who would know better than you or I, the person played with them both, proclaims MJ, then his opinion trumps us both!

[YOUTUBE="Magic on MJ"]3wcr3PR3AQw[/YOUTUBE]

[honestjchsfan]

Not all NBA legends say MJ [url=http://<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9M-KCulzJqg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>]http://<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9M-KCulzJqg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/url]