[bucslover68]

Since I started the thread, let me weigh in. Belfry is hands down the better program if you look strictly at head to head results. A twelve game winning streak has them squarely in the lead in that category. The overall argument, however, is a lot closer and if you are scoring it like a boxing match based on percentages, lets say, I would score it 51-49. Taking off my red-colored glasses I can make an argument for both programs to be on the side that is 51 pct.
Pikeville claims the title 51-49 based on...The magical three year run and 4/5 state championship appearances. Their 6 championship game appearances since 72 are not bad at all.
HP makes a great point on the "mountain impact" of the PHS dynasty during that time.
Other factors...Hillard Howard...Overall numbers would be close to Haywood if he had stayed at PHS.
Factors that prevent PHS from winning this argument greater than 51-49 IMO....Their highs have been very high, but their lows have been very low..Pikeville shouldn't lose to the likes of South Floyd or Fleming-Neon and barely escape Allen Central...They haven't been back to state since 1991... They have had several opportunities, but IMO, only the 94, 99' and 00 teams were real contenders...Pikeville has a good fan base, but it is not great...It is very fickle, as are some Belfry fans. PHS fans have many years supported the program very well during the high years and very lukewarm during the low years.

Belfry wins the the argument based on...9 championship game appearances and 2 championships since 1979...Haywood...no further explanation necessary...the ability to compete with some of the state's best programs...The most noticeable example would be the 5 game history with Highlands...2-3 all-time...unfortunately no games since 1990 but winners of 2 out the the last 3 and the only loss an OT loss, 21-14 on the road in the state semis in 89...the lows have not been near as low..Belfry was average at best during the 90s, but they have never had many bad losses like Pikeville and the run they have had in the recent ten year stretch has only been matched by Lynch East Main....The fan base is big and supports unconditionally and loves to travel...They do have a segment that is fickle and impatient, but most good programs do...HP makes a good point about PHS breaking the Golden Triangle dominance. Belfry initiated that in 1979 with a 14-8 win at Highlands that proved a mountain 3A team could complete and beat the best KY public school program of all-time.
In conclusion, for myself, it is a relative toss-up...I think PHS fans weigh way too heavy on a short stretch of time when PHS was dominant. That takes away nothing from what they accomplished during that time, but a certain amount of weight has to be given to a program as a whole...It will be much better for local football fans and for statewide perception if PHS can get back to state and consistently start competing with/ beating Belfry.

[Panther Thunder]

Putting the bias aside there really is a very cut and dry answer.

As it stands right now...as a sum of all the parts... it is Belfry and by a good bit.

Prior to the past decade it would have been Pikeville by and it wouldn't even be close. But you simply can't omit a decade from essentially a 50 year history since it is 20% of the time, and in that 20% increment Belfry has not only closed the gap but maintained an consistency of elite play the likes of which Pikeville had never enjoyed .

Pikeville gets bonus points for the fact that 40 years they went head to head with belfry being the smaller 1A school. In that case a tie has to favor the Panthers being as though they were a smaller school accustomed to playing smaller schools.

On the flip side, this also works against Pikeville in the fact their success on reaching the State Finals is almost entirely limited to one decade (despite still competing with 1A schools), whereas Belfry has been able to make runs in several decades.

I like HP's intangible point above to argue in Pikeville's favor..but I see that point and raise him Phillip Haywood, the State's Winningest Coach and a guy who himself has changed the shape of Mountain Football as well. I would also be remiss if I did not point out that the great Pikeville run under Howard was ended by Belfry.

It does bring up another interesting question:
If Coach Howard coached an extra decade where would Pikeville be now? Would they have ever had their lull over the past decade? Would they have another Championship?

So once again...as it stands now where you have to include Belfry's dominant run of the past decade it is Belfry by a solid margin. Yet, anyone who would try to argue it was even a tie prior to the 2000's is clearly not giving Pikeville credit as they were clearly the best PROGRAM overall until then.

Agree with a lot. I just hate to admit it. :biggrin:

Still well within striking range, however, if the Program can start to maintain high quality teams in this six class non-sense. Belfry, IMO, has been one of the biggest beneficiaries of the six class system thus far. Hazard is another one that took advantage, but hey, it is what we have and they did what they had to do. Hopefully, PHS can start capitalizing on the watered-down system.

The bolded is huge, IMO. It is crazy to think about that what if, because it would encompass almost 20 years of what if? I think it would have been awesome and Coach Howard would be up there in wins with Haywood. Could of had a Paterno/Bowden type rivalry right here in Pike County.

[Panther Thunder]

I think PHS fans weigh way too heavy on a short stretch of time when PHS was dominant. That takes away nothing from what they accomplished during that time, but a certain amount of weight has to be given to a program as a whole...

I think this gets overblown. Yes, PHS loves glorifying the 3-peat run and that era, but that is not all that the program has accomplished. Not even close. TWENTY Regional titles since 1972, State titles appearances in 1972, 1979, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1991. Two different spans of at least seven years between appearances in 40 years establishes pretty good longevity. Don't forget some of the great teams PHS had in the 1950's, specifically the 1955 team (Mythical State Champions). I will never include that with 1987, 1988, and 1989 until something more concrete is done to make that title more authentic. I hate how Alabama and Notre Dame and the such try to inflate numbers with unofficial titles. But, it is a team worth bringing up. Had there been a state tournament, maybe PHS is looking at a program with Finals appearances in the 1950's, 1970's (2), 1980's (3), and 1990's (1).

It is like me saying Belfry relies too much on the past 5 years. Well? Yeah, I would too. You can't exclude the best run a program has ever had.

I would like to know the big time Belfry roadblocks from 1972-2000 in the playoffs? I know Pikeville's all too well. Beechwood. If Beechwood is in the west, like the current set up, PHS is in the title game maybe as few as 5 to as many as 10 more times. Beechwood was that dominate over PHS. It still would not have resulted in Titles, I know, but something to at least mention. I do not know if Belfry had a dominate power in their respective classes that kept them from amassing more title game appearances.

As far as the bad losses, I'm sure I could dig through the books and find some bad close calls and some bad losses on an equal scale. You also can look to both programs, bad districts or not, and note the dominance of both. Pikeville cannot help the districts in which it is placed, but still rakes in the titles. Regional titles are also huge to football programs. Look at programs like Fairview that just picked up their first or Raceland still looking for their first with their history. They don't just get handed out and PHS amassed 50% of their Region's Titles over a 40-year span, nothing at which to scoff.

I will lean with Belfry about 55-60% right now, all being equal, but will note that it could change with a few seasons in either direction. The bottom line is it is great to have these two programs and the fans can step back and look at the other and have a mutual respect for the accomplishments of both. Here is to another 40 years of Pikeville and Belfry greatness and a continued respectful and hateful rivalry! :Thumbs:

[Buc-a-roo]

Belfry, IMO, has been one of the biggest beneficiaries of the six class system thus far.

I'm curious as to what you are basing that statement on?

Belfry has elevated their game, and some of the powers like Russell and Breathitt have slipped a bit, but the class they are in has not gotten weaker.

Notable teams no longer in Belfry's class under the new system: Owensboro Catholic, Middlesboro, Desales, Prestonsburg, Glasgow.

Notable teams now in Belfry's class under the new system: Central, Bell County, Bourbon County, Paducah Tilghman, South Warren, Mason County

If anything, the Pirates would have won more championships under the old 4 class system in my opinion. They did not benefit from the change.

The bigger teams that moved down in class, like Central, Tilghman, Bell County, etc. Those are the teams that benefitted from the class change, not Belfry.

[EKUAlum05]

I would like to know the big time Belfry roadblocks from 1972-2000 in the playoffs?

No one teas in particular...a bunch of historical programs and all-time teams

Highlands a couple times (both close games)
Ashland several times in their strongest era
Russell several times in their strongest era
Bell County a handful of times
Couple losses to Tim Couch and Leslie County
Handful of losses to Breathitt County
Couple losses to Pburg


Then this decade has been Belfry's answer to the Beechwood bugaboo...if Belfry did not have Central we are considering the Belfry run of the past decade as one of the greatest dynasties in KY history.

[EKUAlum05]

I'm curious as to what you are basing that statement on?

Belfry has elevated their game, and some of the powers like Russell and Breathitt have slipped a bit, but the class they are in has not gotten weaker.

Notable teams no longer in Belfry's class under the new system: Owensboro Catholic, Middlesboro, Desales, Prestonsburg, Glasgow.

Notable teams now in Belfry's class under the new system: Central, Bell County, Bourbon County, Paducah Tilghman, South Warren, Mason County

If anything, the Pirates would have won more championships under the old 4 class system in my opinion. They did not benefit from the change.

The bigger teams that moved down in class, like Central, Tilghman, Bell County, etc. Those are the teams that benefited from the class change, not Belfry.

To expound a bit look at these teams:

Ft. Campbell- Had a 3 peat in 2A and had become the premier program..moved to 3A and has been a 2nd or even 3rd tier program

Corbin- Was consistently a 2A Semi-Finalist and Top 5 team..until this season was a middle of the pack 3A team

Somerset- After moving down from 3A immediately became one of the strongest 2A programs in the State

Bell County- Was literally the class of 4A along with Boyle County before moving down, now can't get past the Regional Finals

[Panther Thunder]

I'm curious as to what you are basing that statement on?

Belfry has elevated their game, and some of the powers like Russell and Breathitt have slipped a bit, but the class they are in has not gotten weaker.

Notable teams no longer in Belfry's class under the new system: Owensboro Catholic, Middlesboro, Desales, Prestonsburg, Glasgow.

Notable teams now in Belfry's class under the new system: Central, Bell County, Bourbon County, Paducah Tilghman, South Warren, Mason County

If anything, the Pirates would have won more championships under the old 4 class system in my opinion. They did not benefit from the change.

The bigger teams that moved down in class, like Central, Tilghman, Bell County, etc. Those are the teams that benefitted from the class change, not Belfry.

Timing wasn't bad. I will give in to you on this, maybe I spoke too generally. With that said, I do think it still benefited the Pirates in ways other than wins. You see the AA programs you listed: Prestonsburg defeated Belfry in 2009 and 2010, '10 being a runner-up year.

But as you pointed out, Belfry has upped their level as well. I will give Central some credit for that, but I think you all got me on this one.


Have to go now, will look at the thread in a few.

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

Putting the bias aside there really is a very cut and dry answer.

As it stands right now...as a sum of all the parts... it is Belfry and by a good bit.

Prior to the past decade it would have been Pikeville by and it wouldn't even be close. But you simply can't omit a decade from essentially a 50 year history since it is 20% of the time, and in that 20% increment Belfry has not only closed the gap but maintained an consistency of elite play the likes of which Pikeville had never enjoyed .

Pikeville gets bonus points for the fact that 40 years they went head to head with belfry being the smaller 1A school. In that case a tie has to favor the Panthers being as though they were a smaller school accustomed to playing smaller schools.

On the flip side, this also works against Pikeville in the fact their success on reaching the State Finals is almost entirely limited to one decade (despite still competing with 1A schools), whereas Belfry has been able to make runs in several decades.

I like HP's intangible point above to argue in Pikeville's favor..but I see that point and raise him Phillip Haywood, the State's Winningest Coach and a guy who himself has changed the shape of Mountain Football as well. I would also be remiss if I did not point out that the great Pikeville run under Howard was ended by Belfry.

It does bring up another interesting question:
If Coach Howard coached an extra decade where would Pikeville be now? Would they have ever had their lull over the past decade? Would they have another Championship?

So once again...as it stands now where you have to include Belfry's dominant run of the past decade it is Belfry by a solid margin. Yet, anyone who would try to argue it was even a tie prior to the 2000's is clearly not giving Pikeville credit as they were clearly the best PROGRAM overall until then.

I've often wondered what wouldve happened had Coach Howard and/or Coach Allara has stayed until Coach Mac was ready to take over as Head Coach. I'm sure the program would've been better for it yes a few more trips to state would have been on the resume. Then the John Chapman drama wouldn't have happened, and hopefully the Jackson/ Copley era wouldn't have happened either, as a matter of fact I know it wouldn't. Would the lull have happened? Maybe. All programs go through down years. Belfry experienced this in the 1990s when they didnt win a region title during the entire decade and had a few losing seasons as well. Most Belfry fans won't openly admit this but There were more than a few folks over on Pond Creek calling for Haywood's head during that time. But that continuity is what saw them through those down years and came back better than before. Now that Coach Mac is back to stay its no accident that our program headed back in the right direction...

[bucslover68]

In the 70s and early 80s it was Russell. Those were the days of only one team going to the playoffs from each district. HP makes a good point, and basically what I meant by a fickle and impatient fan base, when he said that people were calling for Haywood's head. I think things have turned out OK and the fact that the main core of coaches, minus Steve Mickey, have stayed together all these years is a big plus.

[skully03]

One poster mentioned Pikeville is the best based on the number of state titles. One could make a better argument if we knew the total number of regional titles for both, how far they made it in the postseason and also the number of title appearances. One poster mentioned Pikeville had I think 20 regional titles from a certain year until now. Does anyone have Belfrys number of regionals. I'm just curious.

[Panther Thunder]

One poster mentioned Pikeville is the best based on the number of state titles. One could make a better argument if we knew the total number of regional titles for both, how far they made it in the postseason and also the number of title appearances. One poster mentioned Pikeville had I think 20 regional titles from a certain year until now. Does anyone have Belfrys number of regionals. I'm just curious.

It is posted at CAM, I will snap a pic of the sign Friday. I love that sign. I know some Alums hrew some money in and got our Regional titles added to the scoreboard, but it is impossible to see unless you are right there. The Belfry one is easily approachable for fans and with nice artwork.

[HAIL PIKEVILLE!]

It is posted at CAM, I will snap a pic of the sign Friday. I love that sign. I know some Alums hrew some money in and got our Regional titles added to the scoreboard, but it is impossible to see unless you are right there. The Belfry one is easily approachable for fans and with nice artwork.

I agree about the sign. I was the one that thought up that idea in the first place and brought it up to the booster club. But I wanted a big sign on the outside wall of the locker room so everyone could see it. I guess they got Community Trust to pay for and put it on the scoreboard, which I had no problem with. But couldn't CTB have shelled out a few extra bucks to make the letters legible from more than 10 feet away?!?!? Geez! Oh Well...I digress...

[PHSForever]

Putting the bias aside there really is a very cut and dry answer.

As it stands right now...as a sum of all the parts... it is Belfry and by a good bit.

Prior to the past decade it would have been Pikeville by and it wouldn't even be close. But you simply can't omit a decade from essentially a 50 year history since it is 20% of the time, and in that 20% increment Belfry has not only closed the gap but maintained an consistency of elite play the likes of which Pikeville had never enjoyed .

Pikeville gets bonus points for the fact that 40 years they went head to head with belfry being the smaller 1A school. In that case a tie has to favor the Panthers being as though they were a smaller school accustomed to playing smaller schools.

On the flip side, this also works against Pikeville in the fact their success on reaching the State Finals is almost entirely limited to one decade (despite still competing with 1A schools), whereas Belfry has been able to make runs in several decades.

I like HP's intangible point above to argue in Pikeville's favor..but I see that point and raise him Phillip Haywood, the State's Winningest Coach and a guy who himself has changed the shape of Mountain Football as well. I would also be remiss if I did not point out that the great Pikeville run under Howard was ended by Belfry.

It does bring up another interesting question:
If Coach Howard coached an extra decade where would Pikeville be now? Would they have ever had their lull over the past decade? Would they have another Championship?

So once again...as it stands now where you have to include Belfry's dominant run of the past decade it is Belfry by a solid margin. Yet, anyone who would try to argue it was even a tie prior to the 2000's is clearly not giving Pikeville credit as they were clearly the best PROGRAM overall until then.

Pikeville was AA in 72 and 79. Just pointing that out. Also AA a couple years in the 80's as I recall. Very early part.

[Buc-a-roo]

The sign at Belfry lists district titles, but not regional titles. There is about 30 district titles.

[Buc-a-roo]

I've often wondered what wouldve happened had Coach Howard and/or Coach Allara has stayed until Coach Mac was ready to take over as Head Coach. I'm sure the program would've been better for it yes a few more trips to state would have been on the resume. Then the John Chapman drama wouldn't have happened, and hopefully the Jackson/ Copley era wouldn't have happened either, as a matter of fact I know it wouldn't. Would the lull have happened? Maybe. All programs go through down years. Belfry experienced this in the 1990s when they didnt win a region title during the entire decade and had a few losing seasons as well. Most Belfry fans won't openly admit this but There were more than a few folks over on Pond Creek calling for Haywood's head during that time. But that continuity is what saw them through those down years and came back better than before. Now that Coach Mac is back to stay its no accident that our program headed back in the right direction...

The coaching carousel has to have been a negative for Pikeville's program and set them back quite a bit from where they should be. I agree that the program would be much further ahead of the curve at this point if Coach Mac would have been in place continuously instead being run off.

And for the record, 1993 was the only losing season I can remember for Belfry, but we don't like to talk about it. :igiveup:

[skully03]

It is posted at CAM, I will snap a pic of the sign Friday. I love that sign. I know some Alums hrew some money in and got our Regional titles added to the scoreboard, but it is impossible to see unless you are right there. The Belfry one is easily approachable for fans and with nice artwork.

I should be at the game also. I will take a look too. I thought it only listed district titles also.

[Belfry0304]

It does only list district titles. I have a photograph of the sign on my phone.
I know Belfry won region in 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 10, 11, and 12 though. I'm sure we could sit and figure it up. Obviously won region in 79, 85, 86 as well.

[skully03]

It does only list district titles. I have a photograph of the sign on my phone.
I know Belfry won region in 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 10, 11, and 12 though. I'm sure we could sit and figure it up. Obviously won region in 79, 85, 86 as well.

Yep your right 0304. I'm interested to find out just how many regionals they have won.

[Leonidas]

The coaching carousel has to have been a negative for Pikeville's program and set them back quite a bit from where they should be. I agree that the program would be much further ahead of the curve at this point if Coach Mac would have been in place continuously instead being run off.

And for the record, 1993 was the only losing season I can remember for Belfry, but we don't like to talk about it. :igiveup:

'94 was a .500 year (6-6), while the '95-'97 teams both posted double-degit win years. I can't recall what year it was but it seems like we had another close to .500 year in the late 90s, too.

To the question at hand...Pikeville wants to count titles as the only measure but lets face it, if Belfry were Single-A we'd have way more than 3 to date. If you count regional titles then Pikeville is ahead there as well, but there only formidable foe for several years was Hazard. Pikeville had the easiest road to the semi-finals in any class for several years.

I can see where everyone from each side is coming from, but I really feel like the Panther fan base is "reaching" for a single aspect of their programs history that would make them superior. We've even got into the hypothetical "what-ifs" to try to make the comparison closer.

IMO, the measuring stick is HEAD-to-HEAD and at the moment Belfry owns that category and therefore the title of Best All-Time Program.

[pirateforlife00]

Maybe this could help solve which program is the best all time team. We could use a scoring system. Head to head wins are worth 3 points. State championships are worth 6 points. State championship but a loss in the game is worth 5 points. State semi final appearance is worth 4 points. Regional final appearance is worth 3 points. Second round playoff appearance isworth 2 points and first round elimination is worth 1 point. If a team didn't make the playoffs that year then they don't receive a point. If anyone can gather these facts then I think we could prove the better program.

[Buc-a-roo]

Here is Belfry's record in the regional championship games since the playoff system began in 1959


Regional Champions = 17
66-67-68-76-79-85-86-89-03-04-05-06-07-08-10-11-12

7 in Class AA
10 in Class AAA

Regional Runner-Ups = 12
65-69-75-80-90-91-95-96-97-98-01-02

4 in Class AA
8 in Class AAA

[PHSForever]

Only thing I'd add to pirate for life's system is regional championships are 3 points, runner-up 2 points, district champs 1 point. Just making the playoffs shouldn't be rewarded with a point, given the tradition between the two schools. It is expected.

[jetpilot]

Who is this? :1::1::1:
Who is this? :1::1:

hh:

[EKUAlum05]

Only thing I'd add to pirate for life's system is regional championships are 3 points, runner-up 2 points, district champs 1 point. Just making the playoffs shouldn't be rewarded with a point, given the tradition between the two schools. It is expected.

If you are doing a point system you have to include intangibles as well...a program is more than just wins and losses.

Fan Support
Facilities
Feeder System
Boosters
Kids Who Go On to Play Collegiate Ball
Coaching Stability
Statewide Exposure (media, name recognition, scheduling)

[EKUAlum05]

Who is this? :1::1::1:
Who is this? :1::1:

hh:

Once again...you consider Ft. Knox an equal to Pikeville's program?

[jetpilot]

Once again...you consider Ft. Knox an equal to Pikeville's program?

What happened to Corbin? I'm certainly not going to mouth off to programs that have as many or more titles. And I'm not going to try to argue that beating a Class A school half the size of my school makes my program better. Or that my bleachers are better, or that we sell more hotdogs at the concession stand. When you are being judged by the football gods, they are going to want to know how many titles you won. When you start with the "but..but...but..." they will scoff at you...

BTW, do you think Scott County's program is better than Belfry's? Ballard's? What about PRP? Henry Clay?

[Leonidas]

Who is this? 31 wins against their rival with 18 losses:flame:

Who is this? 31 losses against their rival with 18 wins:HitWall:

You're welcome:welcome:

[EKUAlum05]

What happened to Corbin? I'm certainly not going to mouth off to programs that have as many or more titles. And I'm not going to try to argue that beating a Class A school half the size of my school makes my program better. Or that my bleachers are better, or that we sell more hotdogs at the concession stand. When you are being judged by the football gods, they are going to want to know how many titles you won. When you start with the "but..but...but..." they will scoff at you...

BTW, do you think Scott County's program is better than Belfry's? Ballard's? What about PRP? Henry Clay?

Of course not.. that lends itself to the point I am making. You say Championships are the only measure, I say that there are numerous things that go into it.

If it is only about titles then Fort Knox and Pikeville are equals... Corbin and Breathitt as well.... in fact Breathitt is the best program in EKY and Corbin is 2nd

Bell County is also interchangeable as a program with those perennial powerhouses Ludlow and Dayton based on your argument. Good thing East Ridge watered down the talent pool or Bell County would have to defend their program's honor against Elkhorn City fans in a similar thread.

Championships are a huge part of measuring a program.. but they can be the most deceiving stat to look at. Truth be told the most impressive part of Pikeville's resume is their runner-up years. Obviously the three peat is the crown jewel..but in HS Football all it takes is one wave of kids and athletes to go on an impressive tear, those runner-ups proved Pikeville was competing on an elite level over an extended period of time. Fort Campbell had a 3-peat with Antonio Andrews... then they moved to 3A and havent really even factored since.

[jetpilot]

^Then name one thing that makes Belfry's program better. And beating a Class A school isn't one. But that's what most Belfry fans want to hang their hat on. If you say Belfry is better because they have won head to head lately, I'm going to throw all the much bigger schools at you that would wax Belfry every year...

[EKUAlum05]

^Then name one thing that makes Belfry's program better. And beating a Class A school isn't one. But that's what most Belfry fans want to hang their hat on. If you say Belfry is better because they have won head to head lately, I'm going to throw all the much bigger schools at you that would wax Belfry every year...

Belfry is better because they have been playing at an elite level within their respective class for a more consistent AND longer period of time.

Period.