[Coach_Owens87]

Benchwarmer, I don't have to say a word and this thread is gonna go south fast, especially when some of the others from the other thread see this one. I said one thing, and it was true.

Coach_Owens, why don't you explain the pros and cons IN YOUR OWN WORDS... Don't be postin links to all these websites or copy and paste articles from newspapers or websites. Let's hear it.

Why dont you take your own advice and read some of the previous threads on this topic. I did put the pros and cons into my own words, I did something called research and used those sites to confirm what I was saying. You should try that sometine instead of spitting out non-sense.

[Coach Wooden]

there was a bumper sticker that i saw today dealing with MTR if says ban mining let them freeze to death with out the heat so many people look at mining from one aspect health issues but more people die in every other type of work than in mining and thos that look at it from an environment stand point only see the mines when they are being mined not after the mine is reclaimed. Benchwarmer your right people against it are from the flat lands and dont see that mining is one of the few ways of life here. They don't see that there are few chance to make a living in the mountains they just see that it destroys the land when in fact you have to reclaim the land to where it can be used and trees planted on a reclaimed strip mine grow faster then in regular soil. But mining is a bad thing to everyone that it doesnt help

Do you live where they are blasting very near your house and destroying it? Do you live where the floods are getting higher, faster than ever before threatening your property? I do.

[BlackcatAlum]

Here is a picture of StoneCrest in Prestonsburg...

Visit there website... www.stonecrestky.com

[phs1986]

Stone Crest is VERY nice!! Just an example of how mountain top removal can be resourceful!!

[vundy33]

My reply was a joke, I was just responding to redneck's crazy line that "Strip mining prevents forest fires". Thats a great way to show the pros of MTR.

I know it was a joke man, lol.

[vundy33]

Do you live where they are blasting very near your house and destroying it? Do you live where the floods are getting higher, faster than ever before threatening your property? I do.

I almost died when I was a baby from a boulder that come off of a mountain and hit me but I'm cool with it, it gave my dad a job.

[Redneck]

I love Stone Crest.

[Coach_Owens87]

I almost died when I was a baby from a boulder that come off of a mountain and hit me but I'm cool with it, it gave my dad a job.

So what you're saying is that people's lives are just sacrifices so people here can have decent jobs?

The sad thing is a couple of years ago a young boy was killed by a boulder that came rolling off of a surface mine. A couple dozer's had pushed the boulder over into a nearby valley and it rolled into the house killing the young boy. The mining company was fined $10,000, and then the appealed the fine. Seems like they really take responsibility for their actions.

I know mining offers jobs to a lot of people here, and it does give good wages, but I dont think it's worth the damage we are doing to this beautiful area. Polluted streams, polluted drinking water, increased flooding, Mudslides, busted roads from overloaded coal trucks, and many more issues are related to mining and MTR.

They say we need more land but only 2-5% of the mined land is being used, so I don't think land is needed.

Coal companies have never went out of their way to help this region, they only exploit us, this area is rich beyond belief in minerals, but a big portion of the population falls below the poverty line, it just isn't right. How can a land be so rich, and it's inhabitants struggle to get by when big shots in cities outside of the region are living in luxury?

And what happens when the price of coal falls? Our economy falls, and it falls hard. We are lead to believe that coal is the only thing this region is good for, and it's not. There is really no other job opportunities here besides mining, and it our own fault, we have let them monopolize the jobs in this area.

People here are afraid to speak out, everyone knows someone who works in the mines, and families are so close here that you don't want to speak out against them. And coal has been the major employer in this region for so long that people fear what would happen if it wasn't here, so they let the coal companies do what they please as long as they offer them jobs. They come into our region and destroy our land, and they hire us to do it. So many people say they love the mountains, that they love this land, but they have no problem blowing the crap out of it, just as long as they get paid. So thats why I think you hear criticism coming from outside of this region, people away from here don't have the fear and ties to coal companies as we do.

[phs1986]

Coal mining be it underground OR above ground, coal trucks, and coal sales is what is keeping our society HERE as a whole going. WHAT else is there HERE in this area that can provide for families? IMO there are wayyyyyyy tooooo many on checks now that are more than able to work. My dad worked in a underground mine much longer than he should have TO PROVIDE FOR HIS FAMILY!

Granted, damage is done by surface mining AND underground mining BUT if rules are followed and the EPA or MHSA would regulate that each abandoned mine site be reclaimed for future use and inspected yearly on their part, then I say to all coal miners above and underground..... WAY TO GO!!! Support your families, keep food on your tables, insurance on your children, give back to the economy of your area, and support our fine government with all those taxes you have to pay!!! I wouldn't care to bet you that my hubby paid more in taxes last year than many made!

I do think that old mine sites AND current ones do need to keep the enviornment as safe as possible. There are so many nice places that reclaimed sites can be used for: Examples: Stone Crest, Twin ?? (the race track I mentioned in an earlier post), Grants Branch Park.........

Sorry if I sounded as if I were on a rant but I can and DO see both sides to this argument. I do however feel VERY strongly about the jobs of this area and mining IMO is the #1 source of income for many, many families here in our part of the state.

[RavenBoy]

I own land in Eastern KY and I wish a coal mines would come threw and bring the whole mountain down. You can get money out of flat land but not a mountain.

[Coach_Owens87]

Coal mining be it underground OR above ground, coal trucks, and coal sales is what is keeping our society HERE as a whole going. WHAT else is there HERE in this area that can provide for families? IMO there are wayyyyyyy tooooo many on checks now that are more than able to work. My dad worked in a underground mine much longer than he should have TO PROVIDE FOR HIS FAMILY!

Granted, damage is done by surface mining AND underground mining BUT if rules are followed and the EPA or MHSA would regulate that each abandoned mine site be reclaimed for future use and inspected yearly on their part, then I say to all coal miners above and underground..... WAY TO GO!!! Support your families, keep food on your tables, insurance on your children, give back to the economy of your area, and support our fine government with all those taxes you have to pay!!! I wouldn't care to bet you that my hubby paid more in taxes last year than many made!

I do think that old mine sites AND current ones do need to keep the enviornment as safe as possible. There are so many nice places that reclaimed sites can be used for: Examples: Stone Crest, Twin ?? (the race track I mentioned in an earlier post), Grants Branch Park.........

Sorry if I sounded as if I were on a rant but I can and DO see both sides to this argument. I do however feel VERY strongly about the jobs of this area and mining IMO is the #1 source of income for many, many families here in our part of the state.

People being on checks has nothing to do with mining, it has more to do with the society of poverty here. It's so hard to get out of poverty if you are born into it. Many people do need help, but a lot of others use the system to their advantage, and their kids, if they have any, pick up on this habit, which just leads to another generation sucking off of the government. But poverty and the mining industry do have links to each other here.


No one is arguing that mining doesn't provide jobs, it does, and as you say it's really the only opportunity here. Which I find wrong, we need more to our economy than mining. Tourism is doing some good things, but I don't know how long people will want to come back when we keep tearing down the mountains that make this area beautiful.

Again I'm not against miners, my family has some very strong deep rooted tradition in the mines. I still have a lot of family members and friends that work both underground, and on surface mines.

As for the reclaimed land, some reclaimed sites do offer good things to this area, but it ticks me off when coal companies say we need more land when we don't use 95% of the land that has been mined. All mined land may not be suitable, or practical to put into use, but I don't think we need more flat land when we already have an estimated 14 million acres of land that has been mined. Thats more land than we could ever possibly use.

[thecavemaster]

Industry, with Congressional support from Congressmen who stood to benefit politically, years ago wanted to dam portions of the Grand Canyon. The Sierra Club (David Brower in particular) led a protest movement that stopped it. Progress (read "jobs" and "money") often means ecological damage. The "god" of America is money, cash flow, the green spot.... bow down, now, bow down. "Screw the Grand Canyon. Screw the trees. Screw the mountain tops and streams. Screw the ozone. Screw the polar bears." Each succeeding generation will reap this harvest.

[vundy33]

So what you're saying is that people's lives are just sacrifices so people here can have decent jobs?

The sad thing is a couple of years ago a young boy was killed by a boulder that came rolling off of a surface mine. A couple dozer's had pushed the boulder over into a nearby valley and it rolled into the house killing the young boy. The mining company was fined $10,000, and then the appealed the fine. Seems like they really take responsibility for their actions.

I know mining offers jobs to a lot of people here, and it does give good wages, but I dont think it's worth the damage we are doing to this beautiful area. Polluted streams, polluted drinking water, increased flooding, Mudslides, busted roads from overloaded coal trucks, and many more issues are related to mining and MTR.

They say we need more land but only 2-5% of the mined land is being used, so I don't think land is needed.

Coal companies have never went out of their way to help this region, they only exploit us, this area is rich beyond belief in minerals, but a big portion of the population falls below the poverty line, it just isn't right. How can a land be so rich, and it's inhabitants struggle to get by when big shots in cities outside of the region are living in luxury?

And what happens when the price of coal falls? Our economy falls, and it falls hard. We are lead to believe that coal is the only thing this region is good for, and it's not. There is really no other job opportunities here besides mining, and it our own fault, we have let them monopolize the jobs in this area.

People here are afraid to speak out, everyone knows someone who works in the mines, and families are so close here that you don't want to speak out against them. And coal has been the major employer in this region for so long that people fear what would happen if it wasn't here, so they let the coal companies do what they please as long as they offer them jobs. They come into our region and destroy our land, and they hire us to do it. So many people say they love the mountains, that they love this land, but they have no problem blowing the crap out of it, just as long as they get paid. So thats why I think you hear criticism coming from outside of this region, people away from here don't have the fear and ties to coal companies as we do.

No I was just talking about myself, not on anyone else's part. I support it and I'll support it for the rest of my life.

[Coach_Owens87]

No I was just talking about myself, not on anyone else's part. I support it and I'll support it for the rest of my life.

although that may only be your opinion, Your attitude about MTR is shared by a lot of people. People overlook the negative effects caused by MTR becuase it provides jobs for their family members.

[Redneck]

People overlook the negative effects caused by MTR becuase it provides jobs for their family members.

All my family members that mine coal are underground miners. You don't see many negetive effects take place on jobs with the bigger companies, it's the smaller companies that usually do alot of things the wrong way.

[vundy33]

although that may only be your opinion, Your attitude about MTR is shared by a lot of people. People overlook the negative effects caused by MTR becuase it provides jobs for their family members.

I'm not overlooking the negative effects, I just think the pros outweight the cons.

[Coach_Owens87]

All my family members that mine coal are underground miners. You don't see many negetive effects take place on jobs with the bigger companies, it's the smaller companies that usually do alot of things the wrong way.

You see negative effects on strip mines no matter how big the company is that performs them. The fines hurt smaller companies more than bigger ones though.

It doesn't matter if it's a multi-million dollar corporation, or a small town mine company, when you wipe out thousands of acres of pristine forest, bury the nearby streams, push all the waste into valleys, and then just plant grass to "reclaim" the land, negative effects are bound to happen.

[Coach_Owens87]

I'm not overlooking the negative effects, I just think the pros outweight the cons.

I think most people that are pro-mtr overlook the negative effects, becuase they never mention them, or just completely ignore them.

[Old School]

So what you're saying is that people's lives are just sacrifices so people here can have decent jobs?

The sad thing is a couple of years ago a young boy was killed by a boulder that came rolling off of a surface mine. A couple dozer's had pushed the boulder over into a nearby valley and it rolled into the house killing the young boy. The mining company was fined $10,000, and then the appealed the fine. Seems like they really take responsibility for their actions.

I know mining offers jobs to a lot of people here, and it does give good wages, but I dont think it's worth the damage we are doing to this beautiful area. Polluted streams, polluted drinking water, increased flooding, Mudslides, busted roads from overloaded coal trucks, and many more issues are related to mining and MTR.

They say we need more land but only 2-5% of the mined land is being used, so I don't think land is needed.

Coal companies have never went out of their way to help this region, they only exploit us, this area is rich beyond belief in minerals, but a big portion of the population falls below the poverty line, it just isn't right. How can a land be so rich, and it's inhabitants struggle to get by when big shots in cities outside of the region are living in luxury?

And what happens when the price of coal falls? Our economy falls, and it falls hard. We are lead to believe that coal is the only thing this region is good for, and it's not. There is really no other job opportunities here besides mining, and it our own fault, we have let them monopolize the jobs in this area.

People here are afraid to speak out, everyone knows someone who works in the mines, and families are so close here that you don't want to speak out against them. And coal has been the major employer in this region for so long that people fear what would happen if it wasn't here, so they let the coal companies do what they please as long as they offer them jobs. They come into our region and destroy our land, and they hire us to do it. So many people say they love the mountains, that they love this land, but they have no problem blowing the crap out of it, just as long as they get paid. So thats why I think you hear criticism coming from outside of this region, people away from here don't have the fear and ties to coal companies as we do.

I noticed that once again you brought up the accident involving the young boy in Virginia, now I have to admit that I have a hard time talking about death especially when it invloves children regardless if its accidental or due to medical conditions, but I would like to make a suggestion to you please for the sake of everyone concerned in this tragedy get the facts right. According to the Commonwealth of Virginia's Final Investigation Report states that a large rock measuring 30" inches X 24" inches X 16" inches, was dislodged during unaruthorized reconstruction of a mine access road and rolled 649' feet down a steep wooded hillside and into the house, but you stated in your post that a couple of dozers pushed the boulder over the hill into a valley and rolled into the house. The final report also states that one D-10 dozer was working in this area, now if your not familar with a D-10 dozer the size of the blade is roughly 7' feet high and 12' feet wide (I can't imagine 2 of these machines side by side pushing a 2 foot rock can you) and no valley was mentioned in this report. The company was fined $15,000 (not $10,000 as you stated in your post) for three violations which was the maximum allowed by Virginia law at the time of the accident, and I have yet to find any information if the fines were appealed or not, besides what difference does it make if the fines were appealed or not the money goes to the state of Virginia.

One newspaper reported that the faimly reached a multi-million dollar settlement with the coal company.

I agree the economy in this area goes as the coal industry does, but how is that fault of the Coal Companies? Coal companies have never stopped anyone form moving other industries into the area, I would have to blame the local and state officals over the years for not working hard enough to bring others into this region.

[phs1986]

[quote=Coach_Owens87]You see negative effects on strip mines no matter how big the company is that performs them. The fines hurt smaller companies more than bigger ones though.

It doesn't matter if it's a multi-million dollar corporation, or a small town mine company, when you wipe out thousands of acres of pristine forest, bury the nearby streams, push all the waste into valleys, and then just plant grass to "reclaim" the land, negative effects are bound to happen.[/quote]


Well... there is MUCH more to reclaiming landing than just "planting grass".
First, removal of any and all contaminated materials. Second, ensure wildlife safety in the area about to be reclaimed. Third, prepare for any water sources for the wildlife that will be living/or already lives in the area. Then, prepare the land for hydroseeding and then hydroseed it to specifications. Finally, plant trees, brush, or anything required and or that will adapt to the area for beautification. The land is monitored on a somewhat regular basis (weekly) to ensure that the trees, grass, and ponds are as expected.

There are negative effects as you have stated over and over but if the reclaimation of the land is done properly and the land recultivated so that wildlife uses it as its habitat IMO there has been as much good come from the land as bad. Agreed..... there is damage to our hills and mountains. BUT..... would the good lord have put them there if they were not to be used as a resource? Many, many men have made a good living for their families between these old mountains...... I thank god that he gave them to us here in our little nook of the world.

[Redneck]

You see negative effects on strip mines no matter how big the company is that performs them. The fines hurt smaller companies more than bigger ones though.

It doesn't matter if it's a multi-million dollar corporation, or a small town mine company, when you wipe out thousands of acres of pristine forest, bury the nearby streams, push all the waste into valleys, and then just plant grass to "reclaim" the land, negative effects are bound to happen.

Go to WV and check out some of Massey Energy's jobs.

[phs1986]

I did it for ya... here is some information from Massey Energy......


In the spring of 2001, the Community of Craigsville, WV found itself with the remnants of a small lake that had been drained due to concerns that the dam might break. The original dam was constructed in the early eighties using material that over time had become unstable. Alex Energy, a Massey subsidiary, began construction of a new dam and lake in the Spring of 2001 and Indian Lake was completed by that fall. The dam is state-of-the-art and includes a fully grouted spill way along with a drain. The lake has been stocked and landscaped, providing local residents the opportunity to enjoy walking trails, fishing and other outdoor activities.


[Image: http://www.masseyenergyco.com/images/EnvRock1.gif]




Massey Energy purchased the land and donated it to the West Virginia Department of Natural Resources for the construction of the Earl Ray Tomblin Convention Center. The center is a part of the Chief Logan State Park in Logan, WV. [Image: http://www.masseyenergyco.com/Images/EnvConvCtr1.gif]



Massey is working with the Mingo County Redevelopment Authority to provide the Mingo and Logan County area with a state-of-the-art dirt racetrack. The dirt track is a one-half mile oval located on a reclaimed portion of Massey’s North Surface Mine between Logan and Williamson, West Virginia. The total area of the complex will be approximately 55 acres, including parking and access.

[Image: http://www.masseyenergyco.com/images/CommMinImg1.jpg]



The Elk Run dome is a first-of-its-kind air supported vinyl building to cover coal stockpiles, preventing coal dust from reaching nearby communities. The building is supported only by air pressure supplied by an electric blower. The blower also supplies fresh air while equipment is operating inside the facility. It is equipped with two additional back-up blowers and a back-up power generator to insure that no mechanical failure or power outage will cause the dome to deflate. The dome is the size of several football fields.

[Image: http://www.masseyenergyco.com/Images/ElkDomeImgs.gif]

[Redneck]

The Elk Run Dome is huge, drive by it quite a bit goin to Edwight.

We have a contract with Massey Energy, well my dad does. We sell them all of their drill steel, top and bottom subs, rotary deck bushings, and bit rings. I deliver to all the Massey surface jobs often, when I'm not busy with my own accounts in EKY or Alabama (only go there once every three weeks.)

[Coach_Owens87]

I did it for ya... here is some information from Massey Energy......


In the spring of 2001, the Community of Craigsville, WV found itself with the remnants of a small lake that had been drained due to concerns that the dam might break. The original dam was constructed in the early eighties using material that over time had become unstable. Alex Energy, a Massey subsidiary, began construction of a new dam and lake in the Spring of 2001 and Indian Lake was completed by that fall. The dam is state-of-the-art and includes a fully grouted spill way along with a drain. The lake has been stocked and landscaped, providing local residents the opportunity to enjoy walking trails, fishing and other outdoor activities.


[Image: http://www.masseyenergyco.com/images/EnvRock1.gif]




Massey Energy purchased the land and donated it to the West Virginia Department of Natural Resources for the construction of the Earl Ray Tomblin Convention Center. The center is a part of the Chief Logan State Park in Logan, WV. [Image: http://www.masseyenergyco.com/Images/EnvConvCtr1.gif]



Massey is working with the Mingo County Redevelopment Authority to provide the Mingo and Logan County area with a state-of-the-art dirt racetrack. The dirt track is a one-half mile oval located on a reclaimed portion of Massey’s North Surface Mine between Logan and Williamson, West Virginia. The total area of the complex will be approximately 55 acres, including parking and access.

[Image: http://www.masseyenergyco.com/images/CommMinImg1.jpg]



The Elk Run dome is a first-of-its-kind air supported vinyl building to cover coal stockpiles, preventing coal dust from reaching nearby communities. The building is supported only by air pressure supplied by an electric blower. The blower also supplies fresh air while equipment is operating inside the facility. It is equipped with two additional back-up blowers and a back-up power generator to insure that no mechanical failure or power outage will cause the dome to deflate. The dome is the size of several football fields.

[Image: http://www.masseyenergyco.com/Images/ElkDomeImgs.gif]

It's great that they done this, but it doesn't make up for their MTR practices or other harms they have done to the environment.

Massey Energy recently had to pay a 20 million dollar civil law suit for their Clean water act violations in West Virginia and Kentucky. That was the largest civil penalty ever for water permit violations.

Here is an excerpt from the EPA about this lawsuit.

In a complaint filed on May 10, 2007, the government alleged that Massey violated its Clean Water Act permits more than 4,500 times between January 2000 and December 2006. The complaint alleged that Massey discharged excess amounts of metals, sediment, and acid mine drainage into hundreds of rivers and streams in West Virginia and Kentucky. Many of the pollutants were discharged in amounts 40 percent or more than allowed. Some pollutants were discharged at levels more than 10 times over the permit limits.

The complaint also alleged that Massey spilled large amounts of slurry, which is waste containing metals and sediment, into local waterways numerous times. Sediment can clog streams and harm fish habitats. The spills occurred as a result of failures in the processing, storage, and transportation of coal slurry.

In addition to the penalty, Massey will invest approximately $10 million to develop and implement a set of procedures to prevent future violations. Massey will implement an innovative electronic tracking system that allows the company to quickly address compliance problems and correct any violations of permit limits. This measure fits within a comprehensive environmental compliance program that Massey has agreed to implement, which includes in-depth internal and third-party audits, employee training, and a plan to prevent future slurry spills.

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf...enDocument

So they violated the law 4,500 hundred times, polluted our streams, rivers and drinking water, but they can put in a dirt track and things are ok? For every good thing they've done, I can show you something bad.

I like that Massey took responsibility and has agreed to change their ways, but it still doesn't take back the damage already done to our mountains and streams.

Massey was forced to do good things, which is probably why they are doing these things in Logan County. It's not becuase they are so generous, they just have to do these things.

So I guess this all goes into rednecks perspective that Big companies dont do bad things. lol, it sure looks that way.

[Redneck]

Do you ever post in any other forums???

[Coach_Owens87]

Do you ever post in any other forums???

Im a frequent poster on the college sports forum, video game forum, and general discussions, but I have the most fun here.

[Coach_Owens87]

I dont know how I posted the same thread twice, but if someone could remove one of those I would appreciate it.

[phs1986]

I dont know how I posted the same thread twice, but if someone could remove one of those I would appreciate it.

took care of the double post for ya...

I also want to comment on the Massey subject..... GRANTED ..... they have done some damage... BUT due to the size of their jobs(mine sites and operational facilities) they seem to focused on quite often for wrong doings. They have the "capita" per say to undo or shall I say.... correct and FUND some future safety procedures and have if I must say have already started doing so. Believe me when I tell you that there are MSHA officials on a Massey site somewhere every day of the week! As far as the dirt track comment....I don't think I'll even go there.....hh: SO... with that being said......

[Coach_Owens87]

took care of the double post for ya...

I also want to comment on the Massey subject..... GRANTED ..... they have done some damage... BUT due to the size of their jobs(mine sites and operational facilities) they seem to focused on quite often for wrong doings. They have the "capita" per say to undo or shall I say.... correct and FUND some future safety procedures and have if I must say have already started doing so. Believe me when I tell you that there are MSHA officials on a Massey site somewhere every day of the week! As far as the dirt track comment....I don't think I'll even go there.....hh: SO... with that being said......

I have very little faith in anything the MSHA does, or the EPA for that matter. So them being on a site everyday doesn't mean anything to me.

To say they have done some damage is being very conservative, they broke the law 4,500 times in a six year span, and thats just in water violations. The things they are doing to correct their wrongdoings in no way make up for the damage done to the environment. Dirt tracks, and jobs are temporary things compared to the long term damage they have done to the environment.

[Coach_Owens87]

One thing that the threads on this topic have shown is that there is a distinct line between people who support and oppose MTR. The people who support it either work in the mines, have family who do, or are politicians who get rich from coal companies. Almost everyone else opposes it, well at least the ones who know about it. A lot of people in this country have no clue what is going on in this region.

65% of people oppose the Bush plan to ease environmental regulations against MTR, and 88% of the country thinks we should look to other fuel sources before resorting to more mining. It feels good to know that im not in the minority.

http://www.enn.com/ecosystems/article/23024

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/storie...300&EDATE=



And what really makes me sick is that Coal Companies already have a clear path to destroy Appalachia, and some people are trying to make it easier for this to happen. But yet people still say that the environmental damage is minimal, and the economic benefits outweigh the negative effects, when most evidence points to the contrary. I guess people are ok with selling off our land to the highest bidder, just as long as they offer us jobs while they destroy it.