[Old Henry Man]

I have been around Football and Kids for many years, and this seems to be a major question.
How much should be tolerated?
Should a coach require more than the School District?

I say these are Kids between the ages of 13-18 years of ages. I do believe in 2nd chances. Some sports have Zero Tolerance and some do not care.
I have always worked under a rule "If the Principle says he can play, then he can play."

[Strikeout King]

If a kid misses so many school days and/or so many practices then no he shouldn't get to play in the next game.

If a coach sit's the kid over something else then the Principal/AD should have the last say on whether or not the kid get's to play


Is that what you was asking?

[Real Badman]

It's just depending on the personality of the coach. A younger coach might tolerate more then an older guy could.

[toussaints]

It's just depending on the personality of the coach. A younger coach might tolerate more then an older guy could.

I agree, it depends on the coach's personality and what sport it is. I'm more strict coaching football than track & field.

I like to keep things fun and loose, but at the same time, I make sure my guys know where the limit is and they know that their ultimately responsible for their actions, so when they cross the line, they know my punishment is fair, whether they like it or not.

Some people think I'm not strict enough, some think I can be too strict so it doesn't work for everybody. But that's who I am, I'm their coach, not their teacher, but not their friend either.

[Fly Like a Duck]

At many places, especially small schools, therenisna fine, fine line between installing discipline and trying not to cut your own throat in the process.

For example, offseason attendance, I know of a couple top tier programs throughout the state that if it weren't for allowing weightlifting as an in school elective for their athletes (football players in this case), then their off season attendance would be 50% at best (and, that's just counting kids who aren't involved with winter and/or spring sports).

Now, with saying that, I know programs who aren't considered top tier (.500 types) and don't have in class weightlifting, yet make their players attend x amount of workouts in the off season, or they can't play. To which my question is,does the school who is top tier ( allowing their student athletes the opportunity to in school weightlifting) really have a program with that much more discipline than the team down the road who doesn't allow it, yet struggles with off season attendance in after school attendance?

[sstack]

At many places, especially small schools, therenisna fine, fine line between installing discipline and trying not to cut your own throat in the process.

For example, offseason attendance, I know of a couple top tier programs throughout the state that if it weren't for allowing weightlifting as an in school elective for their athletes (football players in this case), then their off season attendance would be 50% at best (and, that's just counting kids who aren't involved with winter and/or spring sports).

Now, with saying that, I know programs who aren't considered top tier (.500 types) and don't have in class weightlifting, yet make their players attend x amount of workouts in the off season, or they can't play. To which my question is,does the school who is top tier ( allowing their student athletes the opportunity to in school weightlifting) really have a program with that much more discipline than the team down the road who doesn't allow it, yet struggles with off season attendance in after school attendance?

It drives me crazy when I hear about schools offering in school elective weight lifting class. It is no wonder much of the states schools rank so low academically. I love sports and think it is great for kids to be involved with, but academic classes need to be taken during school hours and sports before or after school. Highlands is a top tier program whose kids take college prep courses during school hours and lift before or after school. As a parent of a top KY athlete, I can not believe any parent would put sports ahead of academics; what a disadvantage your are doing to your child by not preparing them the best academically as possible. I still say part of the reason HHS is so good in sports is they have smart kids who are able and willing to be coached. The same could be said for St X, Trinity, Beechwood, Cov Cath.

[Ike Cooter]

It drives me crazy when I hear about schools offering in school elective weight lifting class. It is no wonder much of the states schools rank so low academically. I love sports and think it is great for kids to be involved with, but academic classes need to be taken during school hours and sports before or after school. Highlands is a top tier program whose kids take college prep courses during school hours and lift before or after school. As a parent of a top KY athlete, I can not believe any parent would put sports ahead of academics; what a disadvantage your are doing to your child by not preparing them the best academically as possible. I still say part of the reason HHS is so good in sports is they have smart kids who are able and willing to be coached. The same could be said for St X, Trinity, Beechwood, Cov Cath.

Love Love Love your comment. Teams are not allowed to practice soccer, basketball, baseball, volleyball, softball or any other "extra curricular" activity during school hours so why should they be allowed to do weight traing durning class hours. I know kids who take this particular class all 4 years of high school. If a kid wants to participate in extra curicular activities then they should be willing to put in the time before or after school.

I also agree that smart athletes excel more than athletic athletes. Parents are crippling their kids putting sports before academics. I'm not a stat person but I would bet the farm that the number of high school athletes that participate in college athletics are less than 10% so why put so much emphasis on sports.

I would rate your post close, if not the top, of all that I have read on this site..:Thumbs:

[Old Henry Man]

What if a Senior to be, that has never been in trouble, shows up every time the weight room is open, gets caught drinking beer, the last day of school at a party.
Should the young man be kicked off, or just let the coach handle it.

[lchsalumnus]

It drives me crazy when I hear about schools offering in school elective weight lifting class. It is no wonder much of the states schools rank so low academically. I love sports and think it is great for kids to be involved with, but academic classes need to be taken during school hours and sports before or after school. Highlands is a top tier program whose kids take college prep courses during school hours and lift before or after school. As a parent of a top KY athlete, I can not believe any parent would put sports ahead of academics; what a disadvantage your are doing to your child by not preparing them the best academically as possible. I still say part of the reason HHS is so good in sports is they have smart kids who are able and willing to be coached. The same could be said for St X, Trinity, Beechwood, Cov Cath.

what is wrong with weightlifting class? nothing. schools offer advanced levels of history, math, and science classes for those students who are heavily in to academics and all that. what about the player who is a marginal student, a C+ student at best. Should he take the calculus and trig classes? what if he is a great athlete and COULD get in to college with an athletic scholarship, whereas he would not if it depended completely on his academics?

my point is that these type of classes (ex. weightlifting) serve a purpose, just like the upper level math and science. preparing for the next level, whether it be academics or athletics. it is ONE CLASS. it doesn't fill up a schedule.

and for discipline, when the principal (it is not "principle") steps in and says "he can play" then you have a problem. in my opinion no principal should ever dictate who is eligible and who is not. the coach should decide. if he wants to add more to the school's conduct codes, that is his decision. the players should respect the coach and themselves enough to follow the coach's code of conduct.

[lchsalumnus]

What if a Senior to be, that has never been in trouble, shows up every time the weight room is open, gets caught drinking beer, the last day of school at a party.
Should the young man be kicked off, or just let the coach handle it.

simple. kick the kid off the team. if he doesn't understand that it is the LAW, not only a rule, then he doesn't deserve to be on the team and has let his team down big time.

[Bob Seger]

what is wrong with weightlifting class? nothing. schools offer advanced levels of history, math, and science classes for those students who are heavily in to academics and all that. what about the player who is a marginal student, a C+ student at best. Should he take the calculus and trig classes? what if he is a great athlete and COULD get in to college with an athletic scholarship, whereas he would not if it depended completely on his academics?
my point is that these type of classes (ex. weightlifting) serve a purpose, just like the upper level math and science. preparing for the next level, whether it be academics or athletics. it is ONE CLASS. it doesn't fill up a schedule.

and for discipline, when the principal (it is not "principle") steps in and says "he can play" then you have a problem. in my opinion no principal should ever dictate who is eligible and who is not. the coach should decide. if he wants to add more to the school's conduct codes, that is his decision. the players should respect the coach and themselves enough to follow the coach's code of conduct.

IMO, that line of thinking is directly what leads to the reasoning why so many flunk out when they get to college. I would be safe in saying that when it comes to eastern Kentuckians, 9 out of every 10 that go to college to play end up dropping out, flunk out , etc. They for the most part are simply not prepared for what awaits them at that level trying to balance an academic/athletic schedule. It's tough. No wait, it's beyond tough. It's brutal. By the time they figure out they're in over their heads , it's too late.


I hardly think that one hour a day in the weight room is going to make that much difference in whether a kid makes it to the next level or not. IMO, college athletics are not really worth the time when it all comes down to it to begin with. It is by far the most highly over rated experience I can think of and the most detrimental to a kid acheiving the ultimate goal of supporting himself and a family. Again, this coming from a parent that had two go through it.

[Old Henry Man]

simple. kick the kid off the team. if he doesn't understand that it is the LAW, not only a rule, then he doesn't deserve to be on the team and has let his team down big time.

I take it that you are not a players first kind of person.
Not all people were perfect at 17

[Fly Like a Duck]

It drives me crazy when I hear about schools offering in school elective weight lifting class. It is no wonder much of the states schools rank so low academically. I love sports and think it is great for kids to be involved with, but academic classes need to be taken during school hours and sports before or after school. Highlands is a top tier program whose kids take college prep courses during school hours and lift before or after school. As a parent of a top KY athlete, I can not believe any parent would put sports ahead of academics; what a disadvantage your are doing to your child by not preparing them the best academically as possible. I still say part of the reason HHS is so good in sports is they have smart kids who are able and willing to be coached. The same could be said for St X, Trinity, Beechwood, Cov Cath.

Go to alabama, Texas, Ohio, tennessee and several other states and not only will you find schools who allow weightlifting as an elective in the masses, but many of those states have schools that offer athletic periods the last part of the day that are specific to each sport(s).

Taking weighifting as an elective is nomore bogus than many other electives out there that are offered. Quit living in never never land.

[Fly Like a Duck]

Love Love Love your comment. Teams are not allowed to practice soccer, basketball, baseball, volleyball, softball or any other "extra curricular" activity during school hours so why should they be allowed to do weight traing durning class hours. I know kids who take this particular class all 4 years of high school. If a kid wants to participate in extra curicular activities then they should be willing to put in the time before or after school.

I also agree that smart athletes excel more than athletic athletes. Parents are crippling their kids putting sports before academics. I'm not a stat person but I would bet the farm that the number of high school athletes that participate in college athletics are less than 10% so why put so much emphasis on sports.

I would rate your post close, if not the top, of all that I have read on this site..:Thumbs:

Weight training is offered to all student-athletes, boys and girls.

Also, I know at most schools that offers weightlifting, it's a privilege to take it. You must meet particular standards in your core classes before you are allowed to take it, which I totally agree with, but is contradicting as hell, because I don't see kids in FFA who have to meet those same requirements in order to take AG elective classes.

Personally, I think weight lifting and excercise physiology type classes need to be offered much more. Our health awareness in many kids and their families suck as much as their education levels in reading, writing and math.

....and, quite honestly, I don't know which is worse when it gets down to it.

[IAM22]

It drives me crazy when I hear about schools offering in school elective weight lifting class. It is no wonder much of the states schools rank so low academically. I love sports and think it is great for kids to be involved with, but academic classes need to be taken during school hours and sports before or after school. Highlands is a top tier program whose kids take college prep courses during school hours and lift before or after school. As a parent of a top KY athlete, I can not believe any parent would put sports ahead of academics; what a disadvantage your are doing to your child by not preparing them the best academically as possible. I still say part of the reason HHS is so good in sports is they have smart kids who are able and willing to be coached. The same could be said for St X, Trinity, Beechwood, Cov Cath.

Amen brother!!

[IAM22]

what is wrong with weightlifting class? nothing. schools offer advanced levels of history, math, and science classes for those students who are heavily in to academics and all that. what about the player who is a marginal student, a C+ student at best. Should he take the calculus and trig classes? what if he is a great athlete and COULD get in to college with an athletic scholarship, whereas he would not if it depended completely on his academics?

my point is that these type of classes (ex. weightlifting) serve a purpose, just like the upper level math and science. preparing for the next level, whether it be academics or athletics. it is ONE CLASS. it doesn't fill up a schedule.

and for discipline, when the principal (it is not "principle") steps in and says "he can play" then you have a problem. in my opinion no principal should ever dictate who is eligible and who is not. the coach should decide. if he wants to add more to the school's conduct codes, that is his decision. the players should respect the coach and themselves enough to follow the coach's code of conduct.

The last thing that person should be taking is anything but academic classes!

[Tica]

If my son is or was trying to get a football scholarship and he had a choice as an elective between choir, guitar, personal finance or advanced weight lifting with a certified lift trainer, there is not a bit of doubt with me which class he would take and I would not be a bit ashamed to say he took it.

As for discipline - there are loose ships and tight ships. You can discipline differently at Trinity or Highlands because there are 3-4 kids ready and able to step up if someone gets booted. It's different at a smaller school. As much as we want to say rules are black and white, discipline is increasingly a world of grey scales. I think in extreme cases, coaches who mete severe sanctions to players should let the team vote on a secret ballot if they want a suspended player to return to the team. A good coach will know his players, the parents, his community and what techniques to use. What works at St. X would not necessarily be the right mix at Louisville Central or Mayfield. Discipline that worked for Bear Bryant in 1965 would not work for Nick Saban today

[Ike Cooter]

If my son is or was trying to get a football scholarship and he had a choice as an elective between choir, guitar, personal finance or advanced weight lifting with a certified lift trainer, there is not a bit of doubt with me which class he would take and I would not be a bit ashamed to say he took it.

As for discipline - there are loose ships and tight ships. You can discipline differently at Trinity or Highlands because there are 3-4 kids ready and able to step up if someone gets booted. It's different at a smaller school. As much as we want to say rules are black and white, discipline is increasingly a world of grey scales. I think in extreme cases, coaches who mete severe sanctions to players should let the team vote on a secret ballot if they want a suspended player to return to the team. A good coach will know his players, the parents, his community and what techniques to use. What works at St. X would not necessarily be the right mix at Louisville Central or Mayfield. Discipline that worked for Bear Bryant in 1965 would not work for Nick Saban today

Kids who are good enough to "excel" not just sign with a college are more often than not the ones who are academic first students. Whats wrong with a kid learning finance, business managment or home economics rather than lifting weights. Again schools should be academics first athletics second. Thats why its called extra curicular activities. And again I would bet the farm that the number of high school athletes that participate in college athletics is less than 10% so why push them towards classes which does nothing to prepare them for the future unless they are going to be certified personal trainers. Which again I'm sure the percentage of CPT's is less than 2%. I guarantee if you ask any coach he will stress academics first whether he means it or not is unknow.....

[Fly Like a Duck]

Ike,

Do you have the same name on bluegrassacademics.com, bluegrassfinance.com, bluegrassbusinessmanagement.com, too?

Should academics be first in school? You dang right. Bar none. Without question. But will you and others out there please cut the crap about how having a weightlifting class offered to student athletes is going to be so detrimental to our school systems. Sounds like a bunch of women talking.

[Fly Like a Duck]

If my son is or was trying to get a football scholarship and he had a choice as an elective between choir, guitar, personal finance or advanced weight lifting with a certified lift trainer, there is not a bit of doubt with me which class he would take and I would not be a bit ashamed to say he took it.

As for discipline - there are loose ships and tight ships. You can discipline differently at Trinity or Highlands because there are 3-4 kids ready and able to step up if someone gets booted. It's different at a smaller school. As much as we want to say rules are black and white, discipline is increasingly a world of grey scales. I think in extreme cases, coaches who mete severe sanctions to players should let the team vote on a secret ballot if they want a suspended player to return to the team. A good coach will know his players, the parents, his community and what techniques to use. What works at St. X would not necessarily be the right mix at Louisville Central or Mayfield. Discipline that worked for Bear Bryant in 1965 would not work for Nick Saban today

You said it all.

[BoondockSaint]

Education should promote sound body & mind.

How important is being book smart if you're a prime candidate for a heart attack at the time of your high school graduation. Our kids are fatter than they've ever been in any other generation.

EVERY kid should have 4 years of some type of physical education, no 13 years counting kindergarten.

[IAM22]

If my son is or was trying to get a football scholarship and he had a choice as an elective between choir, guitar, personal finance or advanced weight lifting with a certified lift trainer, there is not a bit of doubt with me which class he would take and I would not be a bit ashamed to say he took it.

As for discipline - there are loose ships and tight ships. You can discipline differently at Trinity or Highlands because there are 3-4 kids ready and able to step up if someone gets booted. It's different at a smaller school. As much as we want to say rules are black and white, discipline is increasingly a world of grey scales. I think in extreme cases, coaches who mete severe sanctions to players should let the team vote on a secret ballot if they want a suspended player to return to the team. A good coach will know his players, the parents, his community and what techniques to use. What works at St. X would not necessarily be the right mix at Louisville Central or Mayfield. Discipline that worked for Bear Bryant in 1965 would not work for Nick Saban today

Personally I think that personal finance should be MANDATORY to graduate. Way to many parents are clueless about money, so where are these kids going to learn about it? I feel it is better to learn it the easy way instead of finding out things the hard way. For first generation personal finance students could end up educating their parents, who do not have the basic financial skills to make intelligent money decisions. It will only help everyone involved.

Parents who like taking time away from academics when it is available says it all about the mindset of too many!! The weightlifting can be done before or after school. I would bet that the "certified lift trainer" is a coach and is available before and after as well.

A secret ballot vote should never take place!! Kids, heck even adults, will tend to vote with their hearts. It is the job of the coach to make the decision. If he doesn't have enough balls to make the decision for himself and would rather rely on the opinions of 9th to 12th graders they need to get out of the coaching and teaching world.

Part of taking that job, of HC, is having to take responsibility for the team and actions of others, and be a consistent leader who sets an example to everyone in the community, school, football team, and each student. I listed the responsibilities in order of importance.

One important thing to add is that I want a coach to be consistent on discipline issues.

[sstack]

Go to alabama, Texas, Ohio, tennessee and several other states and not only will you find schools who allow weightlifting as an elective in the masses, but many of those states have schools that offer athletic periods the last part of the day that are specific to each sport(s).

Taking weighifting as an elective is nomore bogus than many other electives out there that are offered. Quit living in never never land.

I do not live in never never land, I live in an area where parents stress education from birth, demand excellent teachers and excellent college prepratory education. Just because parts of other states may do it does not make it right. Kids in our area begin talking about where they are going to go to college in 6th grade or younger; it is just considered a normal part of life. Our kids think everyone in our state thinks this way too, it is only later in life when we/they figure out that the whole state does not value an education the way we do.

[sstack]

Education should promote sound body & mind.

How important is being book smart if you're a prime candidate for a heart attack at the time of your high school graduation. Our kids are fatter than they've ever been in any other generation.

EVERY kid should have 4 years of some type of physical education, no 13 years counting kindergarten.

You are talking about kids who are involved in sports, so they are getting physical activity, making your point meaningless. If you where talking about kids whose only activity is walking from the car into school, then your point might hold water. If you are talking about someone who like my daughter, who runs 4-7 miles, followed by 1 1/2 hour soccer practice, mandatory PE is ridiculous. My daughter has always said she wants and is going to be a professional athlete. I tell her that is great, but get an education,and a backup plan, because it is very small % of people who can live that dream. She is preparing herself for a life after her dream or for if it does not happen.

And book smarts will help the prime candidate for heart attack, because he will be able to get a better job that allows for better doctors, can afford a personel trainer , can afford a home gym, can afford a healthier diet, ect.

[Fly Like a Duck]

I do not live in never never land, I live in an area where parents stress education from birth, demand excellent teachers and excellent college prepratory education. Just because parts of other states may do it does not make it right. Kids in our area begin talking about where they are going to go to college in 6th grade or younger; it is just considered a normal part of life. Our kids think everyone in our state thinks this way too, it is only later in life when we/they figure out that the whole state does not value an education the way we do.

You don't stress academics anymore to your kids than my parents did to me and my siblings, nor more than my wife and I will to our kids.

I had weightlifting as an elective from my sophomore year on. My wife had it at her school from her sophomore year on as a tennis/soccer player. She graduated Magna Cum Laude in her Busniess department, has since earned a Master's and while I was knocking the doors down on the top academic awards, I have a Master's and just a few hours from obtaining a Rank 1.

Those weightlifting classes was so detrimental to us I tell you.

My intentions on listing our education wasnt meant to get in a pissing contest, but don't think that what you and others preach to your kids, aren't the same educational values that are being preached elsewhere. On the other hand, there are many places...should I say less concentrated areas of schools where kids don't understand the value of an education and that starts at home.

[Ike Cooter]

You don't stress academics anymore to your kids than my parents did to me and my siblings, nor more than my wife and I will to our kids.

I had weightlifting as an elective from my sophomore year on. My wife had it at her school from her sophomore year on as a tennis/soccer player. She graduated Magna Cum Laude in her Busniess department, has since earned a Master's and while I was knocking the doors down on the top academic awards, I have a Master's and just a few hours from obtaining a Rank 1.

Those weightlifting classes was so detrimental to us I tell you.

My intentions on listing our education wasnt meant to get in a pissing contest, but don't think that what you and others preach to your kids, aren't the same educational values that are being preached elsewhere. On the other hand, there are many places...should I say less concentrated areas of schools where kids don't understand the value of an education and that starts at home.

Congratulations to you and your wife on your academic success. But tell me did you or your wife excel in college athletics? If so congratulations. If not then explain to me how lifting weights in high school prepared you for college. What did weight training do for you that was so amazing that you think all kids should take it.

A previous poster was right about a lot of parents not understanding finance or other valuable life skills. I had to learn a lot on my own. And those are the things I try to teach my kids. I could care less if they can bench 350 lbs. or squat 500 lbs. But I do want them to understand how to balance a check book, know what APR means, what a mutual fund is, the importance of a retirement fund and college fund for their kids, ect.... And I can assure you without a doubt that none of those will be taught in weight training.

[Bob Seger]

Congratulations to you and your wife on your academic success. But tell me did you or your wife excel in college athletics? If so congratulations. If not then explain to me how lifting weights in high school prepared you for college. What did weight training do for you that was so amazing that you think all kids should take it.

A previous poster was right about a lot of parents not understanding finance or other valuable life skills. I had to learn a lot on my own. And those are the things I try to teach my kids. I could care less if they can bench 350 lbs. or squat 500 lbs. But I do want them to understand how to balance a check book, know what APR means, what a mutual fund is, the importance of a retirement fund and college fund for their kids, ect.... And I can assure you without a doubt that none of those will be taught in weight training.

Or how the other little simple things in life that kids dont know how to do either. How about being taught what a screwdriver is and how to use one or how to sew a button on, or perhaps how to cook some sort of a meal. If they dont even take college prep classes, I would much rather mine be involved in something like an industrial arts class or home economics class than to lift weights. I realize that college is not for everyone. It's amazing how many kids are completely helpless when it comes to the little basic things that everyone should know how to do.

[Ike Cooter]

Or how the other little simple things in life that kids dont know how to do either. How about being taught what a screwdriver is and how to use one or how to sew a button on, or perhaps how to cook some sort of a meal. If they dont even take college prep classes, I would much rather mine be involved in something like an industrial arts class or home economics class than to lift weights. I realize that college is not for everyone. It's amazing how many kids are completely helpless when it comes to the little basic things that everyone should know how to do.

:Thumbs::Thumbs:
And the reason for this is because you have people like those on this site who believe weights should be part of the schools curriculum.

Before anyone disagrees with me look back over what I've said cause never in any post have I said kids shouldn't lift weights. I think its great for the athletic programs but it definately has NO benefit in preparing a kid for college. So if you want to respond with a rebutal, inform me of the benefits and why it should be part of school curriculum and why the kids shouldn't do it before or after school hours.:thanks:

[Fly Like a Duck]

Don't buy them cell phones and video gadgets, keep them off Facebook for less than 16 hours a day with their cell phones, dont let them sit around and text all day; and they might know how to cook basic meals and use a screw driver. I'm all for basic carpentry classes and personal finance. I'm a huge fan of life skill type classes truth be told.

I can also name a bunch of fat, sloppy people in this world that know how to do all of those things, but can't get their fat a$$es off the couch to use a screw driver...and/or can't teach proper healthy lifestyles to their kids.

We can go round and round on here, nitpicking crap like you all have done, but if any of you think that strength/conditioning/exercise classes as electives are the downfall and reasoning for our academic downfalls, you're sorely mistaken yourselves.

[Fly Like a Duck]

:Thumbs::Thumbs:
And the reason for this is because you have people like those on this site who believe weights should be part of the schools curriculum.

Before anyone disagrees with me look back over what I've said cause never in any post have I said kids shouldn't lift weights. I think its great for the athletic programs but it definately has NO benefit in preparing a kid for college. So if you want to respond with a rebutal, inform me of the benefits and why it should be part of school curriculum and why the kids shouldn't do it before or after school hours.:thanks:

About as much as HS English IV reading of Homer's Illiad and the Odyssey did.

One of you made the comment about there being a small percentage of graduates who go into careers of certified athletic trainers, personal trainers, etc; well, of there were more kids who were introduced to those areas and really taught it, then it quite possibly might have some impact on making our society a little less fatter and inactive than it already is.

As for lifting after school, ask your small schools who share multiple athletes who play, play, play...but, don't have a chance to get biggers, faster, stronger the benefits it would allow.

Why is it band can have band throughout the day (multiple times) for band only kids? And Humanities isn't an area tested anymore, which was the umbrella they use to slide it under (which was still a crock).