[TheRealVille]

West Virginia and Kentucky are the second and third leading coal producing states in the US. They are producing coal despite Obama's war on coal. Thousands of unemployed coal miners would not agree with your perception of reality, as evidenced by the overwhelming rejection of Obama in November, 2012 by both Kentucky and West Virginia. I think that the people who were working in the mining industry when Obama assumed office 5-1/2 years ago know better than you where the blame lies for their unemployment. In fact, I know that they know more about the industry in which they work than you do.

You forget that I spent last year in the Shale. Are you denying that scrubbers, cheaper coal elsewhere, new nukes, natural gas, natural gas units, and mild weather didn't have an affect on coal? What did KY and WV's rejection amount to?

[Hoot Gibson]

You forget that I spent last year in the Shale. Are you denying that scrubbers, cheaper coal elsewhere, new nukes, natural gas, and mild weather didn't have an affect on coal? What did KY and WV's rejection amount to?

I am not denying anything - those factors have been thoroughly discussed and rehashed in other threads. However, they do not change the fact that Obama is waging a war on coal and has been since the day that he took the oath of office. That is the truth, and as usual you can't handle the truth. As for spending a year "in the Shale," I have no idea what that means. Truckers have been delivering bottled water to coal mines and preparation plants for decades, but that does not make them experts on coal mining.

[TheRealVille]

I am not denying anything - those factors have been thoroughly discussed and rehashed in other threads. However, they do not change the fact that Obama is waging a war on coal and has been since the day that he took the oath of office. That is the truth, and as usual you can't handle the truth. As for spending a year "in the Shale," I have no idea what that means. Truckers have been delivering bottled water to coal mines and preparation plants for decades, but that does not make them experts on coal mining.

I was building oil and gas recovery plants. I wasn't delivering water to them.

[Hoot Gibson]

I was building oil and gas recovery plants. I wasn't delivering water to them.

So did working under close supervision as a pipe fitter in such plants give you expert knowledge about oil and gas exploration, drilling, or the economics thereof? There is certainly no evidence that working around coal mining operations has given you any special insight into that industry. People who actually work in the coal mining industry say that Obama is doing very real long term damage to the industry, but you say to that all of them are wrong.

[TheRealThing]

^ Again, why do we need Canada's oil when we are the 3rd largest producer of oil at present, and soon will be the #1 producer? Step away from the republican talking points and look at real life. The Marcellas and Utica shale has removed the need for buying Canada's oil. We have plenty of our own. Are you proposing we spend money with them that we don't need to? Are you proposing we keep Canada's oil workers working, and lay our off in the "shale" regions?

And again right back at ya. We are far from number 1 as things stand presently. You ought to know by now that misdirection stuff don't work with me. I gave the quote from White House Climate Adviser Daniel Schrag. In which he openly admitted there is a war on coal. And nobody is going to get laid off because of the XL. We still have fewer jobs than when Obama took office and with the world grasping for every ounce of energy producing fossil fuels it can get it's hands on lay offs are not part of the picture. Doesn't stop you from a little diversion though.

[TheRealVille]

So did working under close supervision as a pipe fitter in such plants give you expert knowledge about oil and gas exploration, drilling, or the economics thereof? There is certainly no evidence that working around coal mining operations has given you any special insight into that industry. People who actually work in the coal mining industry say that Obama is doing very real long term damage to the industry, but you say to that all of them are wrong.

Well, the training class let me know about the production numbers, and all the other oil and gas production figures.

Ask Jim Booth and other "good practice" companies if they have slowed down because of permits. I talked to guys that had plenty of permitted coal, but wouldn't mine it because it cost more to mine than it was selling for. I forget the exact number, but the #3 man for Alpha told me they were sitting on many million tons of coal because of the price.

[TheRealVille]

^LOL, FTR, I wasn't under very close supervision.

[TheRealThing]

I was building oil and gas recovery plants. I wasn't delivering water to them.

Last I checked it takes quite a while to build one of these plants. So, how many of them did you build last year again?

[Hoot Gibson]

Well, the training class let me know about the production numbers, and all the other oil and gas production figures.

Ask Jim Booth and other "good practice" companies if they have slowed down because of permits. I talked to guys that had plenty of permitted coal, but wouldn't mine it because it cost more to mine than it was selling for. I forgoet the exact number, but the #3 man for Alpha told me they were sitting on many million tons of coal because of the price.

Why don't you ask top leaders in the coal industry if Obama's policies have had a positive or negative impact on their industry? I know what the answer of 99 percent of them would be and so does anybody else who knows anything about coal mining.

[TheRealVille]

Why don't you ask top leaders in the coal industry if Obama's policies have had a positive or negative impact on their industry? I know what the answer of 99 percent of them would be and so does anybody else who knows anything about coal mining.

Mild weather and coal prices? If you can't sell it for more than it cost to mine, why would they want to mine? I think Booth and Alpha are some pretty big companies.

[Hoot Gibson]

Mild weather and coal prices? If you can't sell it for more than it cost to mine, why would they want to mine? I think Booth and Alpha are some pretty big companies.

I think so too and I think very few employees of either company voted for Barack Obama. It is amazing that somebody like Obama can openly detail his plans to cripple coal production in this country, spend 5-1/2 years executing that plan, and yet you are not honest enough to admit that he is doing exactly what he promised to do. Mild winters, mild summers, volatile gas prices, etc., have always contributed to boom and bust cycles of the coal industry. Arbitrary denial of mining permits and arbitrary changes to emissions rules for power plants that have been in operation for decades are what Obama brought to the table.

[TheRealVille]

I think so too and I think very few employees of either company voted for Barack Obama. It is amazing that somebody like Obama can openly detail his plans to cripple coal production in this country, spend 5-1/2 years executing that plan, and yet you are not honest enough to admit that he is doing exactly what he promised to do. Mild winters, mild summers, volatile gas prices, etc., have always contributed to boom and bust cycles of the coal industry. Arbitrary denial of mining permits and arbitrary changes to emissions rules for power plants that have been in operation for decades are what Obama brought to the table.

You can't mine it for a higher cost than it's selling for, even if you've got permits out the ass, which was what was happening.

[Hoot Gibson]

You can't mine it for a higher cost than it's selling for, even if you've got permits out the ass, which was what was happening.

It can take years to obtain permits. In addition, it takes time to lease or buy mining rights for mineral and surface owners and obtaining those rights is expensive and begin before a permit application is even filed.

Obama is intentionally doing long term damage to the industry and everybody except you and your sidekick knows and acknowledges that to be a fact.

[TheRealVille]

It can take years to obtain permits. In addition, it takes time to lease or buy mining rights for mineral and surface owners and obtaining those rights is expensive and begin before a permit application is even filed.

Obama is intentionally doing long term damage to the industry and everybody except you and your sidekick knows and acknowledges that to be a fact.

Would you mine coal if it cost more to mine than it was selling for? Dip, dodge, dive?

[Hoot Gibson]

Would you mine coal if it cost more to mine than it was selling for? Dip, dodge, dive?

You are the one doing the dodging. Businesses need some predictability in the regulatory environment. Obama has destroyed the ability of coal mining companies and utilities to forecast future costs. Coal mining has always involved a certain measure of risk and volatility but having an EPA and OSM that is marching to Obama's orders is making it difficult for investors to put their money on coal. Coal is not like tap water - the supply cannot be turned on and off with a tap.

[TheRealVille]

You are the one doing the dodging. Businesses need some predictability in the regulatory environment. Obama has destroyed the ability of coal mining companies and utilities to forecast future costs. Coal mining has always involved a certain measure of risk and volatility but having an EPA and OSM that is marching to Obama's orders is making it difficult for investors to put their money on coal. Coal is not like tap water - the supply cannot be turned on and off with a tap.

Can they mine it, if it's selling for less than it cost to mine. It's a simple question, no need to sidestep.

[Hoot Gibson]

Can they mine it, if it's selling for less than it cost to mine. It's a simple question, no need to sidestep.

Yes, in the short term, companies often mine coal and sell it for less than it costs to mine. That is often cheaper than to paying the fixed costs associated with idling mines until the market improves. Obviously, companies cannot operate at a loss for long and eventually they have to close mines if there is no hope of a return to profitability.

However, you are deliberately trying to give Obama's war on coal a pass by focusing on short term market conditions, while ignoring the long term damage of the Obama administration's arbitrary enforcement decisions and other policies. The coal industry has successfully dealt with all of the short term factors that you cited for decades before Obama was ever elected.

The game changer has been Obama's decision to make war on the industry through the agencies that he controls. This country has never had a president who has been as opposed to U.S. industry as Obama is. The persistent high unemployment rate in this country has been no accident.

[TheRealVille]

Yes, in the short term, companies often mine coal and sell it for less than it costs to mine. That is often cheaper than to paying the fixed costs associated with idling mines until the market improves. Obviously, companies cannot operate at a loss for long and eventually they have to close mines if there is no hope of a return to profitability.

However, you are deliberately trying to give Obama's war on coal a pass by focusing on short term market conditions, while ignoring the long term damage of the Obama administration's arbitrary enforcement decisions and other policies. The coal industry has successfully dealt with all of the short term factors that you cited for decades before Obama was ever elected.

The game changer has been Obama's decision to make war on the industry through the agencies that he controls. This country has never had a president who has been as opposed to U.S. industry as Obama is. The persistent high unemployment rate in this country has been no accident.

Why did one of Alpha's big guys, which I rode motorcycles with, tell me they were sitting on millions of tons of coal, until they could afford to mine it?

[Hoot Gibson]

Why did one of Alpha's big guys, which I rode motorcycles with, tell me they were sitting on millions of tons of coal, until they could afford to mine it?

If they do not have millions of tons of coal under permit, then they would be short timers in the business. Coal companies have to keep permitted reserves in the pipeline, which is exactly what Obama is making it difficult to do. Do you think Alpha has stopped leasing property and preparing permit applications? Ask your alleged Alpha executive buddy.

[TheRealVille]

If they do not have millions of tons of coal under permit, then they would be short timers in the business. Coal companies have to keep permitted reserves in the pipeline, which is exactly what Obama is making it difficult to do. Do you think Alpha has stopped leasing property and preparing permit applications? Ask your alleged Alpha executive buddy.

Can you say spin? What's that got to do with sitting on coal when prices are low? Alleged only to you, not me.

[Hoot Gibson]

Can you say spin? What's that got to do with sitting on coal when prices are low? Alleged only to you, not me.

Obama's policies don't have much impact on most of the coal that is already under permit. What you are saying has little or nothing to do with the damaging actions that Obama has taken against the coal industry since he took office. I am absolutely sure that Alpha has not quit trying to tie up coal reserves and property rights and that it has not stopped working on permit applications. If you really are buddies with any coal company executives, then tell them that Obama has done nothing to make it more difficult for their companies to operate and see what kind of response you get. It is no accident that Obama has almost no support in the coal industry. He has earned the scorn that he gets from the industry.

[TheRealVille]

Obama's policies don't have much impact on most of the coal that is already under permit. What you are saying has little or nothing to do with the damaging actions that Obama has taken against the coal industry since he took office. I am absolutely sure that Alpha has not quit trying to tie up coal reserves and property rights and that it has not stopped working on permit applications. If you really are buddies with any coal company executives, then tell them that Obama has done nothing to make it more difficult for their companies to operate and see what kind of response you get. It is no accident that Obama has almost no support in the coal industry. He has earned the scorn that he gets from the industry.

I'll tell him to get you to make the selling prices go higher than the mining costs. :hilarious:

[Hoot Gibson]

I'll tell him to get you to make the selling prices go higher than the mining costs. :hilarious:

Tell him whatever you want. I will not be able to see a figment of your imagination.

[TheRealVille]

Tell him whatever you want. I will not be able to see a figment of your imagination.

:hilarious: No imagination, what I said he said to me, on a bike ride, is what he said. BTW, off topic, we went to Fayetteville, WV.

[Hoot Gibson]

:hilarious: No imagination, what I said he said to me, on a bike ride, is what he said. BTW, off topic, we went to Fayetteville, WV.

I have known a lot of coal company executives over the years, including a few college classmates, but I have never met one that would remotely share your view of Obama. I have known a few hard core Democratic UMWA miners who might still vote for Obama, but nobody who knew much about the business of mining coal beyond operating a piece of equipment or shoveling a belt.

[vector]

West Virginia and Kentucky are the second and third leading coal producing states in the US. They are producing coal despite Obama's war on coal. Thousands of unemployed coal miners would not agree with your perception of reality, as evidenced by the overwhelming rejection of Obama in November, 2012 by both Kentucky and West Virginia. I think that the people who were working in the mining industry when [HTML]Obama assumed office 5-1/2 years ago [/HTML]know better than you where the blame lies for their unemployment. In fact, I know that they know more about the industry in which they work than you do.

there you go again spreading lied

[TheRealVille]

I have known a lot of coal company executives over the years, including a few college classmates, but I have never met one that would remotely share your view of Obama. I have known a few hard core Democratic UMWA miners who might still vote for Obama, but nobody who knew much about the business of mining coal beyond operating a piece of equipment or shoveling a belt.

I didn't say he agreed with, or even supported Obama. I didn't ask him. But, at least he was honest as to why they were laying off, and sitting on unmined coal.

[Hoot Gibson]

I didn't say he agreed with, or even supported Obama. I didn't ask him. But, at least he was honest as to why they were laying off, and sitting on unmined coal.

It does not matter how many times you repeat the fact that companies have coal under permit that has not been mined yet, it will still be irrelevant to Obama's abuse of power in waging war against the coal industry. To read your silly and repetitious posts, one would think that companies should mine everything that they have under permit and then beg the government to issue them another permit. That is not how the system works and that has never been how the system worked. It would be like a factory running through all of its parts and raw materials and then just shutting down its assembly lines while its clerks ordered more parts.

[TheRealVille]

It does not matter how many times you repeat the fact that companies have coal under permit that has not been mined yet, it will still be irrelevant to Obama's abuse of power in waging war against the coal industry. To read your silly and repetitious posts, one would think that companies should mine everything that they have under permit and then beg the government to issue them another permit. That is not how the system works and that has never been how the system worked. It would be like a factory running through all of its parts and raw materials and then just shutting down its assembly lines while its clerks ordered more parts.

Maybe you should tell one of the top Alpha guys your take on it.


FTR, if you made that signature pic, you aren't very good at all.

[Hoot Gibson]

Maybe you should tell one of the top Alpha guys your take on it.

I don't need to, they already know what they are doing. You are the one who is clueless about the coal mining industry.[/QUOTE]

FTR, if you made that signature pic, you aren't very good at all.

I will take your opinion for what it is worth. nicker:

The sig shows 53 months of Obama unemployment numbers and reminds people of what the economy was like in the 8 years that preceded Obama's reign of economic terror.

Obama's "new normal" is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. He makes Jimmy Carter look like Milton Friedman.