[J. R. VanHoose]

Let me have your thoughts on this subject and I will chip in later with my thoughts and some historical "statistics" to consider for this argument!

[Batpuff]

I think people these days and times have nothing more to do than try to find a way to sue people or organizations, because there too damn lazy to work. Whats the big deal anyways its apart of history like or dont like its something we cant change.

[kyr450]

Its damn ridiculous, How long has allen central been the rebels??? And your just now trying to start trouble over it??? Get a damn Life you dumbass people...

[kyr450]

Why does it even matter what their Mascott is???

[gotcha2]

IF you look hard enough, you can find something offensive in most things. If we change everything in society that "offends" anyone- we will spend the next 100 years making changes.

[-STAT-]

Its pathetic is what it is. People have nothing else better to do and are wasting their time bringing it up.

[BlackcatAlum]

Its just a mascot! They don't do anything out of the way to represent racism.

[SFHS_basketball]

The lawsuit or whatever it is about the Rebel mascot is STUPID!!!! I mean GET A LIFE PHILDERSDORF!!! Don't you have anything better to do than try and file a lawsuit against Allen Central for representing the rebel flag?

[konan]

dont see nothing wrong with the rebel mascot.

[football_30]

I think that it is crazy the AC has been the Rebels forever i think they should lay off...

[15th region slamdunk]

yep, I agree

[Doc Holliday]

Since Rebel and mascots cover all sports and not just one the thread has been moved to here.
Keep it clean

[VHSL-helper]

There is not a thing wrong with the nickname itself. I think the big problem here is the associated use of the Confederate Flag.

[Estillfootballgirl]

I think people these days and times have nothing more to do than try to find a way to sue people or organizations, because there too damn lazy to work. Whats the big deal anyways its apart of history like or dont like its something we cant change.

Completely Agreed

[StrikeoutKing]

I think this goes beyond the whole ordeal with Allen Central. I saw a story on ESPN's "Outside the Lines" where the NCAA is preventing any university in South Carolina can't host a post-season tournament, because of the Confederate flag flying on the capital grounds. Up until the year 2000 (maybe 2001) the state capital building in Columbia, SC had the Confederate flag flying 3rd, below the American flag and the state flag. It's rediculous! I, personally, don't see racism when I see a Confederate flag. I see a sign of what our country had to endure to become what it is today. Of course, I'm referring to the Civil War, and the Confederate troops. It's a symbol of America's past, and if you can't learn to accept it, then maybe you need to repeat some history courses or something. It's crazy to think that all people have time to do now days is look around and try to find something that they consider "offensive." The name "Rebel" or the flag doesn't mean "Hey! I'm racist!" It simply shows a sign of the history of our great nation, and if you can't learn to live with that, then maybe you should either move to another country, or not live!!!!!

[Doc Holliday]

lets not just look at AC lets look at it from a nationwide perspective.

A little food for thought for all of you.
We live in a nation where under President Clintion we became Politically correct where it became wrong to offend anyone who was different so no racial or biased humor can be permitted.
Case in Point
Bugs Bunny

You will no longer see the anti-German, or anti-japanese war cartoons that Warner brothers created during WWII. Or the hot-n-tot bushmen which was my favorite..

You don't see "All in the Family Reruns" until after 10:00 becasue they used allsort of racial slurrs to get the point of ignorance in racism because its now deemed to disturbing and offensive yet was the number one show on TV and stayed in the top 10 for 7 years.

The problem is not the flag its society. We live in a Politically correct world.

Bring back Bugs!!!!

[Doc Holliday]

How many people remember what St. Johns mascot used to be or Stanford.

The tide has changed people

[Knockoutking]

Just think though they get mad over the rebels and we have done nothing to get the "racism" reflection and just one thing maybe the mascot "Blackcats" offends African-Americans with the word"Black" but thats a whole different prespective and the only thing this is over is that the whole right beaver area has better scores on there so called"CATS" test and the P'burgers cannot take it case closed it all should be dropped.

[kyr450]

If these people would look up the true meaning of the rebel flag it has nothing to do with racism, it has just been morphed into it over the years... I guess Belfry cant be the pirates or east ridge cant be the warriors because it is making fun of pirates an indians... LOL give me a damn break...

[Knockoutking]

The Confederate Battle Flag is a symbol, a monument, and a testament to hundreds of thousands of Southerners who fought and bled and died defending their home, their families, and what they believed in. Most Confederate soldiers were just poor farmers trying make a living the best they could, many had no slaves.All of this, the good, the bad, the blood, the honor, the land, is wrapped up, part and parcel, into a vibrant spirit of the South, and that spirit's material form is the Confederate battle flag. If you reject it, you reject the South. And then you forget. We cannont afford to forget, especially our mistakes...SO from now on they need to get the facts straight.

[rebel mom]

:Clap:

Just think though they get mad over the rebels and we have done nothing to get the "racism" reflection and just one thing maybe the mascot "Blackcats" offends African-Americans with the word"Black" but thats a whole different prespective and the only thing this is over is that the whole right beaver area has better scores on there so called"CATS" test and the P'burgers cannot take it case closed it all should be dropped.

You said it!!:thumpsup:

[Old school Dawg]

I agree but almost everyone in the country has done away with the mascot of a rebel and i figure if its not a big deal why cant they just change it,,now dont nobody start screaming at me,,i agree with the rest of the posts but people claim it is very offensive to them.Does everyone think that they are lying about it being offensive just to raise a black white issue.I grew up using the n word myself but have quit that,,,almost quit,,but I dont feel I have any thing against anyone of color.What do u think JR

[Old school Dawg]

The Confederate Battle Flag is a symbol, a monument, and a testament to hundreds of thousands of Southerners who fought and bled and died defending their home, their families, and what they believed in. Most Confederate soldiers were just poor farmers trying make a living the best they could, many had no slaves.All of this, the good, the bad, the blood, the honor, the land, is wrapped up, part and parcel, into a vibrant spirit of the South, and that spirit's material form is the Confederate battle flag. If you reject it, you reject the South. And then you forget. We cannont afford to forget, especially our mistakes...SO from now on they need to get the facts straight.

Today they south would be charged with treason,,what are your all,s thoughts on this?

[J. R. VanHoose]

I did some research and here is some of what I have found. Do with it what you will:

Why do so many people view the Confederate “Rebel” Flag as a symbol of hatred? Because the flag was used by the southern soldiers during the Civil War, and as children we were taught that the Civil War was fought over slavery. After years of research, I can tell you that the Civil War was fought because of more national issues than slavery. The war delt with the issues of political turmoil, high taxes, issues of states’ rights, the preservation of the Union, and other national factors.

• Total slave population of the United States – 3,950,528
  
• Total number of slaves in Kentucky – 225,483
  
• Total population of Kentucky in 1860 – 1,155,684
  
• Percentage of slaves in Kentucky – 20%
  
• According to the 1860 U.S. Census – only about 385,000 people owned slaves in the United States out of a population of about 31,000,000 (1.3%).
  

Compared slave populations of local states: Virginia – 31%, Tennessee – 25%, Missouri – 10%, Arkansas – 26%, Maryland – 13%



Eastern Kentucky counties slave populations in 1860



Lawrence: pop. 7,601, # of slaves 146, percentage of pop. 1.9%

Johnson: pop. 5,306, # of slaves 27, percentage of pop. 0.5%

Floyd: pop. 6,388, # of slaves 147, percentage of pop. 2.1%

Pike: pop. 7,384, # of slaves 97, percentage of pop. 1.3%

Morgan: pop. 9,237, # of slaves 170, percentage of pop. 1.8%

Magoffin: pop. 3,485, # of slaves 72, percentage of pop. 1.8%


Former “slaves” from Eastern Kentucky who served in the Confederate Army during the Civil War:



William and Woody Davidson: brothers, slaves of the Davidson family of Floyd County, served in Co. B 10th Kentucky Cavalry, both were captured in action during the Battle of Saltville, VA on October 2, 1864, both were sent to Camp Chase Prison (OH) where they were released after the war.



George W. Honaker: served with his master – Captain James Honaker of Pike County – in Co. D 10th Kentucky Cavalry.



To me the "Stars and Bars" are a symbol of what a few of my ancestors fought for, yes I had some great-great-great grandfathers who fought for the Confederacy. Did they own slaves at any time, NO!! Do I believe that they fought for slavery, NO!! They were defending their rights that were given to them in the Consititution. Does this mean that I support the instituion of slavery, NO!!!!!! I think it was a horrible instituion, but one that was supported by some in Eastern Kentucky by people who actively fought for the Union Army as well as by some who fought in the Confederate Army. What is even more astonishing, and something people don't realize is that there were free blacks in the South who actually owned slaves!!!! For example, here are some more statistics:



Slave holders in the Deep South who were black or former slaves:



Justus Angel (Colleton, SC) – owned 84 slaves in 1830

Mistress L. Horry (Colleton, SC) – owned 84 slaves in 1830

• In 1830 South Carolina ¼ of free black slave masters owned 10 or more slaves (8 people owned 30 or more slaves).
  
• In 1860 125 blacks owned slaves in Charleston, SC, six owned 10 or more.
  
• In 1860 William Ellison was South Carolina’s largest black slaveholder. He had been born as a slave in 1790 and by the mid 1840s he had built a small cotton empire. By 1860 he owned more than 900 acres of land and 63 slaves. His sons, who lived on his plantation, owned an additional 9 slaves. He had a reputation as a harsh master, and his slaves were said to be the county’s worst fed and clothed. His family actively supported the Confederate States Government and his oldest grandson served in the Confederate Army.
  

• In 1860 New Orleans over 3,000 free blacks owned slaves (out of a black population of 10,689, or 28%)
  
• In 1860 Louisiana, six blacks owned 65 or more slaves, the largest were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P. C. Richards who also owned a sugar plantation – they owned some 152 slaves. Another free black who owned slaves in Louisiana was Antoine Dubuclet who owned over 100 slaves and whose estate was valued at $264,000 in 1860. He later became the Louisiana State treasurer during Reconstruction (1868-1877).
  

• In 1860 North Carolina 69 free blacks owned slaves.
  

• In Richmond, VA in 1863 Gilbert Hunt, an ex-slave blacksmith, owned two slaves, a house (valued at 1,376), and $500 in other properties.
  

So is the rebel flag as sign of racism? I think not, I believe that is as much as a synbol of the American flag. It tells the story of a struggle, of people and their beliefs. I will leave you with some quotes that I have found that I thought were interesting:
[size=3]





“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so.”

- Abraham Lincoln, 1st Inaugural Address 1861



“My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not to save or destroy slavery.”

- Abraham Lincoln, letter to Horace Greeley of the New York Daily Tribune 1862



“If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side.”

- Union General, later 18th President of the United States, Ulysses S. Grant





[/size]

[-STAT-]

I think this goes beyond the whole ordeal with Allen Central. I saw a story on ESPN's "Outside the Lines" where the NCAA is preventing any university in South Carolina can't host a post-season tournament, because of the Confederate flag flying on the capital grounds. Up until the year 2000 (maybe 2001) the state capital building in Columbia, SC had the Confederate flag flying 3rd, below the American flag and the state flag. It's rediculous! I, personally, don't see racism when I see a Confederate flag. I see a sign of what our country had to endure to become what it is today. Of course, I'm referring to the Civil War, and the Confederate troops. It's a symbol of America's past, and if you can't learn to accept it, then maybe you need to repeat some history courses or something. It's crazy to think that all people have time to do now days is look around and try to find something that they consider "offensive." The name "Rebel" or the flag doesn't mean "Hey! I'm racist!" It simply shows a sign of the history of our great nation, and if you can't learn to live with that, then maybe you should either move to another country, or not live!!!!!

Totally agree.

[TOMCAT06]

i like the stats vanhoose ive always liked the license plate that is a rebel flag and it says:"If this flag affends you, you need a history lesson!" I LOVE IT

[BC75]

I did some research and here is some of what I have found. Do with it what you will:

Why do so many people view the Confederate “Rebel” Flag as a symbol of hatred? Because the flag was used by the southern soldiers during the Civil War, and as children we were taught that the Civil War was fought over slavery. After years of research, I can tell you that the Civil War was fought because of more national issues than slavery. The war delt with the issues of political turmoil, high taxes, issues of states’ rights, the preservation of the Union, and other national factors.

• Total slave population of the United States – 3,950,528
  
• Total number of slaves in Kentucky – 225,483
  
• Total population of Kentucky in 1860 – 1,155,684
  
• Percentage of slaves in Kentucky – 20%
  
• According to the 1860 U.S. Census – only about 385,000 people owned slaves in the United States out of a population of about 31,000,000 (1.3%).
  

Compared slave populations of local states: Virginia – 31%, Tennessee – 25%, Missouri – 10%, Arkansas – 26%, Maryland – 13%



Eastern Kentucky counties slave populations in 1860



Lawrence: pop. 7,601, # of slaves 146, percentage of pop. 1.9%

Johnson: pop. 5,306, # of slaves 27, percentage of pop. 0.5%

Floyd: pop. 6,388, # of slaves 147, percentage of pop. 2.1%

Pike: pop. 7,384, # of slaves 97, percentage of pop. 1.3%

Morgan: pop. 9,237, # of slaves 170, percentage of pop. 1.8%

Magoffin: pop. 3,485, # of slaves 72, percentage of pop. 1.8%


Former “slaves” from Eastern Kentucky who served in the Confederate Army during the Civil War:



William and Woody Davidson: brothers, slaves of the Davidson family of Floyd County, served in Co. B 10th Kentucky Cavalry, both were captured in action during the Battle of Saltville, VA on October 2, 1864, both were sent to Camp Chase Prison (OH) where they were released after the war.



George W. Honaker: served with his master – Captain James Honaker of Pike County – in Co. D 10th Kentucky Cavalry.



To me the "Stars and Bars" are a symbol of what a few of my ancestors fought for, yes I had some great-great-great grandfathers who fought for the Confederacy. Did they own slaves at any time, NO!! Do I believe that they fought for slavery, NO!! They were defending their rights that were given to them in the Consititution. Does this mean that I support the instituion of slavery, NO!!!!!! I think it was a horrible instituion, but one that was supported by some in Eastern Kentucky by people who actively fought for the Union Army as well as by some who fought in the Confederate Army. What is even more astonishing, and something people don't realize is that there were free blacks in the South who actually owned slaves!!!! For example, here are some more statistics:



Slave holders in the Deep South who were black or former slaves:



Justus Angel (Colleton, SC) – owned 84 slaves in 1830

Mistress L. Horry (Colleton, SC) – owned 84 slaves in 1830

• In 1830 South Carolina ¼ of free black slave masters owned 10 or more slaves (8 people owned 30 or more slaves).
  
• In 1860 125 blacks owned slaves in Charleston, SC, six owned 10 or more.
  
• In 1860 William Ellison was South Carolina’s largest black slaveholder. He had been born as a slave in 1790 and by the mid 1840s he had built a small cotton empire. By 1860 he owned more than 900 acres of land and 63 slaves. His sons, who lived on his plantation, owned an additional 9 slaves. He had a reputation as a harsh master, and his slaves were said to be the county’s worst fed and clothed. His family actively supported the Confederate States Government and his oldest grandson served in the Confederate Army.
  

• In 1860 New Orleans over 3,000 free blacks owned slaves (out of a black population of 10,689, or 28%)
  
• In 1860 Louisiana, six blacks owned 65 or more slaves, the largest were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P. C. Richards who also owned a sugar plantation – they owned some 152 slaves. Another free black who owned slaves in Louisiana was Antoine Dubuclet who owned over 100 slaves and whose estate was valued at $264,000 in 1860. He later became the Louisiana State treasurer during Reconstruction (1868-1877).
  

• In 1860 North Carolina 69 free blacks owned slaves.
  

• In Richmond, VA in 1863 Gilbert Hunt, an ex-slave blacksmith, owned two slaves, a house (valued at 1,376), and $500 in other properties.
  

So is the rebel flag as sign of racism? I think not, I believe that is as much as a synbol of the American flag. It tells the story of a struggle, of people and their beliefs. I will leave you with some quotes that I have found that I thought were interesting:
[size=3]





“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so.”

- Abraham Lincoln, 1st Inaugural Address 1861



“My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not to save or destroy slavery.”

- Abraham Lincoln, letter to Horace Greeley of the New York Daily Tribune 1862



“If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side.”

- Union General, later 18th President of the United States, Ulysses S. Grant





[/size]

Good information, but when they did census back then, couldn't only 1 of every 4 slaves be counted? Something with electing repersentatives becuase slave states could have more in the govt. becuase their states had more people in them. So they were only allowed to count 1 of 4.
I'm about 50% sure I'm wrong on this so correct me if I am. But it justs seems like I remember somthing about this from history class.

[VHSL-helper]

Maybe the govt. "adjusted" the numbers to 1/4 (or whatever) when it was done, but the Census counts everybody.

[Johnny Fairplay]

I did some research and here is some of what I have found. Do with it what you will:

Why do so many people view the Confederate “Rebel” Flag as a symbol of hatred? Because the flag was used by the southern soldiers during the Civil War, and as children we were taught that the Civil War was fought over slavery. After years of research, I can tell you that the Civil War was fought because of more national issues than slavery. The war delt with the issues of political turmoil, high taxes, issues of states’ rights, the preservation of the Union, and other national factors.

• Total slave population of the United States – 3,950,528
  
• Total number of slaves in Kentucky – 225,483
  
• Total population of Kentucky in 1860 – 1,155,684
  
• Percentage of slaves in Kentucky – 20%
  
• According to the 1860 U.S. Census – only about 385,000 people owned slaves in the United States out of a population of about 31,000,000 (1.3%).
  

Compared slave populations of local states: Virginia – 31%, Tennessee – 25%, Missouri – 10%, Arkansas – 26%, Maryland – 13%



Eastern Kentucky counties slave populations in 1860



Lawrence: pop. 7,601, # of slaves 146, percentage of pop. 1.9%

Johnson: pop. 5,306, # of slaves 27, percentage of pop. 0.5%

Floyd: pop. 6,388, # of slaves 147, percentage of pop. 2.1%

Pike: pop. 7,384, # of slaves 97, percentage of pop. 1.3%

Morgan: pop. 9,237, # of slaves 170, percentage of pop. 1.8%

Magoffin: pop. 3,485, # of slaves 72, percentage of pop. 1.8%


Former “slaves” from Eastern Kentucky who served in the Confederate Army during the Civil War:



William and Woody Davidson: brothers, slaves of the Davidson family of Floyd County, served in Co. B 10th Kentucky Cavalry, both were captured in action during the Battle of Saltville, VA on October 2, 1864, both were sent to Camp Chase Prison (OH) where they were released after the war.



George W. Honaker: served with his master – Captain James Honaker of Pike County – in Co. D 10th Kentucky Cavalry.



To me the "Stars and Bars" are a symbol of what a few of my ancestors fought for, yes I had some great-great-great grandfathers who fought for the Confederacy. Did they own slaves at any time, NO!! Do I believe that they fought for slavery, NO!! They were defending their rights that were given to them in the Consititution. Does this mean that I support the instituion of slavery, NO!!!!!! I think it was a horrible instituion, but one that was supported by some in Eastern Kentucky by people who actively fought for the Union Army as well as by some who fought in the Confederate Army. What is even more astonishing, and something people don't realize is that there were free blacks in the South who actually owned slaves!!!! For example, here are some more statistics:



Slave holders in the Deep South who were black or former slaves:



Justus Angel (Colleton, SC) – owned 84 slaves in 1830

Mistress L. Horry (Colleton, SC) – owned 84 slaves in 1830

• In 1830 South Carolina ¼ of free black slave masters owned 10 or more slaves (8 people owned 30 or more slaves).
  
• In 1860 125 blacks owned slaves in Charleston, SC, six owned 10 or more.
  
• In 1860 William Ellison was South Carolina’s largest black slaveholder. He had been born as a slave in 1790 and by the mid 1840s he had built a small cotton empire. By 1860 he owned more than 900 acres of land and 63 slaves. His sons, who lived on his plantation, owned an additional 9 slaves. He had a reputation as a harsh master, and his slaves were said to be the county’s worst fed and clothed. His family actively supported the Confederate States Government and his oldest grandson served in the Confederate Army.
  

• In 1860 New Orleans over 3,000 free blacks owned slaves (out of a black population of 10,689, or 28%)
  
• In 1860 Louisiana, six blacks owned 65 or more slaves, the largest were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P. C. Richards who also owned a sugar plantation – they owned some 152 slaves. Another free black who owned slaves in Louisiana was Antoine Dubuclet who owned over 100 slaves and whose estate was valued at $264,000 in 1860. He later became the Louisiana State treasurer during Reconstruction (1868-1877).
  

• In 1860 North Carolina 69 free blacks owned slaves.
  

• In Richmond, VA in 1863 Gilbert Hunt, an ex-slave blacksmith, owned two slaves, a house (valued at 1,376), and $500 in other properties.
  

So is the rebel flag as sign of racism? I think not, I believe that is as much as a synbol of the American flag. It tells the story of a struggle, of people and their beliefs. I will leave you with some quotes that I have found that I thought were interesting:
[size=3]





“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so.”

- Abraham Lincoln, 1st Inaugural Address 1861



“My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not to save or destroy slavery.”

- Abraham Lincoln, letter to Horace Greeley of the New York Daily Tribune 1862



“If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side.”

- Union General, later 18th President of the United States, Ulysses S. Grant

[/size]

I would completly agree with you on this JR. The civil war was not started because of slavery. The issue Slavery was brought much later.


On Jan. 1, 1863, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln declared free all slaves residing in territory in rebellion against the federal government. This Emancipation Proclamation actually freed few people. It did not apply to slaves in border states fighting on the Union side; nor did it affect slaves in southern areas already under Union control. Naturally, the states in rebellion did not act on Lincoln's order. But the proclamation did show Americans-- and the world--that the civil war was now being fought to end slavery. Lincoln had been reluctant to come to this position. A believer in white supremacy, he initially viewed the war only in terms of preserving the Union. As pressure for abolition mounted in Congress and the country, however, Lincoln became more sympathetic to the idea. On Sept. 22, 1862, he issued a preliminary proclamation announcing that emancipation would become effective on Jan. 1, 1863, in those states still in rebellion. Although the Emancipation Proclamation did not end slavery in America--this was achieved by the passage of the 13TH Amendment to the Constitution on Dec. 18, 1865--it did make that accomplishment a basic war goal and a virtual certainty.

[Johnny Fairplay]

Just think though they get mad over the rebels and we have done nothing to get the "racism" reflection and just one thing maybe the mascot "Blackcats" offends African-Americans with the word"Black" but thats a whole different prespective and the only thing this is over is that the whole right beaver area has better scores on there so called"CATS" test and the P'burgers cannot take it case closed it all should be dropped.

I personally think your comments about the people of Pburg are as ridiculous as some of the rebel flag haters. So Mickey Mouse McGuire caused a great deal of this but he does not represent every one in Pburg, he is another attorney out for free publicity. I am from Pburg and I fully support the AC mascot and flag as well as other from this small town. And for you info Blackcats and Panthers could/would be offending to white Americans as it could stand for Black Panthers which was all about Black Power but as you said a whole different perspective.