[thecavemaster]

What? :confused:

I don't know how that relates to what I just said. I didn't mention anything about Christ's principles not being able to work or being too naive for our society. What I said is that the government's laws should not be based on any religion's values. That is a prime example of government overstepping its bounds.

Now, if said principles are in line with protecting everyone's basic freedoms, then I'm all for it being law. Otherwise, no.

There are basic values, life affirming, human dignity affirming, values that cut a wide swath across diverse religious traditions. If government cannot protect the weak from the powerful, the poor from the rich, the minority from the majority, and, sometimes, the proud and ignorant from themsevles, then it (or we) have disavowed the fundamental underpinnings of governance.

[More Cowbell]

There are basic values, life affirming, human dignity affirming, values that cut a wide swath across diverse religious traditions. If government cannot protect the weak from the powerful, the poor from the rich, the minority from the majority, and, sometimes, the proud and ignorant from themsevles, then it (or we) have disavowed the fundamental underpinnings of governance.

I think maybe we are in some kind of agreement here. Government SHOULD protect all those groups you mentioned, both the rich and the poor, the weak and the powerful. And by "protect" I mean preserve their basic rights and freedoms.

[letthebighogroot]

My position is that one can believe in Christian principles and try to live their life by them, but not necessarily want those principles to be the law of the land.

Whether America is a "Christian nation" or not, it doesn't matter. If something is wrong in God's eyes, then it's still wrong regardless of whether it's against the law or not. God doesn't need the laws of this country to force people to obey Him. It's a personal choice for everyone to decide whether they will follow His commands or not. That's the beauty of free will.

In my opinion, government should exist to protect the rights of its people, not to legislate into law the principles of some religion. No matter what religion that might be.

Cowbell.........I have found something we agree on.........I would also like to add this.................Keep your Bibles out of the voting booth!

[More Cowbell]

Cowbell.........I have found something we agree on.........I would also like to add this.................Keep your Bibles out of the voting booth!

I guess we don't have to argue over everything...

As for the Bible comment, I don't know. If people want to vote for positions consistent with their Christian beliefs, then that's their right, even though I may disagree with it.

To be honest, voting solely by "Christian values" is no worse than someone voting for the same party in every race, simply because that's all their family has ever voted for going back several generations (such a mindset is very prevalent around here). Either philosophy is flawed in my book.

[thecavemaster]

I guess we don't have to argue over everything...

As for the Bible comment, I don't know. If people want to vote for positions consistent with their Christian beliefs, then that's their right, even though I may disagree with it.

To be honest, voting solely by "Christian values" is no worse than someone voting for the same party in every race, simply because that's all their family has ever voted for going back several generations (such a mindset is very prevalent around here). Either philosophy is flawed in my book.

To me, it is not that people go into the voting booth and cast the ballot based on abortion or homosexual marriage or what candidate they perceive to be most closely aligned to their religious beliefs. What bothers me is people who think that those who disagree with them cannot have "god on their side" (Bob Dylan), must be somehow evil, must be somehow unpatriotic and the like. Why can we not simply disagree without uplifting ourselves as Moral Judge of the Universe?

[Beetle01]

To me, it is not that people go into the voting booth and cast the ballot based on abortion or homosexual marriage or what candidate they perceive to be most closely aligned to their religious beliefs. What bothers me is people who think that those who disagree with them cannot have "god on their side" (Bob Dylan), must be somehow evil, must be somehow unpatriotic and the like. Why can we not simply disagree without uplifting ourselves as Moral Judge of the Universe?

I think the number of people who believe those that don't side with them are not aligned with God are a small percentage. However, if all their beliefs derive from their religion, it makes sense in a way to me. Or atleast I can understand how they would percieve other views as against God. I don't agree with that view, but I think I could understand where some people are coming from. Then some of those people are just nuts too.

[More Cowbell]

To me, it is not that people go into the voting booth and cast the ballot based on abortion or homosexual marriage or what candidate they perceive to be most closely aligned to their religious beliefs. What bothers me is people who think that those who disagree with them cannot have "god on their side" (Bob Dylan), must be somehow evil, must be somehow unpatriotic and the like. Why can we not simply disagree without uplifting ourselves as Moral Judge of the Universe?

If someone only voted for candidates who supported Christian principles, as opposed to someone who they feel is supporting positions that are anti-Christian, why wouldn't they feel that way? Not saying that it's right, but you could certainly see their point of view.

And conservatives aren't the only group guilty of a condescending attitude. Do you not think there are countless liberals out there who feel that they are the "educated" side, and that conservatives are all just "ignorant rednecks" or worse? I know that this was the general consensus on campus when I was in college. If you were in the small minority who didn't fall in line with every liberal position, you were looked down upon both by professors and other students. You could feel the sense of "That person is so uneducated. If they were smarter, they would agree with me." I had multiple classes where you could just see the disgust on your professor's face if you didn't agree with some liberal platform they were supporting.

In summary, one side thinks they have moral superiority, the other feels they have intellectual superiority. Neither position is any better or worse than the other.

[thecavemaster]

If someone only voted for candidates who supported Christian principles, as opposed to someone who they feel is supporting positions that are anti-Christian, why wouldn't they feel that way? Not saying that it's right, but you could certainly see their point of view.

And conservatives aren't the only group guilty of a condescending attitude. Do you not think there are countless liberals out there who feel that they are the "educated" side, and that conservatives are all just "ignorant rednecks" or worse? I know that this was the general consensus on campus when I was in college. If you were in the small minority who didn't fall in line with every liberal position, you were looked down upon both by professors and other students. You could feel the sense of "That person is so uneducated. If they were smarter, they would agree with me." I had multiple classes where you could just see the disgust on your professor's face if you didn't agree with some liberal platform they were supporting.

In summary, one side thinks they have moral superiority, the other feels they have intellectual superiority. Neither position is any better or worse than the other.

I am a member of Amnesty International. I used to go to a lot of conferences. Of course, the membership of AI is made up of many, many liberals and ultra-liberals. In all honesty, I found lots of them to have the same moral superiority complex, only around a different sub-set of issues. I didn't care for it in them, tried to overcome it in myself, and find it a troublesome problem in the human race, of which, of course, we all belong. I love America because it grants the freedom for people to compete in the marketplace of ideas and images. I am not saying, with Rodney King, "why can't we all just get along," but I do wish the "us against them locked in mortal combat" would give way to a more civil debate where we at least attempt to understand the other person's viewpoint, even if we deeply disagree with it. I have seen what you saw at your campus. To me, intolerance and superiority complexes are ugly on any side of the fence.

[More Cowbell]

To me, intolerance and superiority complexes are ugly on any side of the fence.

I think we can agree completely on this one, cavemaster.

[WheelsNdaSky]

Don't you get it? Mercy doesn't ask whether the person is worthy or not, innocent or not. You believe in helping those who, through no fault of their own, have problems. That is o.k. However, it is not Christian in nature. That is all I am saying. The story makes no comment about how Lazarus came to be a beggar. The rich man had his good things in this life. The beggar had his bad things. At the end, there was a great reversal, as the last were first and the first were last. I just wish that people would stop pretending that "god" is on their side, irregardless of political party.

It is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick. You don't get sick by imposing it on yourself. If so, then we help by getting you better and then teach you how to better care for yourself. In the case of credit card users, I could support a one-time bailout for mortgages and credit cards. People make bad decisions. However, they cannot consistently rely on being bailed out so they must grow in knowledge fincancially to make better decisions. I think if they receive a bailout they should have to make a commitment to attend a financial course of some kind or attain some kind of financial education as a result.

In comparing to christian views, salvation is the bailout for us by God. But He doesn't just allow us to go on living in sin. Jesus constantly said, 'Go and sin no more." God wants us to build character in our lives. He also holds us accountable for the decisions we make. And we ought to be very thankful for the second chance that we do build humility and character. It is the same case with a bailout for debt. It would be okay for a one time bailout. But don't make the same mistakes and get yourself back into debt by blindly spending or you'll be on your own.