[Beetle01]

Lets not get off topic, lets not try and bring up other candidates or spew right wing extremists because someone questions a couple of things Obama has proposed. Lets try and keep this thread civil, which probably means DW may not be able to post here. JKJK I know he's capable of being civil if he limits those cups of coffee in the morning.

My first question is does anyone buy into the 3000 dollar tax credit for businesses that hire new full time employees with benefits? I mean does anyone see this as anything other than a ploy? I don't know what the average full time employee makes but I would imagine its somewhere around the 30-40 mark, so 3000 dollars isn't going to entice anyone to make any hires. Its just a political ploy.

[DevilsWin]

I agree. Political Ploy!

[Beetle01]

tax cut for 95% of tax payers? Political ploy?

[DevilsWin]

tax cut for 95% of tax payers? Political ploy?

Only time will tell.

[Beetle01]

Only time will tell.

Well its impossible for 95% of taxpayers to get a tax break, here's a breakdown of the taxes, if anyone should get a break its the top class.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The top 10% paid $724,740,000,000 in tax while the next 40% only paid in $268,436,000,000. The remaining 50% only paid $30,563,000.

[DevilsWin]

Well its impossible for 95% of taxpayers to get a tax break, here's a breakdown of the taxes, if anyone should get a break its the top class.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The top 10% paid $724,740,000,000 in tax while the next 40% only paid in $268,436,000,000. The remaining 50% only paid $30,563,000.

724 trillion???? Boy We sure could use that money right now!

[Beetle01]

724 trillion???? Boy We sure could use that money right now!

LOL thats billion not trillion. This would be 724 trillion
724,000,000,000,000

[Beetle01]

ALso the bottom 50% pay about 30 million in taxes, but Obama's welfare plan aka tax credit would return to them 35 billion dollars.

Seems to me thats atleast 35 billion dollars more than the American people should be paying in taxes. Lets keep that money in the hands of the people who earned it.

[BIGREDDAWG]

95% of people can't get tax breaks because 95% don't pay taxes. If this were true their would be money going to people who never pay a dime of taxes. This is definitely a political ploy.

[DevilsWin]

LOL thats billion not trillion. This would be 724 trillion
724,000,000,000,000

oops

[Beetle01]

Okay so we've established that 2 of his economic policies are nothing but ploys and lies.

Obama's helthcare plan which is a mirror of those in effect in Europe has shown to erode helthcare in those countries, why should we do the same to ours?

[thecavemaster]

Okay so we've established that 2 of his economic policies are nothing but ploys and lies.

Obama's helthcare plan which is a mirror of those in effect in Europe has shown to erode helthcare in those countries, why should we do the same to ours?

"...the average man once more confronts the problem that faced the Minute Man: a small group has concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, over people's money, other people's labor--other people's lives." FDR speaking of economic tyranny practiced by the mega corporate elites, the very small % of very powerful people who have a VERY large share of the world's resources. Your pettiness, Beetle 01, is tiresome. The men in the shadows who tell us who are enemies are. The ones who sit in board rooms and gather for the feast. The ones who send other people's sons to war. ALL politicians often bow the knee to these economic tyrants. "Ploys and lies"? Cap guns don't bring down elephants.

[Beetle01]

"...the average man once more confronts the problem that faced the Minute Man: a small group has concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, over people's money, other people's labor--other people's lives." FDR speaking of economic tyranny practiced by the mega corporate elites, the very small % of very powerful people who have a VERY large share of the world's resources. Your pettiness, Beetle 01, is tiresome. The men in the shadows who tell us who are enemies are. The ones who sit in board rooms and gather for the feast. The ones who send other people's sons to war. ALL politicians often bow the knee to these economic tyrants. "Ploys and lies"? Cap guns don't bring down elephants.

Anymore one liners, or are you just like all Obama supporters who will just ignore his policy of lying about what he will do, just because you hate corporate America and George Bush. How will you like it if one of your older family member becomes ill and can't recieve healthcare because they are deemed too old and costly? This is what happens in Europe, don't tell me it doesn't, I have friends who live there and tell me first hand they hate their healthcare system and can't wait for it to collapse so it will become more like America's today.

So since your uncapable of discussing actual politics, maybe you should stay out of this thread.

[thecavemaster]

Anymore one liners, or are you just like all Obama supporters who will just ignore his policy of lying about what he will do, just because you hate corporate America and George Bush. How will you like it if one of your older family member becomes ill and can't recieve healthcare because they are deemed too old and costly? This is what happens in Europe, don't tell me it doesn't, I have friends who live there and tell me first hand they hate their healthcare system and can't wait for it to collapse so it will become more like America's today.

So since your uncapable of discussing actual politics, maybe you should stay out of this thread.

Angry? Like McCain? Could I not speak with people in Canada who love their healthcare system? Of course I could. I am not incapable; your suggestion is noted about the thread, though.

[Beetle01]

Angry? Like McCain? Could I not speak with people in Canada who love their healthcare system? Of course I could. I am not incapable; your suggestion is noted about the thread, though.

Like I said you add nothing to the political discussion. If your an advocate of national healthcare maybe you could list some of the pros and cons of it. Or do you know nothing of it? Of course a non tax payer like yourself would probably be ok taxing all of our business to death so that millions upon millions of illegal immigrants can have health insurance. Its not going to cost you anything.

[thecavemaster]

Like I said you add nothing to the political discussion. If your an advocate of national healthcare maybe you could list some of the pros and cons of it. Or do you know nothing of it? Of course a non tax payer like yourself would probably be ok taxing all of our business to death so that millions upon millions of illegal immigrants can have health insurance. Its not going to cost you anything.

I pay taxes. Your assumptions continue to be troublesome. Universal healthcare does not threaten your choice of coverage under Obama's plan. Emergency rooms are expensive. The savings is an advantage. Why do you need to believe that people who disagree with you know nothing of the issues?

[Beetle01]

I pay taxes. Your assumptions continue to be troublesome. Universal healthcare does not threaten your choice of coverage under Obama's plan. Emergency rooms are expensive. The savings is an advantage. Why do you need to believe that people who disagree with you know nothing of the issues?

you pay taxes? I find that hard to believe you don't recieve every dime back on your income taxes.

[thecavemaster]

you pay taxes? I find that hard to believe you don't recieve every dime back on your income taxes.

Property taxes? Car taxes? Utility taxes? Gasoline taxes? Insults might shut others up, and while it is a lowest common denominator tactic, and is not relevant, you do what you have to do.

[Beetle01]

Property taxes? Car taxes? Utility taxes? Gasoline taxes? Insults might shut others up, and while it is a lowest common denominator tactic, and is not relevant, you do what you have to do.

We are not talking about all the taxes everyone pays, that are the same rate.

This is about income taxes, taxing someone a higher percentage because they earn more money, and more than likely worked harder to get where they are, or atleast did the right things in getting an education or starting a business to attain a well paying job, so that they can provide better for their family, not yours.

[thecavemaster]

We are not talking about all the taxes everyone pays, that are the same rate.

This is about income taxes, taxing someone a higher percentage because they earn more money, and more than likely worked harder to get where they are, or atleast did the right things in getting an education or starting a business to attain a well paying job, so that they can provide better for their family, not yours.

I am going to take it that you are using "yours" in the general sense. The majority of working poor people work just as hard as higher income folks, maybe harder. How do you answer the "milk, bread and eggs" idea?

[Beetle01]

I am going to take it that you are using "yours" in the general sense. The majority of working poor people work just as hard as higher income folks, maybe harder. How do you answer the "milk, bread and eggs" idea?

What milk, bread and eggs idea? So what if it costs them more? Its not the resposibility of the people next door just because they make more money than me to make sure I have milk, bread, and eggs. If I don't have those things, then I'm gonna have to go find a way to make more money to cover my costs. Its also not my fault if some 45y/o guy who got his gf pregnant after Hs had to get a job and didn't work towards anything by taking college courses to obtain a degree and improve his lifestyle and working circumstances. Instead he just stayed in the same dead end job and now wants others who did do the things they should have to ensure they have enough money for milk bread and eggs to also buy his.

[thecavemaster]

What milk, bread and eggs idea? So what if it costs them more? Its not the resposibility of the people next door just because they make more money than me to make sure I have milk, bread, and eggs. If I don't have those things, then I'm gonna have to go find a way to make more money to cover my costs. Its also not my fault if some 45y/o guy who got his gf pregnant after Hs had to get a job and didn't work towards anything by taking college courses to obtain a degree and improve his lifestyle and working circumstances. Instead he just stayed in the same dead end job and now wants others who did do the things they should have to ensure they have enough money for milk bread and eggs to also buy his.

I believe in progressive taxation. It is fairly plain that you believe in a "tooth and claw" universe, where the fittest survive, where the lone individual has an absolute obligation. While I believe in individuality, independence, I also believe strongly in community, in interdependence.

[Beetle01]

I believe in progressive taxation. It is fairly plain that you believe in a "tooth and claw" universe, where the fittest survive, where the lone individual has an absolute obligation. While I believe in individuality, independence, I also believe strongly in community, in interdependence.

SOTF is what we need more of in this world. If you want the wealthy people to give out more money, then work hard, create a business, see that it succeeds and then give all your money away. Don't try and tell other what they should do with theirs.

[thecavemaster]

SOTF is what we need more of in this world. If you want the wealthy people to give out more money, then work hard, create a business, see that it succeeds and then give all your money away. Don't try and tell other what they should do with theirs.

I teach, that is my "calling" so to speak. I don't begrudge the business man who makes more money in a month that I will make all year. I do believe in progressive taxation, not as a matter of bossing someone around, but as a matter of societal justice. I believe welfare is not good for society or the individuals in it either.

[Beetle01]

I teach, that is my "calling" so to speak. I don't begrudge the business man who makes more money in a month that I will make all year. I do believe in progressive taxation, not as a matter of bossing someone around, but as a matter of societal justice. I believe welfare is not good for society or the individuals in it either.

Justice for who?

[thecavemaster]

Justice for who?

As I understand it, in the OT, those landowners who had crops were not to harvest to the edges: those edges were left to the poor, who did have to work to harvest them. Apparently, the Judaeo/Christian "god" has a providential concern for the poor (see the rich man and the poor beggar) which he or she interprets as justice. Apparently, the blessings of wealth carry with them a certain obligation to care for the less fortunate. Of course, neither party appeals to the christian god at all.

[Beetle01]

As I understand it, in the OT, those landowners who had crops were not to harvest to the edges: those edges were left to the poor, who did have to work to harvest them. Apparently, the Judaeo/Christian "god" has a providential concern for the poor (see the rich man and the poor beggar) which he or she interprets as justice. Apparently, the blessings of wealth carry with them a certain obligation to care for the less fortunate. Of course, neither party appeals to the christian god at all.

I agree, those with money should be more giving to those who are needy. Thats not my point. My point is it shouldn't be institutionalized by the Govt.

[thecavemaster]

I agree, those with money should be more giving to those who are needy. Thats not my point. My point is it shouldn't be institutionalized by the Govt.

I knew a Catholic priest who had been taking confessions for forty-four years. He said: "I've heard all sins confessed to except greed." I do not think "leaving the gleanings" can be allowed to be a matter of individual large heartedness for the above story as reason.

[Beetle01]

I knew a Catholic priest who had been taking confessions for forty-four years. He said: "I've heard all sins confessed to except greed." I do not think "leaving the gleanings" can be allowed to be a matter of individual large heartedness for the above story as reason.

Well since you knew a Catholic Priest, I guess we should base our federal tax policy on that.

[thecavemaster]

Well since you knew a Catholic Priest, I guess we should base our federal tax policy on that.

If we base economic policy on the fact that, other things being equal, human beings will tend toward avarice, I would agree. By the way, in another of your arguments, you suggested you know several people in the healthcare profession. Based on that, if I recall, you suggested you were some sort of authority on the issue. How quickly we forget.