[Stardust]

No it's not a joke, but I admit I was toying for an answer. I know who he is and what he said. I was just seeing what kind of response I could get to prove a point, and I have just exactly what I thought I would get as a response. About all I can see anybody come up with so far is that he was just a man, a plain and simple human. No different than you or I, who had nothing but a "THEORY". I thought you said you had proof?



"He was a brilliant man, one of the greatest minds in history."

Adolph Hitler has been described with those exact same words .

Excellent! :Thumbs:

[Stardust]

The nonbelievers are saying there are all kinds of "facts and evidence" that there is no God of any kind.

Where are the facts and evidence??

How about quit saying there is facts and evidence and just tell us what exactly it is??

This is why I like ya' kid!!!!:Thumbs:

[Wildcatk23]

Well one fact would be that you have never seen him, just my opinion,

[TheRealVille]

The nonbelievers are saying there are all kinds of "facts and evidence" that there is no God of any kind.

Where are the facts and evidence??

How about quit saying there is facts and evidence and just tell us what exactly it is??

With all due respect ODM, it is our job to prove our stance. The non believers don't have anything to prove. The weight falls on the believers to prove a force that isn't visible, is really there. As to all the prophesies, they can't be proven either, since man wrote the Bible and could have very well put whatever he wanted, if what we believe isn't true. I can't prove it, so I don't try. If God holds me accountable for proving or telling about something for which I have no proof really exists, I guess I'm doomed. All I can do is live the most honest life I know how and help people when I can.

[outdoorsman43]

With all due respect ODM, it is our job to prove our stance. The non believers don't have anything to prove. The weight falls on the believers to prove a force that isn't visible, is really there. As to all the prophesies, they can't be proven either, since man wrote the Bible and could have very well put whatever he wanted, if what we believe isn't true. I can't prove it, so I don't try. If God holds me accountable for proving or telling about something for which I have no proof really exists, I guess I'm doomed. All I can do is live the most honest life I know how and help people when I can.

I understand where you're coming from here and agree.

All I am saying is the nonbelievers continue to say they have proof that there is no God, where is it?

[Wildcatk23]

There is more proof of this god not existing then what there is of him existing,

Now i dont question your faith, what you believe is great for you, im happy for you, but i tend to put my faith in stuff that i know is real.

[RF81]

There is no truth to that statement at all, none. There has never been proof that one creature can convert to another. You may be confusing yourself with adpatation, which is not evolution.

By those that don't believe in Creationism, which is considered fact by those who don't believe in Evolution!

Mutation is part of evolution if I'm not mistaken, adaptation too, it has many cornerstones that explain it. I'm pretty sure "common descent" has proven to exist, yes there is proof of that.

But creationism isn't backed up by anything, you said yourself it's solely faith. I'll take evolution over the story of Adam and Eve any day. Like I said, it's a nice story and all, but not fact based.

No it's not a joke, but I admit I was toying for an answer. I know who he is and what he said. I was just seeing what kind of response I could get to prove a point, and I have just exactly what I thought I would get as a response. About all I can see anybody come up with so far is that he was just a man, a plain and simple human. No different than you or I, who had nothing but a "THEORY". I thought you said you had proof?



"He was a brilliant man, one of the greatest minds in history."

Adolph Hitler has been described with those exact same words .

You're confusing a "philosophical theory" - an idea - with a scientic theory that is rigorously tested in order for it to even be considered a theory. It's withstood the test of time.


And though I don't like that argument, I'll ask....how is that statement about Hitler wrong? He was brilliant, an evil person of course, but the man was brilliant to have done what he did.

[outdoorsman43]

There is more proof of this god not existing then what there is of him existing,

Now i dont question your faith, what you believe is great for you, im happy for you, but i tend to put my faith in stuff that i know is real.

The proof of God is in the faith that one possesses. Nonbelievers don't understand and will not understand until they accept the Lord. Like RV says, there is no physical proof of God and I agree.

You say there is no proof of Him, since you know what the evidence is, why don't you tell us exactly what it is?

[RF81]

The proof of God is in the faith that one possesses. Nonbelievers don't understand and will not understand until they accept the Lord. Like RV says, there is no physical proof of God and I agree.

You say there is no proof of Him, since you know what the evidence is, why don't you tell us exactly what it is?

What's considered a non-believer in your opinion? Just an atheist? Agnostics are non-believers and so is anyone who doesn't believe in your God. A muslim is a non-believer in Christianity, a Buddhist is etc etc. While Christianity is the lasrgest religion in the world, there are still 4 billion that don't believe in it.



And he never said there is "no proof", he said there is more proof against it than for it. Sorta like "It doesn't look good for God and the home team when the facts are set side by side"

[Deathstar 80]

With all due respect ODM, it is our job to prove our stance. The non believers don't have anything to prove. The weight falls on the believers to prove a force that isn't visible, is really there. As to all the prophesies, they can't be proven either, since man wrote the Bible and could have very well put whatever he wanted, if what we believe isn't true. I can't prove it, so I don't try. If God holds me accountable for proving or telling about something for which I have no proof really exists, I guess I'm doomed. All I can do is live the most honest life I know how and help people when I can.

Actually, the "weight" is on the evolutionists. If I said there was no gold in China, then I would have to search every corner, in every ring, etc. to make sure there wasn't any gold. If I happened to find a single speck of gold during my search, then that's proof there's gold in China.

Same concept with God. If someone says there is no God, then they have to search the entire universe to make sure there isn't any proof of God. If they find any proof of God in their search, then that proves that God exists.

Also, could you explain about the prophecies? I don't think I'm completely understanding what you meant.

[TheRealVille]

Actually, the "weight" is on the evolutionists. If I said there was no gold in China, then I would have to search every corner, in every ring, etc. to make sure there wasn't any gold. If I happened to find a single speck of gold during my search, then that's proof there's gold in China.

Same concept with God. If someone says there is no God, then they have to search the entire universe to make sure there isn't any proof of God. If they find any proof of God in their search, then that proves that God exists.

[U]Also, could you explain about the prophecies? I don't think I'm completely understanding what you meant[/U].

Actually no, they don't have to prove something that they can't see isn't there. They can't see anything. They believe what they can't see isn't there. They really do have the better argument. They don't believe in something they can't see, whereas, the believer believes in something he can't see. What I meant about that prophesies statement, if there actually was no God, and the Bible is just a man made object, he could write anything that would coincide with what was happening.

Playing the proverbial devils advocate here.

[RF81]

Actually, the "weight" is on the evolutionists. If I said there was no gold in China, then I would have to search every corner, in every ring, etc. to make sure there wasn't any gold. If I happened to find a single speck of gold during my search, then that's proof there's gold in China.

Same concept with God. If someone says there is no God, then they have to search the entire universe to make sure there isn't any proof of God. If they find any proof of God in their search, then that proves that God exists.

I know this wasn't for me, but I'll add something. That argument is completely apples and oranges.

God was never proven to exist in the first place, it was said, everyone believed it without questioning. Believers have never proved he exists, therefore there is no burden of proof on our part. No one has ever seen God, no one who wrote the Bible ever met God - or ever met Jesus for that matter. It's just a very old claim by some old men, there's no evidence on the believers part to discredit.

[Deathstar 80]

What I meant about that, if there actually was no God, and the Bible is just a man made object, he could write anything that would coincide with what was happening.

Playing the proverbial devils advocate here.

Now I understand. You have a good point, but what if the prophecies are hundreds of years apart from the actual event. Look at the prophecy about Israel. I quoted a few Bible verses earlier, but I can't remember them now. I think they're on page 13 of this thread. The fact is that the Bible predicted for Israel to be remade (it was conquered by Assyria), and it was remade in 1948. There are many other prophecies that I haven't listed (you probably already know that).

[TheRealVille]

Same concept with God. If someone says there is no God, then they have to search the entire universe to make sure there isn't any proof of God. If they find any proof of God in their search, then that proves that God exists.

Flip flop that and what do you have? God can't be proven with absolute certainity, so where do we stand in your analogy?

BTW, I like that this is a very civil discussion. I'm just trying to come up with some questions the agnostic or atheist might ask. You know, "sharpen iron with iron".

[Wildcatk23]

The proof of God is in the faith that one possesses. Nonbelievers don't understand and will not understand until they accept the Lord. Like RV says, there is no physical proof of God and I agree.

You say there is no proof of Him, since you know what the evidence is, why don't you tell us exactly what it is?

Heres some proof, IMO,

God is a character in a book fo fairy tales. The same book also states that the earth is flat, donkeys can talk, people can live in the stomachs of whales, and the moon is a source of light.
All of that is clearly nonsense.
So the book cannot be taken as evidence of anything real.

Example:
Shake the Earth by Its Edges
"take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)
How could the earth be held by its "edges"? A sphere has no edges. Would the Job author have spoken of "edges" of the earth if he had known the earth was a sphere? Which makes more sense? The author imagined grabbing and shaking by the edges a flat earth, or the author imagined grabbing the ball of the earth by "edges" which don't exist?

The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)

The "whole" earth? No matter how tall the tree was, even if it was only a dream, it would not have been visible from the other side of the earth.


2. I don’t believe in a religious expectation of a god because

There is no tangible evidence, the words and books of man are not evidence of anything other than man can speak and write down their words

There are no measurable effects, and if there was a being the magnitude of a ‘god’, there would definitely be effects on our universe, on our world,
And if there was a being such as a god, the effects would be emmence

[RF81]

How many prophecies never happened?


I could make many vague predictions..."The cowboys will win it all one day" Might be true, but I never said when and odds are they'll win one the next few hundred years.

[Stardust]

Mutation is part of evolution if I'm not mistaken, adaptation too, it has many cornerstones that explain it. I'm pretty sure "common descent" has proven to exist, yes there is proof of that.

But creationism isn't backed up by anything, you said yourself it's solely faith. I'll take evolution over the story of Adam and Eve any day. Like I said, it's a nice story and all, but not fact based.


.

It has not! It is still thoery. The Thoery comes from fossil records, the same as Dinosaur's come from fossil records. There is no link. The link is, and this is the part that you are still not getting, the link is the DNA thread that MUST (not my words) be in every form of life. That common thread DOES NOT EXIST. So, where does it come from. The only theory that could prove itself is that each species started at the same time. Thus, a single thread of DNA had to simultaneously appear for each common species (Fowl, Mammal, Plant, Insect, Fish, etc...) meaning all of these cells for each type of lifeform had to happen all at one time. Hmm, that sounds more like creationism than any possible theory that one single life cell, that would be common in all life, created, mutated and then disappeared???????

[TheRealVille]

If I remember correctly, in studying, I think Job is the oldest known book from the Bible. Maybe if that was the first book actually written, there might be some clue there for God's existence.

[Stardust]

How many prophecies never happened?


I could make many vague predictions..."The cowboys will win it all one day" Might be true, but I never said when and odds are they'll win one the next few hundred years.

You mean yet, right?

[Deathstar 80]

I know this wasn't for me, but I'll add something. That argument is completely apples and oranges.

God was never proven to exist in the first place, it was said, everyone believed it without questioning. Believers have never proved he exists, therefore there is no burden of proof on our part. No one has ever seen God, no one who wrote the Bible ever met God - or ever met Jesus for that matter. It's just a very old claim by some old men, there's no evidence on the believers part to discredit.

But you wouldn't deny that what I said was right. Doesn't it make since logically? If I said there was no gold in China and you found a speck of gold in China, then that would automatically prove me wrong. Also, you would have to consider what if God did exist in the beginning, then that would give a very good reason for people to believe in a God without reasoning. I prefer to not argue to anyone about facts proving and disproving the existence of God. I told you earlier that since we don't know everything, we're practically gambling on the answer. Therefore, you can't look at the facts. Instead, look at everything else.

Also, why would those old men claim such a story. Do you know that every disciple (except for John and Judas Iscariot) died a martyr's death? What was their motivation? They had to have known the truth, or at least were willing to gamble their life to believe it.

[TheRealVille]

Also, why would those old men claim such a story. Do you know that every disciple (except for John and Judas Iscariot) died a martyr's death? What was their motivation? They had to have known the truth, or at least were willing to gamble their life to believe it.

So, you are asking if they be would die for something that they didn't see, or was maybe a lie? I don't think they would. This is my best and only proof I ever thought of over the years. Would these guys die for something that they hadn't seen with their own eyes? This is where my answer of, no they wouldn't comes from. Albeit the non believer or agnostic could come back with, "Muslims die everyday for a God they can't see", and I'm left back in another hole.


Wife wants the computer. Will join back in later or tomorrow

[Deathstar 80]

Heres some proof, IMO,

God is a character in a book fo fairy tales. The same book also states that the earth is flat, donkeys can talk, people can live in the stomachs of whales, and the moon is a source of light.
All of that is clearly nonsense.
So the book cannot be taken as evidence of anything real.

Example:
Shake the Earth by Its Edges
"take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)
How could the earth be held by its "edges"? A sphere has no edges. Would the Job author have spoken of "edges" of the earth if he had known the earth was a sphere? Which makes more sense? The author imagined grabbing and shaking by the edges a flat earth, or the author imagined grabbing the ball of the earth by "edges" which don't exist?

The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)

The "whole" earth? No matter how tall the tree was, even if it was only a dream, it would not have been visible from the other side of the earth.


2. I don’t believe in a religious expectation of a god because

There is no tangible evidence, the words and books of man are not evidence of anything other than man can speak and write down their words

There are no measurable effects, and if there was a being the magnitude of a ‘god’, there would definitely be effects on our universe, on our world,
And if there was a being such as a god, the effects would be emmence

About the bible saying the Earth is flat, I believe it talks about in Genesis of the "edges" of the Garden of Eden. It could be a figure of speech. About the tree, read the verse before that:

Daniel 4:9 "O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof."

The tree was in a dream. It wasn't real.

Also, (I don't mean to be picky) the moon is a source of light. It reflects the light off of the sun.

[RF81]

It has not! It is still thoery. The Thoery comes from fossil records, the same as Dinosaur's come from fossil records. There is no link. The link is, and this is the part that you are still not getting, the link is the DNA thread that MUST (not my words) be in every form of life. That common thread DOES NOT EXIST. So, where does it come from. The only theory that could prove itself is that each species started at the same time. Thus, a single thread of DNA had to simultaneously appear for each common species (Fowl, Mammal, Plant, Insect, Fish, etc...) meaning all of these cells for each type of lifeform had to happen all at one time. Hmm, that sounds more like creationism than any possible theory that one single life cell, that would be common in all life, created, mutated and then disappeared???????

It's not because they can't produce it, it's a very, very long process...longer than we've been around of course and certainly couldn't be observed as it happened. Fossil records are the only thing to go by, which there are plenty that are waiting to be discovered. Again, a theory is fact in science until proven otherwise...there is no "missing link" that will change it from being a theory.

[Jarons]

Ever heard of laminin? Laminin is the cell that is vital in making sure our body structures work together. In other words, it is what holds us together. Laminin is shaped like a cross. I tried inserting a picture of laminin from google images, but had no luck. Look up the picture and see for yourself. God really does have a sense of humor.

[Hilbily]

Am i real???????????????????

[RF81]

Also, why would those old men claim such a story. Do you know that every disciple (except for John and Judas Iscariot) died a martyr's death? What was their motivation? They had to have known the truth, or at least were willing to gamble their life to believe it.

People have died for God since God was ever come up with, these men also never wrote the Bible...it's all passed down from them supposedly. It's opiate for the masses, goes to the "give them a lie, make it big. " You convince someone of something like that, you control them, it's no accident that God always seemed to meet with them in private. Jesus's bio is too much like others before him, everyone likes Jesus though.

[Jarons]

Attempting another image hope this works.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/lamin...inin2.jpg>
Just scroll through you will see real photographs.

[Wildcatk23]

Am i real???????????????????

Well yes i believe you are

[Deathstar 80]

People have died for God since God was ever come up with, these men also never wrote the Bible...it's all passed down from them supposedly. It's opiate for the masses, goes to the "give them a lie, make it big. " You convince someone of something like that, you control them, it's no accident that God always seemed to meet with them in private. Jesus's bio is too much like others before him, everyone likes Jesus though.

Look at Paul. He wrote books like 1st and 2nd Corinthians, Romans, etc. The Bible claims Paul seen Jesus while he was going to Damascus. You might suspect him of "acting", yet he was beheaded as a result of his faith. Peter the disciple also died a martyr's death, being crucified for his faith.

[Deathstar 80]

Attempting another image hope this works.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/lamin...inin2.jpg>
Just scroll through you will see real photographs.

I thought that was very interesting. Thanks.