[Stardust]

These things have happened, war, earthquakes, pestilence, children disobedient to parents, people turning away from God, but never on the grand scale that it is today. We still don't know how far we are off, just that we are getting to the point that it is getting so bad that the earth is being destroyed, heck, the US is going to the dogs, so it is definitely getting closer.

It does make a religious person wonder how much worse can it get....

[TheRealVille]

It does make a religious person wonder how much worse can it get....

About the same as it's been for centuries.

[Stardust]

About the same as it's been for centuries.

And could be for more. But I won't be around for the next century, so I won't take any chances for now.....

[Deathstar 80]

How?

-TheRealVille

I admit that I've never experienced any big, life changing events that proved to me that God was there, but I have went through hard times. It was during these hard times that God comforted me and I was to remind myself to follow his (God's) will despite the hard time. I'm pretty sure that I posted in this thread earlier that I always wondered how unsaved people could live. I know this seems kind of cliche' to say, but I really don't think I could live without God. The thought honestly horrifies me.

People in the 30-'s and 40's were saying the same thing. People have been saying the end is near for centuries. Paul thought the end would happen in his lifetime.

They were saying the same thing, but that was before Israel was born, the world went farther into sin, etc.

I' didn't make up my mind because of those fake-Christians, I just don't believe it altogether. I've met some great Christian people, but I've also met some "Better-than" Christians...I'm sure you know which ones I'm talking about.

The "Better-than" Christians, are they "prideful" Christians? Do you think they think of themselves as being more righteous than others? Or are you talking about a completely different type of Christian? If I'm right, then you shouldn't make your decision because of them. As I said earlier, look at the Bible and then make your decision. If a building is on fire and a person who thinks he's running to the door is actually running away from the door, would it make sense to follow him? Of course not. You yourself should run to the door despite the other person, and on the way, you can redirect that other person into running to the door with you. Therefore, you can both be saved.

By the way, I figured out a few things. I said earlier:

We (as the human race) probably don't know anything compared to all of the knowledge in the universe.

That's not my exact words, but what I meant was that we can't make a judgment on anything, because before you can make a judgment, you must know everything. Yet, as I said in my quote, we don't know everything, and therefore, we can't be absolutely sure (as in 100% accurate) what is fact and what isn't. I talked to a philosopher about this, and he said, "I'm not sure if you need to know everything to know something."

Also, we all said that Jesus did exist, but I've heard that there's evidence not only for the existence of Jesus but also against it.

I've told you this stuff even though it goes against the Bible, but please listen to me when I say that I know the Bible tells the truth. As the Bible says, everyone has to give their lives to God and to repent of their sins to be saved.

[mrsportsfan]

I just don't understand how someone can look at the process of creating a child, how that is designed, chromosones split off time and time again until, fingers and toes, and a brain, and hands, and all the right things are formed and the time comes that the growing term is complete and the body starts the process of going into labor and pushing the baby out. Then the mother has the ability to start producing food for her child at that time. I'm sorry, it takes a creator to get all those things straight not a evolution process.

[TheRealVille]

I just don't understand how someone can look at the process of creating a child, how that is designed, chromosones split off time and time again until, fingers and toes, and a brain, and hands, and all the right things are formed and the time comes that the growing term is complete and the body starts the process of going into labor and pushing the baby out. Then the mother has the ability to start producing food for her child at that time. I'm sorry, it takes a creator to get all those things straight not a evolution process.

You a Christian?

[Deathstar 80]

I just don't understand how someone can look at the process of creating a child, how that is designed, chromosones split off time and time again until, fingers and toes, and a brain, and hands, and all the right things are formed and the time comes that the growing term is complete and the body starts the process of going into labor and pushing the baby out. Then the mother has the ability to start producing food for her child at that time. I'm sorry, it takes a creator to get all those things straight not a evolution process.

You have a point. I find the human body to be very complicated to learn about. I then ask myself, "If the body is this complicated, then how could evolution randomly make such a complex thing?". I would think (even with millions or billions of years of evolution) that it would be virtually impossible for the complex human body to be randomly made, ever.

[jackets]

You have a point. I find the human body to be very complicated to learn about. I then ask myself, "If the body is this complicated, then how could evolution randomly make such a complex thing?". I would think (even with millions or billions of years of evolution) that it would be virtually impossible for the complex human body to be randomly made, ever.

"Deathstar" your posts are right on target. God is great, so great that we cannot understand everything but must have faith and accept Jesus as his son and our savior. Someday when we all face judgment if we have accepted Jesus as our savor and kept the faith we will get to know more in heaven.

For those who believe in evolution (which means as the demand changes the needs to meet the new means is adjusted through evolution {simple to complex) keep this in mind if this were true then don't worry about the gas shortage because if we wait long enough after we no longer have transportation do to the gas shortage, we will change our bodies to be able to run as fast as a car, fly like a bird and swim like a fish. Oh by the way I don't believe in the evolution theory.

[vundy33]

Woah...this thread has been around for like 2 years.

BTW, any Catholics on here? I know there isn't many in Pike County, where I'm from.

[rc242]

It's about choice and faith. Yes, if you are a believer then you live your faith based on Bible teachings. The Bible teaches that if you are a non-beleiver you will perish (which means be eternally ****ed). So, it is fair for a believer to accept this doctrine. Is it right? It's right for that believer.

It's the same with other faiths and doctrines. Muslims, Budhasts, etc.. all have their own beliefs and believe that the other faiths or non-beleivers will suffer the same fate. So, this is nothing new in history.

For those who accept evolution, then that is their right. Is it wrong? Not to them?

You should feel comfortable with your own faiths and beleifs. If you are, then you prepare yourself for whatever happens after this life. Let's face it, there are a lot of faiths and religions. SOMEBODY is WRONG! Who? Not my battle, I have to do what is right for me and my family.

I'm a Christian. I beleive in teaching those who wish to hear the message. Too often on this and other message boards, folks want to beat somebody up verbally for their faith or beliefs. Many of those profess to be Christians. If any of them would do as their teacher Christ did, things would be much more civil. Jesus never hit anyone over the head with a rock to them them they were wrong, nor should we.

great post stardust...i have heard many people try to say this same thing, but none any better than this!!!!

[TheRealVille]

"Deathstar" your posts are right on target. God is great, so great that we cannot understand everything but must have faith and accept Jesus as his son and our savior. Someday when we all face judgment if we have accepted Jesus as our savor and kept the faith we will get to know more in heaven.

For those who believe in evolution (which means as the demand changes the needs to meet the new means is adjusted through evolution {simple to complex) keep this in mind if this were true then don't worry about the gas shortage because if we wait long enough after we no longer have transportation do to the gas shortage, we will change our bodies to be able to run as fast as a car, fly like a bird and swim like a fish. Oh by the way I don't believe in the evolution theory.

Another idiot type anology.

[TheRealVille]

You have a point. I find the human body to be very complicated to learn about. I then ask myself, "If the body is this complicated, then how could evolution randomly make such a complex thing?". I would think (even with millions or billions of years of evolution) that it would be virtually impossible for the complex human body to be randomly made, ever.

Yet, here it is.

[Mr.Kimball]

Another idiot type anology.

You having a bad day? :biggrin:

[Squid]

... There's many more factors, so please give your opinions on whether or not there has to be a God based on all of those highly unprobable natural occurances, not just "I believe there is a God."

When God decides to provide us with emprical evidence of His existence, I'll believe. Until then, I'll remain a devout agnostic.

Your assertion that the "unprobable natural occurrences" confirms the existence of God is a misapplication (and probable misunderstanding) of statistics.

[catwoman]

Is it not ironic that its mostly the college educated that dont believe in God. Very sad. College professors,,well some of them are like a cancer in our society.

[Matman]

St. Thomas Aquinas offered five theories that he said served as proof of God's existence. Aquinas is one of the most influential philosophers since Aristotle. I figured his thourgts would be interesting to people on this forum.

The Argument of the Unmoved Mover or Change
Aquinas claims that the existence of God can be proved by considering the concept of change. In the process, change must be caused by change, also caused by something other than itself, and so on, ad infinitum.
Clearly, there must be something which is the cause of all change, but which itself does not undergo change. The first mover, Aquinas concludes, is God.

The Argument of the First Cause
Aquinas notes that causes always operate in series, however, there must be a first cause of the series, or else, there can't be a series at all.
Like the First Way, the Second Way proceeds on the assumption that a thing cannot cause itself. His conclusion, therefore, is that there is a thing which does cause itself, which is God.
Critics and other philosophers have criticized this form of arguing as confused, since the proposition that appears to be proven in the conclusion is the very same proposition denied in the argument.

The Argument from Contingency
Aquinas notes that worldly things come to be and pass away but then not everything can be like this, for then there would have been time when nothing existed. But if that were true then nothing could have ever come to being, since something cannot come from nothing. Therefore something must have always existed, and this is God.

The Argument from Degree
Aquinas offers a version of the Ontological Argument. He notes that some things exhibit varying degrees of in terms of quality. For example, a thing may be more-or-less hot or more-or-less cold. Such varying degrees of quality are caused by something that contains the most or perfect amount of that quality. That which is most good is, which of course, is God.

The Teleological Argument
In this last Way, Aquinas relies on Aristotle's notion of "telos" or purpose, that is, all things aim towards some ultimate goal or end. However, to be guided by a purpose or a goal implies a mind that directs that purpose.
According to Aquinas that director once again is God. Versions of Aquinas's cosmological and ontological arguments are still accepted by the Catholic Church. This is also known as design.

The first, second and third Ways of Aquinas's arguments are variations of a more general argument, the Cosmological Argument. Summa synthesized all human knowledge by reconciling Aristotle and Christianity.



Read more: http://great-philosophers.suite101.com/a...z0TSD5Q8Ns

[Matman]

Is it not ironic that its mostly the college educated that dont believe in God. Very sad. College professors,,well some of them are like a cancer in our society.

That is not true. I'm college educated and do believe in God. I was reading Plato's The Republic one day and someone asked me why i was reading it. I simply replied that I like philosophy. Some people like painting and music. In this same manner I like philosphy. He then assumed I did not believe in god. I think this is a common assumption.

[catwoman]

Article in US news Matman. It didnt say anybody who is college educated does not believe in God and I didnt either. They "college educated" were the largest group of atheists. 75% of them believed in God until they were enlightened by some college professor. If you were in college then you know that Christians and their views are to keep silent. Ivy leauge schools have the highest amount of atheists in the country. Small line between a genius and idiot.

[Squid]

Article in US news Matman. It didnt say anybody who is college educated does not believe in God and I didnt either. They "college educated" were the largest group of atheists. 75% of them believed in God until they were enlightened by some college professor. If you were in college then you know that Christians and their views are to keep silent. Ivy leauge schools have the highest amount of atheists in the country. Small line between a genius and idiot.

You seem to be offended that other people (in this case, the college educated non-believers) don't embrace your faith in God.

As for your comment "small line between a genius and idiot", I'm a little puzzled. Are you saying that simply because someone doesn't agree with your particular religious views, then they are, by definition, an idiot?

Lastly, can you provide a link to the article or survey that you are referencing? I'd like to see what it says.

[Deathstar 80]

When God decides to provide us with emprical evidence of His existence, I'll believe. Until then, I'll remain a devout agnostic.

It's by faith that you're saved through Jesus Christ. Not by facts. You can look at knowledge, don't get me wrong. I just wanted to tell you God wants you to believe by faith. Besides, say that you had a strange dream or even seen God. Would you believe what you saw, would you tell yourself you just seen an allusion or had an odd dream, or would you maybe use a different explanation? Even if God did prove himself with empirical evidence of his existence, it would be required by us to have faith in him (God).

Have you read about philosophy? If you have or you ever do, you will understand that there are things that exist that we cannot see, hear, etc.

Also, how can we know the truth when we don't know everything? I'm aware that simple scientific discoveries, such as gravity, can be known for sure. Yet, weren't we confident a thousand years ago that the world was flat? As a result of this circulation of proving old theories wrong and supposedly finding the truth in new theories, how can we absolutely know what is truth based on science? This is why I like prophecies from the bible. I suppose the prophecies from the bible are the "proof" you're looking for.

[Squid]

It's by faith that you're saved through Jesus Christ. Not by facts. You can look at knowledge, don't get me wrong. I just wanted to tell you God wants you to believe by faith. Besides, say that you had a strange dream or even seen God. Would you believe what you saw, would you tell yourself you just seen an allusion or had an odd dream, or would you maybe use a different explanation? Even if God did prove himself with empirical evidence of his existence, it would be required by us to have faith in him (God).

Have you read about philosophy? If you have or you ever do, you will understand that there are things that exist that we cannot see, hear, etc.

Also, how can we know the truth when we don't know everything? I'm aware that simple scientific discoveries, such as gravity, can be known for sure. Yet, weren't we confident a thousand years ago that the world was flat? As a result of this circulation of proving old theories wrong and supposedly finding the truth in new theories, how can we absolutely know what is truth based on science? This is why I like prophecies from the bible. I suppose the prophecies from the bible are the "proof" you're looking for.

Thanks for the reply, Deathstar. I know that you are sincere in your faith, and I applaud that. In answer to your question, yes - I have studied philosophy. I had four years of Philosophy in college. The cosmological and teleological arguments that St. Thomas Aquinas put forth, and Matman posted are very typical of the arguments for the existence of God that are taught in universities around the world. The cosmological arguments were really first posited by the early Greek philosophers (Plato and Aristotle), and have been developed more fully throughout history. If you are interested in that line of debate, you might also want to read some of the writings of David Hume, for a counterpoint (the argument against the existence of God, from the teleological point of view).

You're very first line says "by faith you are saved ...". That is an excellent point, and you would have done well to stop there. It is by faith - and faith alone - that one accepts the existence of God.

In my case, my desire to believe is simply not strong enough to overcome my ability to reason. In your case, your desire to believe has allowed you to suspend any need for empirical proof.

Though I do not share your faith, I do respect it. I simply don't agree with your conclusion. There are certainly no hard feelings toward you on my part - and I sincerely hope that you can extend me that same courtesy.

[Matman]

In the 1950's Stanley Miller sought out to create life from in organic matter. He duplicated an atmosphere much like the atmosphere of the earth would have been. He then introduced electrical currents. But in a matter of mere weeks, chemical reactions had produced thirteen of the amino acids necessary for life, showing that these building blocks of proteins could be spawned from the simplest chemicals. However did he show that life could be produced at random events or by design? Where did the inorganic matterial come from in the begining?

[Deathstar 80]

Thanks for the reply, Deathstar. I know that you are sincere in your faith, and I applaud that. In answer to your question, yes - I have studied philosophy. I had four years of Philosophy in college. The cosmological and teleological arguments that St. Thomas Aquinas put forth, and Matman posted are very typical of the arguments for the existence of God that are taught in universities around the world. The cosmological arguments were really first posited by the early Greek philosophers (Plato and Aristotle), and have been developed more fully throughout history. If you are interested in that line of debate, you might also want to read some of the writings of David Hume, for a counterpoint (the argument against the existence of God, from the teleological point of view).

You're very first line says "by faith you are saved ...". That is an excellent point, and you would have done well to stop there. It is by faith - and faith alone - that one accepts the existence of God.

In my case, my desire to believe is simply not strong enough to overcome my ability to reason. In your case, your desire to believe has allowed you to suspend any need for empirical proof.

Though I do not share your faith, I do respect it. I simply don't agree with your conclusion. There are certainly no hard feelings toward you on my part - and I sincerely hope that you can extend me that same courtesy.

Thanks for your courtesy. You said that your desire to believe is simply not strong enough to overcome your ability to reason. You should definitely use reason when deciding on what to believe. Blindly believing in something (whether it just be because you were raised up with that belief, told to believe that, etc.) is obviously very bad to do. Yet, it's dangerous to believe in our own reason as well. If you look at a math problem, it just takes one simple mistake to get a completely wrong answer (Such as accidentally subtracting when you supposed to add. I hate it when I do that!).

Once again, this is why I really like bible prophecy. With the questionable inaccuracy of science (and maybe even philosophy), we can use Bible prophecy to accurately know whether or not the Bible is true.

Where did the inorganic matterial come from in the begining?

This reminds me of what philosophy states. Something can't come from nothing. Therefore, how was the universe made? We must then assume the universe has existed and will exist for an eternity. I'm pretty sure the Bible suggests this.

[TheRealVille]

Once again, this is why I really like bible prophecy. With the questionable inaccuracy of science (and maybe even philosophy), we can use bible prophecy to accurately know whether or not the bible is true.

What are some of the prophesies that are proven true?

[Deathstar 80]

What are some of the prophesies that are proven true?

Israel being remade (it was conquered by Assyria):
-> Matthew 24:32 "32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33)So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (I added a few extra verses to help you better understand. The fig tree represents Israel. Israel was remade in 1948, and from what I understand from these verses, the generation that seen this happen will not pass away. In other words, Jesus is coming soon.)
-> Also Isaiah 49:6 (you may have to read Ch. 49:1-5 to understand this verse better) "6) And he [I think it's God] said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel: ..."
-> There's also Jeremiah 30:3, which I personally think is more clear - "For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it."

Alexander the Great - I was told it was somewhere in Isaiah, but I'm not sure. I couldn't find it.

Jesus being the Messiah - Here are a few:
-> John 19:36-37 "36) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."
-> John 19:28-29 "28) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. 29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth."
Of course, there are many more prophecies I didn't list.

Here's another prophecy:
John 12:32-33 "32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33) This he said, signifying what death he should die." (Jesus was lifted up and died on the cross)
Also, have you ever heard of the statue that Nebudchadnezzar II dreamed of (it's in Daniel, chapter 2)? It's a very neat prophecy to look into.

There are more prophecies to list. I'd like to list some of these prophecies later if you don't mind. I'm simply too lazy to look them up right now. :biggrin: I'll be glad to look them up right now if you ask.

[TheRealVille]

Israel being remade (it was conquered by Assyria):
-> Matthew 24:32 "32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33)So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (I added a few extra verses to help you better understand. The fig tree represents Israel. Israel was remade in 1948, and from what I understand from these verses, the generation that seen this happen will not pass away. In other words, Jesus is coming soon.)
-> Also Isaiah 49:6 (you may have to read Ch. 49:1-5 to understand this verse better) "6) And he [I think it's God] said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel: ..."
-> There's also Jeremiah 30:3, which I personally think is more clear - "For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it."

Alexander the Great - I was told it was somewhere in Isaiah, but I'm not sure. I couldn't find it.

Jesus being the Messiah - Here are a few:
-> John 19:36-37 "36) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37) And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."
-> John 19:28-29 "28) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. 29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth."
Of course, there are many more prophecies I didn't list.

Here's another prophecy:
John 12:32-33 "32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33) This he said, signifying what death he should die." (Jesus was lifted up and died on the cross)
Also, have you ever heard of the statue that Nebudchadnezzar II dreamed of (it's in Daniel, chapter 2)? It's a very neat prophecy to look into.

There are more prophecies to list. I'd like to list some of these prophecies later if you don't mind. I'm simply too lazy to look them up right now. :biggrin: I'll be glad to look them up right now if you ask.

None of these can be proven. Israel has been up and down for centuries.

[Deathstar 80]

None of these can be proven. Israel has been up and down for centuries.

Do you mean Israel is a country that constantly comes and goes? If you look at history, Israel was conquered by Assyria in 722 BC. Israel was made a nation again in 1948 AD. This was during a time when people didn't expect for this to happen as a result of that region being controlled by the Muslim world.

[Squid]

In the 1950's Stanley Miller sought out to create life from in organic matter. He duplicated an atmosphere much like the atmosphere of the earth would have been. He then introduced electrical currents. But in a matter of mere weeks, chemical reactions had produced thirteen of the amino acids necessary for life, showing that these building blocks of proteins could be spawned from the simplest chemicals. However did he show that life could be produced at random events or by design? Where did the inorganic matterial come from in the begining?

Assuming you are truly seeking to understand, I would ask for clarification of the question.

Are you asking about the origin of the universe (i.e. the "Big Bang" or "Oscillating Egg"), or are you asking something else entirely?

[Squid]

You should definitely use reason when deciding on what to believe.

Well, so far, we are on the same page.

Blindly believing in something (whether it just be because you were raised up with that belief, told to believe that, etc.) is obviously very bad to do.

Still looking good.

Yet, it's dangerous to believe in our own reason as well.

... and here we part company. My ability to reason is what allows me to function as a human being. If you wish to study philosophy, you would do well to begin with a thorough understanding of Rene Descartes, his exploration of existentialism, and his famous quote "Cogito, ergo sum".

Once again, this is why I really like bible prophecy. With the questionable inaccuracy of science (and maybe even philosophy), we can use Bible prophecy to accurately know whether or not the Bible is true.

I understand that you place great faith in the Bible. There are a lot of other books (all written by man) that claim to be divinely inspired. Regardless of which book of faith one chooses, the bottom line is that blind faith in the divinity of that book is required to embrace it. Logic must be suspended in order to accept it as the word of God(s). Science is innacurate, and not only admits it, but openly embraces its mistakes in pursuit of knowledge. Philosophy, on the other hand, makes no claims to accuracy. Only religion makes claims of inerrancy.

This reminds me of what philosophy states. Something can't come from nothing.

No. You are confusing the first law of thermondynamics with a philosophy. The first law states that "matter can neither be created nor destroyed". Philosophy makes no such claims.

Therefore, how was the universe made? We must then assume the universe has existed and will exist for an eternity. I'm pretty sure the Bible suggests this.

You are now restating (in your own words) the cosmological argument for the existence of God that Matman posted (from St. Thomas Aquinas). It is the second of the five arguments that Aquinas presented - the need for a First Cause or Prime Mover.

[Matman]

Assuming you are truly seeking to understand, I would ask for clarification of the question.

Are you asking about the origin of the universe (i.e. the "Big Bang" or "Oscillating Egg"), or are you asking something else entirely?

No I classify myself as a student. I'm always reading, researching and learning. I'm asking about before the big bang. There has to be a starting point. However time is relative so maybe theres not a beggining. Take for example a game of pool. A ball is put into motion by the cue ball. The cue ball is put into motion by the pool stick. The pool stick is put into motion by a person. The person is here due to his parents. Parents are here due to grandparents and so on. The bible says it goes back to adam and eve. Wether you believe that or not it should go back to an original human. From there we can go back to basic organisms and amino acids. Where does it end? Actually where does it begin?