[Bob Seger]

Tim Tebow is a professing Christian, obviously not ashamed of the Gospel.

Mohammed Ali gave up a coveted boxing title, gave up millions in potential earnings, opened himself to derision and threats to his life, was put in jail. Why? Because he conscientiously objected to the Viet Nam War, as a member of the Nation of Islam, and as a black man.

Your comparison of Ali to Tebow is misguided. Period.

None of the above make him a hero any more than enduring the criticism and constant media bashing that Tebow goes through.

When you talk about conscientious objectors the first thing that come to my mind is Sgt. Alvin York....He served his country courageously and became America's most decorated war hero. That is the true definition of a hero. As you mentioned Clay would have been in special services to begin with, so was there to object to?


Ted Williams made the exact same sacrifices that Ali did as far as career and money and actually served as a fighter pilot. And did it in 2 different wars...Countless hundreds of other major league players did the same. For that matter Elvis Presley did too, and he was a far bigger star earning far more money than Cassius Clay.

What does the color of Ali's skin have to do with anything? Your analogy speaks loudly that you don't think that he should have been treated equally with everyone else. Just because he was black and a muslim you are saying that he should have been treated special...Don't give me three or paragraphs of gobbelty goop disputing that fact either. I don't care if Ali was green, purple, or blue, he was still a coward. Name one thing that his refusing to go to the army benefited anyone else in this country? NOT ONE DARN THING. Nothing that he did warranted hero status.


He was a selfish coward.

[Bob Seger]

There are those who claim that black folks vote democratic only because of "goodies" offered them. To anyone out there with a shred of objectivity: read the exchanges about Mohammed Ali, with TRT, Granny, and Bob as representative of who the Republican Party must now appeal to. Now, is it only "goodies" that explain it? I think not.

And then read about how low the deeps of this country have dwindled to with the way out there wacko liberals like the Urban Cowboy, who don't have the backbone to stand for anything morally,leading the charge...Those are the birds responsible for this once great nation now striving to see that America will resemble nothing more than a banana republic third world country....That folks is now the democratic party...


And no you are wrong, it's all about the "goodies".

[The Urban Sombrero]

None of the above make him a hero any more than enduring the criticism and constant media bashing that Tebow goes through.

When you talk about conscientious objectors the first thing that come to my mind is Sgt. Alvin York....He served his country courageously and became America's most decorated war hero. That is the true definition of a hero. As you mentioned Clay would have been in special services to begin with, so was there to object to?


Ted Williams made the exact same sacrifices that Ali did as far as career and money and actually served as a fighter pilot. And did it in 2 different wars...Countless hundreds of other major league players did the same. For that matter Elvis Presley did too, and he was a far bigger star earning far more money than Cassius Clay.

What does the color of Ali's skin have to do with anything? Your analogy speaks loudly that you don't think that he should have been treated equally with everyone else. Just because he was black and a muslim you are saying that he should have been treated special...Don't give me three or paragraphs of gobbelty goop disputing that fact either. I don't care if Ali was green, purple, or blue, he was still a coward. Name one thing that his refusing to go to the army benefited anyone else in this country? NOT ONE DARN THING. Nothing that he did warranted hero status.


He was a selfish coward.

The color of Ali's skin had him riding in the back of the bus, barred from eating at the lunch counter, counted as a second class citizen by a country asking him to go serve in a war for a country not granting him justice.

On the one hand, you express a certain hatred and distrust of government. On the other, you express contempt for a man who told that government "No" as a conscientious objector to a war more controversial than any in our history. It actually seems you express contempt for anyone who doesn't share your view of the world. BGR is very generous and gives wide latitude. Other sites would have sent you packing long ago.

[The Urban Sombrero]

And then read about how low the deeps of this country have dwindled to with the way out there wacko liberals like the Urban Cowboy, who don't have the backbone to stand for anything morally,leading the charge...Those are the birds responsible for this once great nation now striving to see that America will resemble nothing more than a banana republic third world country....That folks is now the democratic party...


And no you are wrong, it's all about the "goodies".

Standing up for freedom of conscience and the equality of all under the law may not matter as much, or at all, to you as your personal "rally cry" issues, but, again, to contemptuously spout out stuff like "spineless" and "coward" and all the other vitriol you spew? Again, BGR is generous and gives wide latitude. You take advantage of that.

[The Urban Sombrero]

"America will resemble a... banana republic third world country."

Charles Manson = Hillary Clinton

America = Venezuela

Nah, you're not extremist at all.

[TheRealThing]

The color of Ali's skin had him riding in the back of the bus, barred from eating at the lunch counter, counted as a second class citizen by a country asking him to go serve in a war for a country not granting him justice.

On the one hand, you express a certain hatred and distrust of government. On the other, you express contempt for a man who told that government "No" as a conscientious objector to a war more controversial than any in our history. It actually seems you express contempt for anyone who doesn't share your view of the world. BGR is very generous and gives wide latitude. Other sites would have sent you packing long ago.

The media coverage of Ali was not favorable when he dodged the draft, I know because I heard it. But there was this one fight technique that Ali came up with, (I hated it and so did the media) that Hillary has been using religiously since she left office as Secretary of State. Ali called it the 'Rope-a-Dope.' Former Governor Mike Huckabee calls it dodging the press and stonewalling. But, she's gonna have to make a stand at some point or Trump will out-point her.

[TheRealThing]

"America will resemble a... banana republic third world country."

Charles Manson = Hillary Clinton

America = Venezuela

Nah, you're not extremist at all.

In light of what Zaga has said recently, I would make a suggestion. Some the most vile and dangerous people to ever walk this earth are know as extremists. And we are forfeiting rights left and right, so minus the hyperbole, Seger is right in my book. However, this idea that you can call patriots and veterans who gave for this country extremist, while complaining about what comes your way is a bit disingenuous if you ask me.

[Bob Seger]

The color of Ali's skin had him riding in the back of the bus, barred from eating at the lunch counter, counted as a second class citizen by a country asking him to go serve in a war for a country not granting him justice.

On the one hand, you express a certain hatred and distrust of government. On the other, you express contempt for a man who told that government "No" as a conscientious objector to a war more controversial than any in our history. It actually seems you express contempt for anyone who doesn't share your view of the world. BGR is very generous and gives wide latitude. Other sites would have sent you packing long ago.

Lol, I find you rather amusing Mr. sheep.....Throw a race card out there too. That's what you guys do when someone disagrees. Right? Hatred. Yep you used that one too.


There has not been one other person on here back you up with the Ali being a hero junk....So I guess everyone on here should feel generous, right.

I don't hate Ali..I said he was a great fighter and entertainer...I enjoyed watching him...That however does not dismiss the fact that he was a coward and a draft dodger..Sorry that that upsets you. He paid his debt to society and spent his time behind bars, which he deserved 100%.You still won't own up to your own statement that he would have been in special services. Change your mind on that since it blew up in your face now? What about Ted Williams, Alvin York, and Elvis and all of the others that went and didn't want to go. Black or white. I noticed you didn't want to respond to those examples either.

The thing that I have found out here Cowboy is the ones that profess to be tolerant are generally the most intolerant. The ones that pull the race card are usually the ones who are the racists. The ones who call someone a hater generally are the one guilty of hatred..Not saying that you fit those category's. Just making a statement..

Perhaps you should feel fortunate that you are able to label others and get away with it when someone doesn't agree with your brand of racism, hatred and intolerance.Thanks for your insight...Talk to you later, I know you've got your gig with MSNBC to get back to.


Hmmm?

[The Urban Sombrero]

Lol, I find you rather amusing Mr. sheep.....Throw a race card out there too. That's what you guys do when someone disagrees. Right? Hatred. Yep you used that one too.


There has not been one other person on here back you up with the Ali being a hero junk....So I guess everyone on here should feel generous, right.

I don't hate Ali..I said he was a great fighter and entertainer...I enjoyed watching him...That however does not dismiss the fact that he was a coward and a draft dodger..Sorry that that upsets you. He paid his debt to society and spent his time behind bars, which he deserved 100%.You still won't own up to your own statement that he would have been in special services. Change your mind on that since it blew up in your face now? What about Ted Williams, Alvin York, and Elvis and all of the others that went and didn't want to go. Black or white. I noticed you didn't want to respond to those examples either.

The thing that I have found out here Cowboy is the ones that profess to be tolerant are generally the most intolerant. The ones that pull the race card are usually the ones who are the racists. The ones who call someone a hater generally are the one guilty of hatred..Not saying that you fit those category's. Just making a statement..

Perhaps you should feel fortunate that you are able to label others and get away with it when someone doesn't agree with your brand of racism, hatred and intolerance.


Hmmm?

This seems so obvious: the fact that Ali declined, EVEN THOUGH HE WOULD HAVE HAD LIGHT DUTY, proves the point.

[Bob Seger]

"America will resemble a... banana republic third world country."

Charles Manson = Hillary Clinton

America = Venezuela

Nah, you're not extremist at all.

Dadburnit, you still can't get the Clintons are worse than Manson part right....You always have to make them look better than they are, don't you?

[The Urban Sombrero]

Note: the point about Ali is not about racism, per se. It is about this: to the overwhelming majority of African Americans Mohammed Ali is a hero. Over here, you have a large part of a major political party calling him a "loud-mouthed coward." That is a symbol of a huge gap of trust and understanding. I don't question your patriotism, Bob. I don't question your personal treatment of minorities. I am suggesting your views are extreme, your statements are more hyperbolic than reality.

[Bob Seger]

This seems so obvious: the fact that Ali declined, EVEN THOUGH HE WOULD HAVE HAD LIGHT DUTY, proves the point.

Still does not change the fact he was a selfish draft dodging coward.

Paid his debt to society, so he left the world with a clean slate on that issue as far as I'm concerned.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Still does not change the fact he was a selfish draft dodging coward.

Paid his debt to society, so he left the world with a clean slate on that issue as far as I'm concerned.

"Mohammed Ali was a selfish, draft-dodging coward."

⬆⬆ Here, at least in significant part, is the state of the Republican Party.

[Bob Seger]

Note: the point about Ali is not about racism, per se. It is about this: to the overwhelming majority of African Americans Mohammed Ali is a hero. Over here, you have a large part of a major political party calling him a "loud-mouthed coward." That is a symbol of a huge gap of trust and understanding. I don't question your patriotism, Bob. I don't question your personal treatment of minorities. I am suggesting your views are extreme, your statements are more hyperbolic than reality.

My personal treatment of minorities? Do what? That's one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard....


Point #1 of twisting something around to imply something that doesn't exist....That kind of stuff is what is tearing this country apart at the seams....You sir are 100% guilty of doing your fair share of bringing discord to race relations in this country...It's one thing to disagree on political issues but it's pathetic to inject that junk into a discussion because someone doesn't agree with you..

You ought to be ashamed of yourself...

[Bob Seger]

"Mohammed Ali was a selfish, draft-dodging coward."

⬆⬆ Here, at least in significant part, is the state of the Republican Party.

Perhaps it's more the state of reality and you just see what you want to see.


It is my opinion...don't you allow others to have one of their own? You are the only person that has stated as such about Ali.

Come on now don't be like the rest of your tolerant intolerant liberal brothers and sisters,

[The Urban Sombrero]

Perhaps it's more the state of reality and you just see what you want to see.


It is my opinion...don't you allow others to have one of their own? You are the only person that has stated as such about Ali.

Come on now don't be like the rest of your tolerant intolerant liberal brothers and sisters,

I am disagreeing with your opinion, and holding it up as representative of this thread's heading. Your post, thus, is nonsensical.

[TheRealThing]

Note: the point about Ali is not about racism, per se. It is about this: to the overwhelming majority of African Americans Mohammed Ali is a hero. Over here, you have a large part of a major political party calling him a "loud-mouthed coward." That is a symbol of a huge gap of trust and understanding. I don't question your patriotism, Bob. I don't question your personal treatment of minorities. I am suggesting your views are extreme, your statements are more hyperbolic than reality.

Cassius Clay, a way cooler sounding name than Muhammad Ali IMHO, was treated rather rudely by everybody when he thumbed his nose at the draft board. He was pilloried and scorned by the media, both political parties and the sports world of that day. He was no hero. And yet, as he matured and mellowed America did manage to revere him as a man who got it right later in life, and was therefore embraced by his country in spite of his past.

What political party called him a loud mouthed coward?

[Hoot Gibson]

This seems so obvious: the fact that Ali declined, EVEN THOUGH HE WOULD HAVE HAD LIGHT DUTY, proves the point.

Ali would have missed some huge paydays had he served in the military. As it turned out, Ali missed out on some big purses anyway when every state boxing association refused to grant him a boxing license because of his stand on the draft. So, the fact that Ali might have been assigned "light duty" had he served in the military, is not proof that his motives were pure because there was a large financial incentive to avoid the draft.

You can argue that Ali would have been better off pulling "light duty" than dodging the draft, but Ali had no way of knowing that in advance.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Cassius Clay, a way cooler sounding name than Muhammad Ali IMHO, was treated rather rudely by everybody when he thumbed his nose at the draft board. He was pilloried and scorned by the media, both political parties and the sports world of that day. He was no hero. And yet, as he matured and mellowed America did manage to revere him as a man who got it right later in life, and was therefore embraced by his country in spite of his past.

What political party called him a loud mouthed coward?

He never recanted nor regretted his decision to conscientiously object. He was and is heroic.

Are you following along? Or just wandering in on occasion?

[Bob Seger]

I am disagreeing with your opinion, and holding it up as representative of this thread's heading. Your post, thus, is nonsensical.

Poppycock!!

You are deliberately calling me a racist and a hate monger, in essence because I refuse to agree to your hero status of Clay. I mentioned that I could care less about what Rosa Park's thoughts on him were..I got news for you, that also applies to what my thoughts would be if it involved the thoughts of Howard Cosell, Walter Cronkite, Huntley/Brinkley or Joe Garagiola ..Yet you acted like you couldn't believe that I didn't care what her thoughts were and round about tried to tie that in to someone having racist intentions for anyone to respond in the fashion...I don't need someone else's opinion to sway me into thinking what I already know.

Maybe you don't realize it, but then again, maybe you do, but you are a huge race baiter..I've seen you throw stuff out there more than once trying to entrap someone...As I mentioned before, that is exactly some of the stuff that has thrown this country in racial discord, unseen for decades..You and daddy Barack, need to stop it!!

[TheRealThing]

He never recanted nor regretted his decision to conscientiously object. He was and is heroic.

Are you following along? Or just wandering in on occasion?

Like I said, I was there and I heard all the things said, and read many of the things written about Clay in the newspapers. He was not given a pass, I can tell you that. As Hoot pointed out, the boxing commission denied him legitimacy for a number of years. It is anything but heroic for an able bodied man to refuse serving his country in any time, much less wartime.

Did you serve your country US, or are you borrowing from others who feign self righteous indignation in Ali's name?

[Bob Seger]

Cassius Clay, a way cooler sounding name than Muhammad Ali IMHO, was treated rather rudely by everybody when he thumbed his nose at the draft board. He was pilloried and scorned by the media, both political parties and the sports world of that day. He was no hero. And yet, as he matured and mellowed America did manage to revere him as a man who got it right later in life, and was therefore embraced by his country in spite of his past.

What political party called him a loud mouthed coward?

Yes,which party was that?

[TheRealThing]

Tim Tebow is a professing Christian, obviously not ashamed of the Gospel.

Mohammed Ali gave up a coveted boxing title, gave up millions in potential earnings, opened himself to derision and threats to his life, was put in jail. Why? Because he conscientiously objected to the Viet Nam War, as a member of the Nation of Islam, and as a black man.

Your comparison of Ali to Tebow is misguided. Period.

None of the above make him a hero any more than enduring the criticism and constant media bashing that Tebow goes through.

When you talk about conscientious objectors the first thing that come to my mind is Sgt. Alvin York....He served his country courageously and became America's most decorated war hero. That is the true definition of a hero. As you mentioned Clay would have been in special services to begin with, so was there to object to?


Ted Williams made the exact same sacrifices that Ali did as far as career and money and actually served as a fighter pilot. And did it in 2 different wars...Countless hundreds of other major league players did the same. For that matter Elvis Presley did too, and he was a far bigger star earning far more money than Cassius Clay.

What does the color of Ali's skin have to do with anything? Your analogy speaks loudly that you don't think that he should have been treated equally with everyone else. Just because he was black and a muslim you are saying that he should have been treated special...Don't give me three or paragraphs of gobbelty goop disputing that fact either. I don't care if Ali was green, purple, or blue, he was still a coward. Name one thing that his refusing to go to the army benefited anyone else in this country? NOT ONE DARN THING. Nothing that he did warranted hero status.


He was a selfish coward.

Muhammad Ali was the protégé of Malcolm X, a Black Muslim. Wiki has a good article on the meaning of the whole deal about being a Black Muslim which is cited below, and embodies much of what was out there on Mr Clay in the media back when the story was pertinent. It was a wrenchingly trying time for all concerned and anything but the hearts and flowers representation of the revisionist view.



EXCERPT---
The NOI is an African American political and religious movement, founded in Detroit, Michigan, United States, by Wallace D. Fard Muhammad on July 4, 1930.[2] Its stated goals are to improve the spiritual, mental, social, and economic condition of African Americans in the United States and all of humanity.[3] Critics have described the organization as being black supremacist[4] and antisemitic.[5][6][7] The Southern Poverty Law Center tracks the NOI as a hate group.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam

[The Urban Sombrero]

Like I said, I was there and I heard all the things said, and read many of the things written about Clay in the newspapers. He was not given a pass, I can tell you that. As Hoot pointed out, the boxing commission denied him legitimacy for a number of years. It is anything but heroic for an able bodied man to refuse serving his country in any time, much less wartime.

Did you serve your country US, or are you borrowing from others who feign self righteous indignation in Ali's name?

The draft was not in effect when I was 18, and I did not join the military. I have a son in the Armed Services.

Mohammed Ali was a conscientious objecter. He paid the price. He is a hero to millions of African Americans. I personally think of him as being heroic because he stood on principle and sacrificed what, at the time, could have been multiple years in prison and his entire career, though it did not turn out that way.

I am suggesting that those Republicans that view Ali (since he chose that name, it is disrespectful to call him Cassius Clay) as a "loud mouthed coward" represent to African Americans a reason to vote Democratic.

Bob, you believe Ali to be a "loud mouthed coward." I don't call you a racist. But I know your opinion represents an aspect of right wing Republicanism that is offensive. Thus, "goodies" is a simplistic and self-serving way of explaining the voting of an entire group of people.

TRT, you appear to believe the conscientious objecter provision is null and void if a man be "able bodied."

So, we come to the "state of the Republican Party." To which I say the "Big Tent" is shrinking as it gets yanked further and further right by folks who think along the lines of you fellers.

[Hoot Gibson]

The draft was not in effect when I was 18, and I did not join the military. I have a son in the Armed Services.

Mohammed Ali was a conscientious objecter. He paid the price. He is a hero to millions of African Americans. I personally think of him as being heroic because he stood on principle and sacrificed what, at the time, could have been multiple years in prison and his entire career, though it did not turn out that way.

I am suggesting that those Republicans that view Ali (since he chose that name, it is disrespectful to call him Cassius Clay) as a "loud mouthed coward" represent to African Americans a reason to vote Democratic.

Bob, you believe Ali to be a "loud mouthed coward." I don't call you a racist. But I know your opinion represents an aspect of right wing Republicanism that is offensive. Thus, "goodies" is a simplistic and self-serving way of explaining the voting of an entire group of people.

TRT, you appear to believe the conscientious objecter provision is null and void if a man be "able bodied."

So, we come to the "state of the Republican Party." To which I say the "Big Tent" is shrinking as it gets yanked further and further right by folks who think along the lines of you fellers.

As liberals so often do, you are tarring conservatives in the Republican Party with a broad brush, while white washing those who hold similar views in your own party. Anger at Ali for claiming conscientious objector status was not confined to a single party and for many who felt that anger, it had nothing to do with race. There was a widespread belief that Ali had no moral objection to violence because of his chosen profession. Perhaps there were Quaker boxers in the late 60s who were conscientious objectors, but I do not recall any.

I have much more respect for the conscientious objectors of that era than I do for politicians who dodged the draft - and for the draft dodgers who fled to Canada to escape service. I even had more respect for Ali, despite my skepticism that his claim of being a conscientious objector was sincere. At least Ali paid a price for openly defying the draft, remaining in his home country, and not claiming a deferment for some temporary minor physical ailment.

Those who fled to Canada and hid until they were granted pardons were the most cowardly draft dodgers, followed closely by politicians who used family ties and money to concoct excuses to avoid service.

[Bob Seger]

The draft was not in effect when I was 18, and I did not join the military. I have a son in the Armed Services.

Mohammed Ali was a conscientious objecter. He paid the price. He is a hero to millions of African Americans. I personally think of him as being heroic because he stood on principle and sacrificed what, at the time, could have been multiple years in prison and his entire career, though it did not turn out that way.

I am suggesting that those Republicans that view Ali (since he chose that name, it is disrespectful to call him Cassius Clay) as a "loud mouthed coward" represent to African Americans a reason to vote Democratic.

Bob, you believe Ali to be a "loud mouthed coward." I don't call you a racist. But I know your opinion represents an aspect of right wing Republicanism that is offensive. Thus, "goodies" is a simplistic and self-serving way of explaining the voting of an entire group of people.

TRT, you appear to believe the conscientious objecter provision is null and void if a man be "able bodied."

So, we come to the "state of the Republican Party." To which I say the "Big Tent" is shrinking as it gets yanked further and further right by folks who think along the lines of you fellers.

I never made the statement that he was loud mouthed...But it is a fact that he was and everyone can all agree upon that, be it friend or foe...Was he not known as the "Louisville Lip"? .I did make the statement that he was a coward..Which that he was..So I don't get how telling the truth is such an extreme view. Also, at the time, his name was Cassius Clay.

Apparently you just don't like people that tells the truth.


By the way, tell your son thank you for his service.

[Bob Seger]

As liberals so often do, you are tarring conservatives in the Republican Party with a broad brush, while white washing those who hold similar views in your own party. Anger at Ali for claiming conscientious objector status was not confined to a single party and for many who felt that anger, it had nothing to do with race. There was a widespread belief that Ali had no moral objection to violence because of his chosen profession. Perhaps there were Quaker boxers in the late 60s who were conscientious objectors, but I do not recall any.

I have much more respect for the conscientious objectors of that era than I do for politicians who dodged the draft - and for the draft dodgers who fled to Canada to escape service. I even had more respect for Ali, despite my skepticism that his claim of being a conscientious objector was sincere. At least Ali paid a price for openly defying the draft, remaining in his home country, and not claiming a deferment for some temporary minor physical ailment.

Those who fled to Canada and hid until they were granted pardons were the most cowardly draft dodgers, followed closely by politicians who used family ties and money to concoct excuses to avoid service.

Cant think of a single one, myself.

[Bob Seger]

The draft was not in effect when I was 18, and I did not join the military. I have a son in the Armed Services.

Mohammed Ali was a conscientious objecter. He paid the price. He is a hero to millions of African Americans. I personally think of him as being heroic because he stood on principle and sacrificed what, at the time, could have been multiple years in prison and his entire career, though it did not turn out that way.

I am suggesting that those Republicans that view Ali (since he chose that name, it is disrespectful to call him Cassius Clay) as a "loud mouthed coward" represent to African Americans a reason to vote Democratic.

Bob, you believe Ali to be a "loud mouthed coward." I don't call you a racist. But I know your opinion represents an aspect of right wing Republicanism that is offensive. Thus, "goodies" is a simplistic and self-serving way of explaining the voting of an entire group of people.

TRT, you appear to believe the conscientious objecter provision is null and void if a man be "able bodied."

So, we come to the "state of the Republican Party." To which I say the "Big Tent" is shrinking as it gets yanked further and further right by folks who think along the lines of you fellers.

And that's a good thing.

[TheRealThing]

The draft was not in effect when I was 18, and I did not join the military. I have a son in the Armed Services.

Mohammed Ali was a conscientious objecter. He paid the price. He is a hero to millions of African Americans. I personally think of him as being heroic because he stood on principle and sacrificed what, at the time, could have been multiple years in prison and his entire career, though it did not turn out that way.

I am suggesting that those Republicans that view Ali (since he chose that name, it is disrespectful to call him Cassius Clay) as a "loud mouthed coward" represent to African Americans a reason to vote Democratic.

Bob, you believe Ali to be a "loud mouthed coward." I don't call you a racist. But I know your opinion represents an aspect of right wing Republicanism that is offensive. Thus, "goodies" is a simplistic and self-serving way of explaining the voting of an entire group of people.

TRT, you appear to believe the conscientious objecter provision is null and void if a man be "able bodied."

So, we come to the "state of the Republican Party." To which I say the "Big Tent" is shrinking as it gets yanked further and further right by folks who think along the lines of you fellers.

Sombrero, you appear to be the typical liberal who doggedly persists to argue with people, three in this case, who were alive and kicking adults when the Ali controversy was front page news. We in this land afford people who refuse to fulfill their duty, a certain latitude in the social sense, as long as that refusal is not too open and objectionable an insult. Clay in his day of rebellion and shame was as vocal and defiant as he could have been in the view of the people who watched it all go down.

The term conscientious objector is an undeserved concession, a nicety if you will, which has at times been extended to people who like illegitimate parasites, expect to live free on the blood and service of others. That ingratiating term, was put out on the national level where civility was then the norm. And was BTW, much better treatment than today's Dems routinely dish out to Republicans. But, I digress. Though the dealings with Mr Clay were somewhat gracious in speech, the private opinions and conversation of those of this land were quite different. He was called a draft dodger, and a coward, and much more at the breakfast tables and in the breakrooms of this land.

Malcolm X was a very controversial figure not only in the NOI, but in his life of crime leading up to his religious calling. If you took the time to at all digest the contents of the article cited, that becomes glaringly apparent. IMO, Ali's defiance of his duty was very highly influenced by his ill-advised association with the NOI. An association that he later recanted according to his daughter.

So, there are a few inconsistencies here of which you are guilty. - One party did not in fact, ever refer to Ali as a loud mouthed coward. - And he did later recant events in his earlier and more controversial times. - Thirdly, as I have mentioned in times past, the left is forever storming up some mole hill to plant their flag in the very shadow of Mount Rushmore. You are a viable political entity, nobody denies that. But you're certainly not in the majority yet, and you're certainly not ever going to be in position morally or ethically to apply your revisionist rationale in order to redefine the right. Therefore, all the rules and regulations and activist edicts in the world will not change a single conservative heart.

[The Urban Sombrero]

Sombrero, you appear to be the typical liberal who doggedly persists to argue with people, three in this case, who were alive and kicking adults when the Ali controversy was front page news. We in this land afford people who refuse to fulfill their duty, a certain latitude in the social sense, as long as that refusal is not too open and objectionable an insult. Clay in his day of rebellion and shame was as vocal and defiant as he could have been in the view of the people who watched it all go down.

The term conscientious objector is an undeserved concession, a nicety if you will, which has at times been extended to people who like illegitimate parasites, expect to live free on the blood and service of others. That ingratiating term, was put out on the national level where civility was then the norm. And was BTW, much better treatment than today's Dems routinely dish out to Republicans. But, I digress. Though the dealings with Mr Clay were somewhat gracious in speech, the private opinions and conversation of those of this land were quite different. He was called a draft dodger, and a coward, and much more at the breakfast tables and in the breakrooms of this land.

Malcolm X was a very controversial figure not only in the NOI, but in his life of crime leading up to his religious calling. If you took the time to at all digest the contents of the article cited, that becomes glaringly apparent. IMO, Ali's defiance of his duty was very highly influenced by his ill-advised association with the NOI. An association that he later recanted according to his daughter.

So, there are a few inconsistencies here of which you are guilty. - One party did not in fact, ever refer to Ali as a loud mouthed coward. - And he did later recant events in his earlier and more controversial times. - Thirdly, as I have mentioned in times past, the left is forever storming up some mole hill to plant their flag in the very shadow of Mount Rushmore. You are a viable political entity, nobody denies that. But you're certainly not in the majority yet, and you're certainly not ever going to be in position morally or ethically to apply your revisionist rationale in order to redefine the right. Therefore, all the rules and regulations and activist edicts in the world will not change a single conservative heart.

At the time, Mohammed Ali was a conscientious objector. At the time, he was called many names. The term "draft dodging coward" has been applied in this thread, circa 2016.

The premise that Mohammed Ali was and is viewed as taking a heroic stand, as being a hero, within the African American community, then and now, is not revisionist.

The premise that calling Ali a "draft dodging coward" will not create trust for one in the African American community is not revisionist. Nor is the idea that "get my goodies" is the reason African Americans overwhelmingly vote Democratic.

The reach back into the actual time of Ali's decision, and the mooning over actually being there? The reference to the Nation of Islam and Malcolm X? Mohammed Ali always contended the decision to conscientiously object was his, and his alone.

The latest polls show the race tightening. With Johnson and Stein together, let's say, grabbing collectively 13% of the vote, aggregate polls give Clinton around a 46% to 41% edge. It is likely that whomever wins will not push over 50%. The "Big Tent" is a shrinking one, a white one.