[The Guru]

I don't want to bash anyone and certainly am not trying too.
IMHO, this loss for the Tigers was a result from the entire season, not just one game. I am not blaming individuals, players or coaches or parents. Blame, if needed to be placed, should be on the whole lot!
Can it be fixed befor next season....IMO probably not.
I am going to give an example, and I am sure there are some that will disagree.
We have a number of players that say might strike out or get picked off or any number of numbnuts things we have done over the past few years, anyway, when the players return to the dugout, they take off their helmet and throw, kick, slam them! that shows little respect for them, their team, coaches and parents to act in such a way. What happens to them? Basically nothing! Sure they might get yelled at sometimes. But they do it the next time as well. Why? Because our coaching staff has no discipline over them and they have little or any respect or fear of their coaches. Who's fault is it? everyone involved. Can it be repaired, IMO, no. Like I said, this has gone on for the last few years and if the coaches try and have a do-over, then the kids will just roll their eyes. they might not throw another helmet, but it won't be out of fear, respect or trust.

Trust.....now there is a word....
This team has missed the boat completely when it comes to trust. They don't trust themselves, their teammates or their coaches.

So do you see my point?

Would a new coaching staff help? I dunno.
Would it help if some kids transferred? I dunno.
Would it help if parrents were barred from practices and games? I dunno.
Should we scrap the baseball program altogether? H... NO!

Look...IMO, The problems with this team are deep.
We as parents, Coaches and Players will have to have thicker skin, and work together to get through this. Wether it works out or not.
We had some good times this year, but as a whole....it wasn't a fun year.
My son will be back next year for his senior season, I hope to see everyone then.

[baseballrulz]

I do think the school system needs to help all sports, not just their favorite one. I know for fact baseball gets nothing compared to basketball. These sports help keep children focused and out of trouble. If the children are willing to give all their time and hearts to a sport, I think the school system should back them up completely.
For the coach of Paintsville baseball, I think he has done a good job for the few years he has been there. I think anyone would get a bad rep for playing family members, whether the player be an ace or not. People have to have something to gripe about. Nobody could coach any sport, from t-ball to college, without having complaints. That is something that all coaches deal with, this one just happens to be everyones focus of attention. And on the other hand, the coach does need to do whatever is right and not let anyone make him do what is wrong, for his sake and all the players sake. Coaching has to be a hard job, but you are doing this for the players, you have to remember that. Look over all the rumors, the bashing and the polotics, and get to the people that count, the students, the players, the ones that give all their hearts and sweat to this sport. Their the ones that count, nobody else, just the kids!

[Lisa Douglas]

As far as this thread goes, it's way off base. There is nothing left to say about a game that happened (4) days ago. Someone please shut this one down. If folks want to discuss anything else, a new thread would be the very place to begin.

[jchsrulz]

Great post Big Jim!!!

[Big Jim]

I don't want to bash anyone and certainly am not trying too.
IMHO, this loss for the Tigers was a result from the entire season, not just one game. I am not blaming individuals, players or coaches or parents. Blame, if needed to be placed, should be on the whole lot!
Can it be fixed befor next season....IMO probably not.
I am going to give an example, and I am sure there are some that will disagree.
We have a number of players that say might strike out or get picked off or any number of numbnuts things we have done over the past few years, anyway, when the players return to the dugout, they take off their helmet and throw, kick, slam them! that shows little respect for them, their team, coaches and parents to act in such a way. What happens to them? Basically nothing! Sure they might get yelled at sometimes. But they do it the next time as well. Why? Because our coaching staff has no discipline over them and they have little or any respect or fear of their coaches. Who's fault is it? everyone involved. Can it be repaired, IMO, no. Like I said, this has gone on for the last few years and if the coaches try and have a do-over, then the kids will just roll their eyes. they might not throw another helmet, but it won't be out of fear, respect or trust.

Trust.....now there is a word....
This team has missed the boat completely when it comes to trust. They don't trust themselves, their teammates or their coaches.

So do you see my point?

Would a new coaching staff help? I dunno.
Would it help if some kids transferred? I dunno.
Would it help if parrents were barred from practices and games? I dunno.
Should we scrap the baseball program altogether? H... NO!

Look...IMO, The problems with this team are deep.
We as parents, Coaches and Players will have to have thicker skin, and work together to get through this. Wether it works out or not.
We had some good times this year, but as a whole....it wasn't a fun year.
My son will be back next year for his senior season, I hope to see everyone then.

Great Post B,

You are an example of what I hope everybody can, at least consider, and that's rational thought.

I understand I'm talking about peoples kids, but that's what makes your post so important. The questions you pose, are the kind of discussion that can be constructive and appears to have your kid, the program and even poor Tucks' situation considered.

I just get a little fired up when people get railed on that I'm close to. Yes, I may not live in the P, but my roots run deep. Tucker is one of mine. ANYBODY that knows me knows I don't care if I'm criticized, or anybody else for that matter, as long as it's fair.

I want what everybody else would want...I just want it get it a different way, that's all.

[JackRabbitSlim]

Great Post B,

You are an example of what I hope everybody can, at least consider, and that's rational thought.

I understand I'm talking about peoples kids, but that's what makes your post so important. The questions you pose, are the kind of discussion that can be constructive and appears to have your kid, the program and even poor Tucks' situation considered.

I just get a little fired up when people get railed on that I'm close to. Yes, I may not live in the P, but my roots run deep. Tucker is one of mine. ANYBODY that knows me knows I don't care if I'm criticized, or anybody else for that matter, as long as it's fair.

I want what everybody else would want...I just want it get it a different way, that's all.

I agree with all or atleast most of what you all are saying. However, I do think that Tucker is subject to a little bit of critizism due to the fact that he arguabally had the best team in the region the past three years, and failed to bring home the regional championship. Sure you have to point to the kids for not showing up, but not showing up three years in a row? I mean some of that needs to fall on the coaches shoulders. Every good coach I have ever had in my life would always tell us, the players get credit for the wins, and the coach gets credit for the loss. When your talking about post season games that you are suppose to win year in year out, then it does become critical to whom gets the blame.

[Mr.Kimball]

I agree with all or atleast most of what you all are saying. sHowever, I do think that Tucker is subject to a little bit of critizism due to the fact that he arguabally had the best team in the region the past three year, and failed to bring home the regional championship. Sure you have to point to the kids for not showing up, but not showing up three years in a row? I mean some of that needs to fall on the coaches shoulders. Every good coach I have ever had in my life would always tell us, the players get credit for the wins, and the coach gets credit for the loss. When your talking about post season games that you are suppose to win year in year out, then it does become critical to whom gets the blame.

I'm going to contadict that just slightly. I think that Paintsville has had just as good as talent as anybody in the region, and had very much of a chance to win the regional title for the last 6 or 7 years actually, but that is about where I think it lays. Yeah they probably should have won the region 2 years ago, before the meltdown in the 7th inning of the championship game. And then last year I dont think there was a huge difference in talent between JC, LC , and Paintsville. I do think that the team with the best pitching staff came out on top, and lets face it, that's what the game really boils down to in the end. This year I think the district came out exactly as is should have. I felt all along that JC was going to be the second best team in the district talent wise, especially with Conley on the hill. I realize that not everyone is going to agree with my accessment of this year , but if you go postion by postion show me the vast differences in talent between JC and Paintsville. All you will see is slight differences going either way when you do the comparisons. The loss of Pugh, Watkins, Miller, and Sublett was subject to be a huge loss, and it did indeed prove just exactly that. That was a huge loss both on the mound and offensively. Lets face it, Lawrence County has by far the most talented group this year. If they dont win it all this year, that will be the upset story.

I know that a first round exit is always tough to accept when you have a good group of kids(been there), but in reality I dont think there has been any really huge upsets in the last three years. Paintsville should have won 2 years ago, just based on the situation they were in in the last inning, but SC was not that bad of a team that year either. At least in my opinion Paintsville was not head and shoulders better. Better maybe, but in a game where the best team does not always win, not a distinct difference like there is with Lawrence Co. this year.

I dont have the first clue as to all of the variables that plays into whatever criticism that the current staff may receive, it could be justifiable, it could not be, not in a position to say either way, but if you are going to make the statement that based on having talent and not winning it, you have to make the same statement about Charlie Adkins as well, because he fell short several times himself since 2001. I do think that a couple of years he had the best talent in the region, and in '03 he was beaten in the first round of the district as well. Sometimes it just happens.

[JackRabbitSlim]

I'm going to contadict that just slightly. I think that Paintsville has had just as good as talent as anybody in the region, and had very much of a chance to win the regional title for the last 6 or 7 years actually, but that is about where I think it lays. Yeah they probably should have won the region 2 years ago, before the meltdown in the 7th inning of the championship game. And then last year I dont think there was a huge difference in talent between JC, LC , and Paintsville. I do think that the team with the best pitching staff came out on top, and lets face it, that's what the game really boils down to in the end. This year I think the district came out exactly as is should have. I felt all along that JC was going to be the second best team in the district talent wise, especially with Conley on the hill. I realize that not everyone is going to agree with my accessment of this year , but if you go postion by postion show me the vast differences in talent between JC and Paintsville. All you will see is slight differences going either way when you do the comparisons. The loss of Pugh, Watkins, Miller, and Sublett was subject to be a huge loss, and it did indeed prove just exactly that. That was a huge loss both on the mound and offensively. Lets face it, Lawrence County has by far the most talented group this year. If they dont win it all this year, that will be the upset story.

I know that a first round exit is always tough to accept when you have a good group of kids(been there), but in reality I dont think there has been any really huge upsets in the last three years. Paintsville should have won 2 years ago, just based on the situation they were in in the last inning, but SC was not that bad of a team that year either. At least in my opinion Paintsville was not head and shoulders better. Better maybe, but in a game where the best team does not always win, not a distinct difference like there is with Lawrence Co. this year.

I dont have the first clue as to all of the variables that plays into whatever criticism that the current staff may receive, it could be justifiable, it could not be, not in a position to say either way, but if you are going to make the statement that based on having talent and not winning it, you have to make the same statement about Charlie Adkins as well, because he fell short several times himself since 2001. I do think that a couple of years he had the best talent in the region, and in '03 he was beaten in the first round of the district as well. Sometimes it just happens.

I will agree with you on pretty much all of what you said, but on different levels. Just for sake of argument, how dare you contradict me? haha!:eek:

Two years ago, even you must admit that it was indeed a coacing blunder that cost them the regional championship that year? Now last year with overall talent I do think they were better than JC, and possibly LC as well. They were not physically or mentally ready to play that game last year, and JC flat out-coached Paintsville. This year I will give you a lot of credit, you called the fact that JC would be there in the end, and if you go back I think I agreed with you , haha! Charlie had a lot of year where he could have easily been regional champions, but blew it. I think that this year was the same with Paintsville as last year. Position by position you may be right on that, but I do feel that Grimm is overall a better talent on the mound. Conley was excellent that night and he was the better pitcher that night, but I think in the overall scheme of things Grimm is the better pitcher. However, that goes back to my point on the fact that Paintsville was not physically or mentally ready to take on JC this year, and they got out-coached. Because of that I will have to put the blame on the coach. I feel like if they would have came in better prepared they could have beat JC. JC took them out of their game early and it was over.

In reponse to their talent level. I agree it has been as good or better than everybody in the region. So wouldn't that lead you to believe that it would have to come down to coaching? If they were even or better than the other teams, then it should come down to whom is better prepared for each opponent don't you think?

[Big Jim]

I agree with all or atleast most of what you all are saying. However, I do think that Tucker is subject to a little bit of critizism due to the fact that he arguabally had the best team in the region the past three years, and failed to bring home the regional championship. Sure you have to point to the kids for not showing up, but not showing up three years in a row? I mean some of that needs to fall on the coaches shoulders. Every good coach I have ever had in my life would always tell us, the players get credit for the wins, and the coach gets credit for the loss. When your talking about post season games that you are suppose to win year in year out, then it does become critical to whom gets the blame.

Certainly, I wouldn't argue that anybody is above criticism in that position. I said as much.

It should be fair...like the criticism the Guru gave. I'll go for that.

[Big Jim]

Also, I keep hearing about a coaching blunder 2 years ago.

Is that the Daniel Pugh in relief game?

If so, that's exactly the unfair hanging of a criticism that I'm talking about. BOGUS.

You can't lay that loss on Tuck, and to do so proves my original point beyond a shadow of a doubt.

If we're not talking about that game, sorry.

[Mr.Kimball]

I will agree with you on pretty much all of what you said, but on different levels. Just for sake of argument, how dare you contradict me? haha!:eek:

Two years ago, even you must admit that it was indeed a coacing blunder that cost them the regional championship that year? Now last year with overall talent I do think they were better than JC, and possibly LC as well. They were not physically or mentally ready to play that game last year, and JC flat out-coached Paintsville. This year I will give you a lot of credit, you called the fact that JC would be there in the end, and if you go back I think I agreed with you , haha! Charlie had a lot of year where he could have easily been regional champions, but blew it. I think that this year was the same with Paintsville as last year. Position by position you may be right on that, but I do feel that Grimm is overall a better talent on the mound. Conley was excellent that night and he was the better pitcher that night, but I think in the overall scheme of things Grimm is the better pitcher. However, that goes back to my point on the fact that Paintsville was not physically or mentally ready to take on JC this year, and they got out-coached. Because of that I will have to put the blame on the coach. I feel like if they would have came in better prepared they could have beat JC. JC took them out of their game early and it was over.

In reponse to their talent level. I agree it has been as good or better than everybody in the region. So wouldn't that lead you to believe that it would have to come down to coaching? If they were even or better than the other teams, then it should come down to whom is better prepared for each opponent don't you think?

Like I said I was just contradicting slightly.

Last year I think that it was very similar to this year. Grimm did not pitch well and was knocked out early. This year he finished the game , but for all intents and purposes was technically knocked out early as well. If you remember last year even with the big lead that JC jumped out with, Paintsville hit Fyffe pretty good and rallied and tied the game to later on to send it to extra innings. Starting pitching it what spelled doom for Paintsville both last year and this year. Like I said I am in no position to say coaching had anything to do with anything that has happened for Paintsville since Tucker took over, because I honestly dont know, but lets just tell it like it is, again it was starting pitching that led to the early exit the last two seasons. Perhaps there are other factors that played into regular season play, like I said, I know nothing about that, but if your pitchers cant stop the opponents, chances are you are not going to win. Overall better talent on the mound, has to be able to win the big ones and be able to perform on the big stage. You have to be able to"clear the mechanism." Again, PITCHING WINS baseball games. Granted Grimm and Paintsville, 2 years ago, was in the driver's seat when he was removed but you also have to keep in mind that Pugh had the best stats on the team, pitching wise that season,and was lights out when he hit the mound all season long in the closer's role. I wouldn't say that Grimm was replaced by any slouch. Sometimes things just dont work out.

As far as mental readiness , I think that Bill Mike also had some problems with a big core of the players that are being mentioned. Remember it was not until their senior seasons that he was able to win the regional title in basketball with them, and it is even argueable if he still would have been able to do so, if it were not for the transfer of Justin Murray.. Perhaps the blame is being placed in the wrong area and there are other reasons why they could not be "preparable" . Perhaps, it's just something to ponder on.

[Midee1]

Looks like this is a good ending point for this one. It has strayed from the topic at hand.